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Are Agnostics Welcome Here?

Nicole Friedman said:
Please see my response about the flying spaghetti monster:} I wish unicorns existed!
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Okay, what if we focus on gods that have been or are believed to exist?

It sounds as though you are agnostic about Yahweh specifically (I'm not using his name to offend here, but as a comparison to the other gods I am about to mention). You say you are at least partly influenced by your husband who is returning to his Jewish roots.

Would you refuse to say that Zeus, Thor and Ganesh do not exist? Or are you comfortable in saying that Zeus, Thor and Ganesh do not exist? Why or why not? What makes them different? Would you consider yourself agnostic regarding Zeus, Thor and Ganesh? Or would you simply say, "I don't believe in them?"

Or if you were to lean towards belief, would you only go so far as a deist position? What is your opinion of the possibility of many gods?
 
Nicole Friedman said:
Reading through many of the threads on this forum, I am honestly wondering how posters on this site feel about agnostics, particularly agnostics with "hope" that there is an intelligent force in the universe.
For the record, I consider myself to be a very rational thinker. I cannot commit myself to saying that G-d exists 100% because I have no tangible proof. However, I refuse to say that G-d does not exist for the same reason. Also, I honestly hope that there is some intelligent, good force in this universe; I admit my unscientific bias but even Einstein believed that there was something behind all of this... which leads me back to my thread topic "Are agnostics welcome here?"
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Are you asking because you hope that agnostics are welcome here, or are you really asking because you hope that you are welcome here ?

:)
 
Leumas said:
I would like you to comment on something which has been already asked…but I want to add a few things to it.

In Hebrew the name YHWH יהוה when encountered in the scriptures is never read but the word Adonai is sounded out in its place.

However it is written out as YHWH יהוה and since Hebrew never had vowels until the Masoretic text no one ever knew which vowels are in fact to be used. Nevertheless when YHWH is written out with vowels it is written out fully as YeHoWaH יְהֹוָה.

Of course the practice is to still pronounce it as Adonai despite it being written out in full.

Now, the reason for the practice is to avoid sounding out the holy name of YHWH. But words like Elohim and Shaddai and others are pronounced as they are written and written as they are pronounced.

So the question becomes ….why do you write the word God out as G-d? The word god is not a Hebrew word….it is not the name of YHWH that cannot be pronounced AND….and this is most interesting….even if you did not want to pronounce it why not write it out as God in full just as it is done in Hebrew where YHWH is written out in full as YeHoWaH.


To me it is very peculiar that an agnostic would find it compelling to DISTORT all forms and practices to write out a totally meaningless distortion of the word God which has no bearing whatsoever on anything to do with any other practices.

So are you really an Agnostic? Prove it and write out the word God in your next post…..no one is asking you to sound it out….just write it out ….just like the word YeHoWaH is written out in many places.

In any case if anything the word God in English corresponds to the word Elohim אֱלהִים and not YHWH…..and Elohim is always sounded out as is written and is written in full.

Also the English word God has nothing to do with Hebrew and thus YHWH is not going to mind at all if you write out or sound out the word God since that is not his name in the first place.

So are you a Fundamentalist Theistic agnostic who is afraid to write out the word God?
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Are you serious? I prefer to write G-d like this. If you want to label me a theist so be it. I've already said that it's what I'm comfortable with. I also already said that while I'm agnostic, I still have hope. And finally, I do not have to prove anything to you. I am open to friendly debate, but I do not need to be attacked as some "secret theist" when I've been very open about my beliefs.
 
Robert Oz said:
Okay, what if we focus on gods that have been or are believed to exist?

It sounds as though you are agnostic about Yahweh specifically (I'm not using his name to offend here, but as a comparison to the other gods I am about to mention). You say you are at least partly influenced by your husband who is returning to his Jewish roots.

Would you refuse to say that Zeus, Thor and Ganesh do not exist? Or are you comfortable in saying that Zeus, Thor and Ganesh do not exist? Why or why not? What makes them different? Would you consider yourself agnostic regarding Zeus, Thor and Ganesh? Or would you simply say, "I don't believe in them?"

Or if you were to lean towards belief, would you only go so far as a deist position? What is your opinion of the possibility of many gods?
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Zeus and Thor were Gods of a polytheistic pantheon. When I refer to my agnosticism, I am talking about one G-d. While I may have stated my Jewish cultural roots, when I say "G-d" I'm not just referring to a Biblical G-d but whatever may be "out there".
 
Nicole Friedman said:
I understand that:} However, I never said that I have empirical evidence of G-d's existence, aside from some interesting quandries presented by quantum physics. (The old someone has to be watching an electron for it to exist scenario). I personally believe that when it comes down to G-d, it's about faith and philosophy- if you believe in G-d, do you really need empirical evidence? I know that is obviously not enough to satisfy most people who call themselves skeptics, but that is probably the reason that this debate will never die. Personally I do not believe that this debate will ever be settled in anyone's lifetime. Why? Let's take the big bang. We know it happened but we do not yet know its cause or what (if anything) came before it. Let's say that one day we do find an answer to the cause or what came before it... but then what came before that? Either our universe had a beginning or it's always been... either way we may always be left with more and more questions. Can we ever find evidence or proof in the future that satisfies those questions and prove without a doubt that G-d doesn't exist? Anything is possible- I just highly doubt that will ever happen.
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You're wrong on several points here .... but to address each one would cause a massive derail of your own thread .... (like the observer with an electron, the two options you give for the time before the Big Bang, etc)
 
Nicole Friedman said:
Are you serious? I prefer to write G-d like this. If you want to label me a theist so be it. I've already said that it's what I'm comfortable with. I also already said that while I'm agnostic, I still have hope. And finally, I do not have to prove anything to you. I am open to friendly debate, but I do not need to be attacked as some "secret theist" when I've been very open about my beliefs.
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From your response here .... it would seem that you might be trolling for trolls. In that case, you've come to the right place.

This part of the forum is often a troll dancefloor :)
 
Nicole Friedman said:
Zeus and Thor were Gods of a polytheistic pantheon. When I refer to my agnosticism, I am talking about one G-d. While I may have stated my Jewish cultural roots, when I say "G-d" I'm not just referring to a Biblical G-d but whatever may be "out there".
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Please respect my sensibilities. It's Z-s and Th-r.
 
Nicole Friedman said:
Zeus and Thor were Gods of a polytheistic pantheon. When I refer to my agnosticism, I am talking about one G-d. While I may have stated my Jewish cultural roots, when I say "G-d" I'm not just referring to a Biblical G-d but whatever may be "out there".
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Why are multiple gods off the table? What is the basis for a belief that IF gods exist, there can be only one? How can an agnostic reach such a conclusion? By definition, an agnostic does not know anything about the potential god or gods he or she is agnostic about.

It again sounds as though you are not so much agnostic about gods, but agnostic about the Judeo-Christian god (i.e. the god of monotheistic religions).

Note, I am not doubting or attacking your agnosticism. I am genuinely curious and my posts should be taken as friendly debate.
 
Trent Wray said:
From your response here .... it would seem that you might be trolling for trolls. In that case, you've come to the right place.

This part of the forum is often a troll dancefloor :)
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For those whose troll senses may be tingling, may I invite you to check out the circumcision thread?
 
Nicole Friedman said:
I am open to friendly debate, but I do not need to be attacked as some "secret theist" when I've been very open about my beliefs.
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I've been called one also. It's kind of startling to think people don't take you at your word (I'm Buddhist/atheist, btw).

But then you'll run across people who do say they don't believe in God, only to betray that non-belief in their posts.

It's nothing personal. People around here are quite suspicious after seeing it happen time and time again.
 
Nicole Friedman said:
Most of my life I've been an empiricist; I like to be able to see evidence for something before believing in it, no matter what it is. Perhaps this was rebellion as I grew up with a mother who believed in everything paranormal and spiritual:}
I recently got married to a man who I love more than life. He has been returning to his Jewish roots and while extremely scientific oriented, he is without a doubt a believer in G-d. Is he influencing my views? Of course, but due to my skeptical nature, I may be stuck in agnostic limbo for a while longer.
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Mazel tov and long and happy life together. Not religious myself but have been to a load of Bars and Bats and weddings and related with my wife's relatives and others. And introduced to great kosher foods in DC/Baltimore/Norfolk area. Not to mention (though I will) Ft. Lauderdale/Miami
(and, not to mention great Chinese and Indian food in same areas!).
 
Nicole Friedman said:
Are you serious? I prefer to write G-d like this. If you want to label me a theist so be it. I've already said that it's what I'm comfortable with. I also already said that while I'm agnostic, I still have hope. And finally, I do not have to prove anything to you. I am open to friendly debate, but I do not need to be attacked as some "secret theist" when I've been very open about my beliefs.
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No attack intended and no labeling purposed. Just trying to establish where you are on the SPECTRUM from Fundamentalist to Atheist.

If anything I was also trying to help you to INTROSPECT and find out where you are.

If you are more comfortable to distort an English word into some Hebrew tradition because of PERCEIVED taboo instilled into you from youth, and are unable to listen to reasoning as to why this distortion is in fact meaningless and pointless then your agnosticism is way to the right side on the spectrum.

I am not attacking or accusing or labeling….just trying to establish where you stand…..and maybe also make you think about it too.

I just explained to you why spelling out God as G-d is a totally meaningless practice. The reasoning behind it is utterly UNSOUND and fundamentalist to the point of the ridiculous.

If you are unwilling to accept that….jolly well….it is up to you. But maybe you would like to INTROSPECT as to why you are unwilling or unable to write out the word God properly as it ought to be written?

I am not saying that you HAVE TO write it that way….. you are free and I am not a despot. I am not ORDERING you to think about it either. I am just engaging in a debate about a peculiar and in my opinion misguided practice that reflects a level of fundamentalism and fear of a PARTICULAR DEITY called YHWH to the extent where even writing out God is frightful because of this despotic deity.

I am sure you know that the word YeHoWaH is written out in full when vowels are used and there is no taboo as to writing it out. The taboo is only in sounding it. Added with the fact that God is not a Hebrew word neither in sound or in writing, and it is not the name of YHWH then I cannot see how an agnostic can still fear to write out God?

But please go ahead….it is your prerogative….but it is also my prerogative to now think that you are quite more theistic than you are atheistic.

No pejorative intentions whatsoever….just establishing where you stand….that is all.
 
citizenzen said:
If I wanted to look for an opinion on physics, Einstein would be a good choice.

But I can't for the life of me understand why he'd be the right person to ask about God.
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Yup. Issac Newton is considered by many to be even more brilliant than Einstein. But he was also a dyed in the wool hardcore theist. Just because someone is very perceptive in one area doesn't mean they may not wear blinders in another.

Not being able to prove the existence of something that is not empirical doesn't really hold water anyway. The burden of evidence is on the claimant. Remember, IF that thing does not exist not only will it be impossible to prove, it is no easier - it's even harder - to disprove the existence of it. Because if one is willing to accept a claim of something that cannot be shown to exist, you would have to 'disprove' and and every of thousands of claims. Otherwise they'll say,"You missed one. You haven't disproved THIS aspect yet". And if you proceed to do that they can just as easily willy-nilly make up another one and claim its a 'revelation' and you're off again on the endless treadmill.

If you're trying to use science as a means of trying to navigate the issue you have start with the null-hypothesis when it comes to something that is not demonstrated to be a true. That is, it is ignored and considered non-existent until solid, credible evidence shows that it does indeed exist, or there is at least some reasons to believe it does. And then, if over time, if more evidence does not pile up and lead to a conclusion across the board that the phenomenon is true experimentally by demonstrating itself elsewhere in other parts of science, then back into the null-hypothesis bin with it. This is why science does not waste time considering the effects that fairies, gods, demons, telekinesis and other suchlike might have on experiment or observation.

Good luck with the unicorns though, I agree they'd be fun to have around.
 
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