• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Are Agnostics Welcome Here?

Trent Wray said:
And this is exactly the glory of reality ... it speaks for itself, and what is real or not real has nothing to do with popularity contests, or whether someone likes reality or not, or whether reality does a good job at marketing, flirting, appealing to emotions, "winning you over", etc and so forth.

The chair either exists in a practical sense or it doesn't. When it comes to "god" ... some are content to guess, while others want that god to speak for itself and they don't look at the believers to make up their minds for them.

Still others simply want to be able to walk into a shopping mall, and have the vendors convince them of why they should buy their products. If the vendors do a good job, they will buy their products. If they don't, they don't. In that case, the product is irrelevant ... and you might end up buying crap from a really attractive person, when you could buy something of value from a complete a$$h01e but you miss that opportunity because you value being "stroked" over being told the truth.

I find that what we value and the way we value it often determines what we believe. If your beliefs rest on others doing a good job of marketing and making you feel good, then what you value is linked to what appeals to you and whether or not others do a good job of convincing you and how you justify that. In other words, who can feed your need for attention and what kind of attention you desire :) However, if what you value is based on reality speaking for itself, then whether or not others are intelligent, stupid, falling at your feet to convince you or running from you with the prize will be irrelevant ... reality will speak for itself. You only need to accept what it's saying, so to speak.
Click to expand...

I am new to this forum and I just wanted to tell you that I really enjoy your posts. They are very thoughtful and often pretty funny too!
 
On a windows system you can install an additional keyboard mapping from the system setup. It is called "United States International".

This will then put an icon in your system tray area (lower right corner).

When you activate this keyboard mapping you will be able to maintain your standard vowels but also easily type accented ones and other special characters.

But with one little change...... the " and ' can be used to create the é á ú ü ë ä ó ö etc. by typing the ' or " and then the vowel. One problem is that if you want just the ' or " you need to type a consonant after it or a space.

Typing the ~ before an n will result in ñ.

The inverted ! (¡) is done with an ctl+alt+!

the ¿ is done with a ctrl+alt+?

ô is doen with ^ and then an o and so forth.

I am not sure if the Mac does the same thing.

To install the US-International keyboard mapping go to
Control Panel
then select "Clock, Language and Region"
then select "Regional and Language Options"
This will bring up a Dialog Box

One of the tabs is called "Keyboards and Language"
Select it

In that page there is a button called "Change Keyboards"

Click that

That will bring up another dialog box

There is a button there that says "Add"

Click that and from the list that pops up select English (United States) and from the that check the "United States International"


Press "Ok" and then "Apply" etc.


Now you should have the original keyboard and the new one.

On the system tray area (Lower right corner) there is now an icon that looks like a keyboard.

You can use that to select which mapping you want to be active.

Once in any program where you need to type the accented characters use that icon to select the "US International" and use the procedure outlined above to type á é í ó ú ä ë ï ö ü â ê î ô û ñ ¡ ¿

By the way you can also use the Ctrl+Alt with the vowels to get á é í ó ú
 
Leumas said:
Nicole,

I also very much suggest that you watch this video series.

It is a set of many videos telling the story of a very fundamentalist guy who slowly through REASON and skepticism turned into an agnostic and then how he went all the way to atheist.

The story is VERY POWERFUL and touching as well as VERY WELL DONE.

Please take the time to watch the whole set. The link is to the first in the set and the videos should flow automatically into the next part once one part is finished.

But....really Nicole..... I think the most irrefutable rebuttal to YHWH and Judaism is this book.... I hope you can actually spend the time to read at least the first 8 parts of it.

ALSO..... I hope you can make the effort to read these books:



The stories about loss of faith are Christian....however you will find them very relevant to Judaism too.





Click to expand...

Thanks for sharing those videos. I enjoyed them and found them very interesting. Have you seen the Jason Beghe interview where he talks about his deconversion from Scientology? Here's a link:
Check out this video on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHb0BZyF5Ok&feature=youtube_gdata_player
 
Nicole Friedman said:
You're probably right. The more I read posts by atheists on here, the more I want to believe in God:} It's funny; I don't think it's even the competitive spirit in the spirit of the debate- something is touching a nerve with me. I'm not there yet though as I have too many doubts and questions; therefore I'm still an agnostic. I never took agnosticism to mean that you need to be "exactly in the middle". I think that it's only natural for a person to alter their beliefs throughout their life.
Click to expand...

You may like the discussion board at Skeptic.com better. There are more Agnostics there and the debates don't (usually) get as "intense" as on here.
A word of advice....Whatever you do, don't go to the Pharnygula forums and post. I love that website but if you find it too abrasive here then you really wouldn't like it there, lol.
I hope you find the answers you seek and I hope you choose to stick it out on this forum. There are a lot of nice, intelligent, thoughtful people on here.
 
Originally Posted by Nicole Friedman View Post
You're probably right. The more I read posts by atheists on here, the more I want to believe in God:} It's funny; I don't think it's even the competitive spirit in the spirit of the debate- something is touching a nerve with me. I'm not there yet though as I have too many doubts and questions; therefore I'm still an agnostic. I never took agnosticism to mean that you need to be "exactly in the middle". I think that it's only natural for a person to alter their beliefs throughout their life.
Click to expand...
Interesting, thank you. I know some people think of agnostics as 'wishy-washy' people who maybe want to hedge their bets, but I kinda think it takes more courage to say "I don't know".

For now, I see no reason to believe in things there is no evidence of. This includes god and satan, ghosts, angels and demons, a soul and and afterlife, ESP, the paranormal in general, UFOs and ETs (tho this last certainly seems at least possible).

Still, we don't know everything; to think we've reached the pinnacle of what can be known is silly. Just as any technology insufficiantly understood is indistinguishable from magic, so any natural phenomena insufficiently understood is indistinguishable from religion or the paranormal.

I think it's really helpful to have the self self-honesty to look at why I might 'want' something to be true (eg. I think it would be cool if people really could communicate with their minds alone, or, that it might be emotionally comforting to me hope that I might see a departed loved one again), without needing to place any of my non-existant 'faith' that these things are actually true.
 
I thought I tried shift+alt+? but I must not have: ¿

I have to do alt+e then a, e, i, o, or u to get á é í ó ú

That's with a Mac using Chrome. I haven't tried these in Windows.


Sorry, back to the topic.
 
Last edited:
Fascination said:
Thanks for sharing those videos. I enjoyed them and found them very interesting. Have you seen the Jason Beghe interview where he talks about his deconversion from Scientology? Here's a link:
Check out this video on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHb0BZyF5Ok&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Click to expand...



Fascination,

THANK YOU for that video link....that was a great 2 hours.

I really think that everyone should do themselves a favor and watch this video.

Just substitute the word scientology for ANY RELIGION you would care to think about.

Anyone who does not think that ANY AND ALL religions are BLOODY CULTS they are kidding themselves. ALL religions are CULTS just like scientology...the only differences are the number of followers and how long they have been around.

If you cannot spend the two hours then I suggest at the very least you watch the following minutes. Just remember that it is not JUST scientology....but ANY RELIGION that he could have been talking about...ANY...:
  • 0:17:50 to 0:25:00 where he talks about how sorry he was to have wasted so much time and effort on an EMPTY THING
  • 0:31:30 to 0:32:30
    and
    0:48:00 to 0:50:00     where he asserts that the people in the cult are nice people who just want to help
  • 0:41:38 to 0:43:00 he talks about how retarded it is
  • 0:44:00 to 0:48:00 he talks about how people justify things for themselves because they are invested in them.
  • 1:31:00 to 1:34:00 he talks about the SLAVES who dedicate themselves to the service of the leaders and the cult because they want to save the planet
  • 1:47:30 to 1:52:00 he talks about how he feels bad he helped in brain washing people and how people are SELF-ENSLAVING
  • 1:51:50 to End where he talks about how to DE-CONVERT this section is of PARAMOUNT IMPORTANCE to watch.

 
Last edited:
Leumas said:
Fascination,

THANK YOU for that video link....that was a great 2 hours.

I really think that everyone should do themselves a favor and watch this video.

Just substitute the word scientology for ANY RELIGION you would care to think about.

Anyone who does not think that ANY AND ALL religions are BLOODY CULTS they are kidding themselves. ALL religions are CULTS just like scientology...the only differences are the number of followers and how long they have been around.

If you cannot spend the two hours then I suggest at the very least you watch the following minutes. Just remember that it is not JUST scientology....but ANY RELIGION that he could have been talking about...ANY...:
  • 0:17:50 to 0:25:00 where he talks about how sorry he was to have wasted so much time and effort on an EMPTY THING
  • 0:31:30 to 0:32:30
    and
    0:48:00 to 0:50:00     where he asserts that the people in the cult are nice people who just want to help
  • 0:41:38 to 0:43:00 he talks about how retarded it is
  • 0:44:00 to 0:48:00 he talks about how people justify things for themselves because they are invested in them.
  • 1:31:00 to 1:34:00 he talks about the SLAVES who dedicate themselves to the service of the leaders and the cult because they want to save the planet
  • 1:47:30 to 1:52:00 he talks about how he feels bad he helped in brain washing people and how people are SELF-ENSLAVING
  • 1:51:50 to End where he talks about how to DE-CONVERT this section is of PARAMOUNT IMPORTANCE to watch.

Click to expand...

Your welcome! I'm glad you enjoyed it. I found it very enlightening also. It's sad how much money and time he wasted with that crap.
 
Fascination said:
Your welcome! I'm glad you enjoyed it. I found it very enlightening also. It's sad how much money and time he wasted with that crap.
Click to expand...


Yes..... I found minutes 0:17:50 to 0:25:00 quite moving in how he told us about the "moment" he was having....quite moving.


I think ALL people in any religion who are into all the religious crap of their religion to be in the same way as he was.... I just wish all people could "wake up" as he says.
 
Last edited:
Belz... said:
Apologies accepted, captain.... er... zooterkineeda !

You do understand that, in order to complete my reference, I have to kill you now. Of course, you'll go with the knowledge that your demise was done in honour of one of the greatest sci-fi movies ever made, so there.
Click to expand...

:D But didn't you have to kill me first?
 
Trent Wray said:
Thank you very much I appreciate it :D:D:D

Is your username Swahili ? Gave me flashbacks to my Kenya days lol

I'm fairly certain she found exactly what she was hoping to find ...
Click to expand...

She didn't find it, she brought it with her.
 
tsig said:
She didn't find it, she brought it with her.
Click to expand...
Hmm ... maybe both. She was looking for people she had already judged as rude, close minded, etc to reinforce her feelings that skeptics/atheists are rude, close minded, etc .... but I'm sure it was to justify whatever ideas she has about herself which she did bring here with her :) Beliefs had nothing to do with any of it other than her personal ploy.
 
Trent Wray said:
Hmm ... maybe both. She was looking for people she had already judged as rude, close minded, etc to reinforce her feelings that skeptics/atheists are rude, close minded, etc .... but I'm sure it was to justify whatever ideas she has about herself which she did bring here with her :) Beliefs had nothing to do with any of it other than her personal ploy.
Click to expand...

Yes, there was the feel of an agenda at work.

I have often thought about registering on a forum like Rapture Ready and playing a role but then I think of the times in my life when I've been deceptive and all the unforeseen complications that arose from that and I desist.:)
 
tsig said:
Yes, there was the feel of an agenda at work.

I have often thought about registering on a forum like Rapture Ready and playing a role but then I think of the times in my life when I've been deceptive and all the unforeseen complications that arose from that and I desist.:)
Click to expand...
Imagine that ... being aware you might have an ulterior motive, and therefore choosing the intellectually honest path of resisting trolling and manipulating others :rolleyes:. What a novel idea :D
 
punshhh said:
Let me simplify it for you.

If a god exists which we cannot detect scientifically, we as you say cannot say anything about it.

However if this God were to exist and created the known universe. It would create something which it knows about. Or at least its creation would be an expression to some degree of the nature of this creator.

Therefore we may be able to observe evidence of the nature of the creator in nature.

This evidence is provided by the emergence of creators in nature, expressing the principle of intelligent creators emerging naturally in nature.
Click to expand...

At this point, I have no idea what you're saying.

First of all, you've made a core contradiction without noticing it.

Your thought experiment here is to imagine "a god which we cannot detect scientifically" but then to imagine also that we "may be able to observe evidence of the nature of [this god] in nature".

Both conditions cannot be true at the same time, because if we can "observe evidence" of this god "in nature" then we are by definition detecting it scientifically. Or else if we're "detecting" it in an unscientific way, such as intuition or trance vision or boy-it-sure-does-seem-like, then we have no way at all of knowing if anything has actually been detected.

Second, you've de-defined both "god" and "exists".

You propose that this god "created the known universe" and after that point could not be detected.

The problem is that this isn't a god. I don't know what it is. But it's certainly not true that any and every thing which might be proposed to have caused our universe is, because of that, a god. And it's not true that all gods create universes. And the faithful don't believe in gods that have no contact with us or our universe at all.

And if our world looks identical with this god and without this god, then "this god exists" and "this god doesn't exist" mean the same thing, so it exists if and only if I accept that "exists" can mean "doesn't exist", in which case I must also accept that my aunt Eileen was Queen of England.

Finally, there's your claim that the "evidence" consists of "the emergence of creators in nature, expressing the principle of intelligent creators emerging naturally in nature".

Ok, so "intelligent creators" are part of the untold components of this universe. A couple of problems here. First, not all gods emerge from nature, in fact the modern ones overwhelmingly do not, and second, the god you've described is explicitly outside of nature, because it created nature, and so could not have emerged from it. And there's no reason to take any random item that arises in our universe as "evidence" for what does or doesn't, can or can't exist outside of it.

If you really want to imagine possible things outside of our universe, like p-branes, it takes a lot of doing, and those things have qualities based on more evidence than simply resembling something we see around us.

Your principle here seems to be: "If you can find an example of it in the universe, it may resemble whatever created the universe". Which doesn't get us very far because then god may resemble anything from a dust cloud to an exploding star to a candy machine or a Celine Dion concert.

punshhh said:
Now there is a question about the origin of the known universe, it would make sense that it was created. Rather like your computer keyboard was created by an intelligent creator.
Click to expand...

No, it wouldn't.

The flaw in the clockmaker argument is simply that the clock strikes me as man-made precisely because it does not resemble nature.

The reason I pick up the watch in the forest is that it seems out of place -- something made by intellect, surrounded by stuff made by nature. As diverse as everything around me in the forest is, the watch stands out as being categorically distinct.

To then take this set of circumstances and to deduce, "Ah-ha! Whatever made this forest must be a lot like whatever made this watch!" is sheer lunacy.
 
Daald said:
What I read into that sounded something akin to: We create stuff, so it would make sense if we were also created by something like us.
Click to expand...

Like the man says, if triangles had a god, it would have 3 sides.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom