Are 9/11 Truthers, Conspiracy Theorists?

So what happens, if someone has a conspiracy theory, and is later vindicated?

Like when I said, many years ago, before it started (and from a UK perspective), that the war in Afghanistan was about Gas and gas pipelines, and that Iraq was about oil and contracts? I couldn't prove it, I couldn't take it to court. In fact I personally still can't prove it or take it to court. Doesn't mean I'm wrong or insane.

Doesn't mean you are right or sane either.

When I said, before the invasion, that there were no WMDs in Iraq, and that it was a false pretext for war. That was a conspiracy theory at that time. What is it now? Just a conspiracy that happened, or is it just politics and history?

Many of what you deem conspiracies were, before proven, conspiracy theories. You just don't want to call them that, because they weren't unsubstantiated nonsense by people wearing tin foil hats.

While it is not true that Iraq had "no" WMD's (mind your false global generalizations), the argument that Iraq did not have a functional WMD program as described by Sec. Powell in his U.N. address was well supported by evidence not only prior to OIF but prior to 9/11/2001. It is the reason many of our allies were not so eager to go along. So no, that is a conclusion arrived at by reasoned argument supportable by evidence. It is not a CT.

If you could provide an actual example of something that really did start out as pure CT only to later be proven true that would be quite an accomplishment.
 
Take 9/11 out of the equation. Fire, bombing, CD, Earthquake, Tornado, Hurricane, subsidence...

Buildings fully or partially collapse in different ways, for different reasons, and because they are built differently. There are some patterns within those though.

The largest pattern for a building falling more or less straight down as a unit in short order is CD.

Fires gut buildings, some collapse depending on construction methods and circumstance.

Bombs tend to leave bloody big holes, followed by no, partial or total collapse.

Tornadoes tend to scatter lighter buildings, or tear bits off larger ones and throw them. Hurricanes often do the same, but a bit more directional.

Earthquakes can make buildings topple or pancake, depending on various factors.

This is not an exhaustive list, and by no means comprehensive, but it does suggest patterns.

CD is an engineered effort to totally and neatly destroy a building or a structure. Most other natural unintended collapses are not engineered... the forces are random or assymetrical. They all collapse down depending on how much of the structure has lost its integrity and where that loss occurred.
 
Take 9/11 out of the equation. Fire, bombing, CD, Earthquake, Tornado, Hurricane, subsidence...

Buildings fully or partially collapse in different ways, for different reasons, and because they are built differently. There are some patterns within those though.

The largest pattern for a building falling more or less straight down as a unit in short order is CD.

Fires gut buildings, some collapse depending on construction methods and circumstance.

Bombs tend to leave bloody big holes, followed by no, partial or total collapse.

Tornadoes tend to scatter lighter buildings, or tear bits off larger ones and throw them. Hurricanes often do the same, but a bit more directional.

Earthquakes can make buildings topple or pancake, depending on various factors.

This is not an exhaustive list, and by no means comprehensive, but it does suggest patterns.

Since none of the above has anything to do with what I am talking about, put 9/11 back into it.

7 WTC collapses because Col. 79 is left unbraced over multiple floors, causing it to buckle. Does the building fall differently because fire caused that specific failure than if explosives or bad welds or rust did it?

Or in other words, does the building know what caused it to start falling so that it will fall differently for different methods of collapse initiation even if that initiation is in the same spot?
 
CD is an engineered effort to totally and neatly destroy a building or a structure. Most other natural unintended collapses are not engineered... the forces are random or assymetrical. They all collapse down depending on how much of the structure has lost its integrity and where that loss occurred.

That makes you a truther my friend.
 
I would guess those posters who actually want to educate and correct misunderstandings.
Who cares? After the discovery the BS behind the 911 BS claims are bias?
... The US needs another civil war, ...
Hate of the USA, and CT after CT fuel the BS... Willful ignorance is hard to fix with tons of honey... in this case, more honey, more BS, and the Gish Gallop leaps to the next BS...

Love it - 'our world'. Speak for yourself please. There are people here whose main aim is indeed to help the misinformed to a better understanding.
... "our world" is a figure of speech...

That makes you a truther my friend.
Nope, the collapse of the WTC towers, and WTC 7 were not symmetrical, and amazing, symmetry is a math kind of thing; which is prohibited in 911 truth. How is your CD evidence going? Still only have "looks like"? Not much evidence, in fact, opinions are not evidence. Better luck with the Afghan oil and gas pipe line BS. Or was it flouride?
 
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I would guess those posters who actually want to educate and correct misunderstandings.

That's cute. Do you think False Flag and AClark have been educated and had their misunderstandings corrected. Please quote the posts where they acknowledge this.


Love it - 'our world'. Speak for yourself please. There are people here whose main aim is indeed to help the misinformed to a better understanding.

That might be their aim and I for one have a great appreciation for their expertise and knowledge. I've learned much from them.

Tell me, do you consider AClark someone who is "misinformed" and now through being educated by "posters here" has a "better understanding"?
 
That's cute. Do you think False Flag and AClark have been educated and had their misunderstandings corrected.
Replace 'have been' with 'are being' and I would answer, 'yes'. Unfortunately they are also both failing spectacularly with the first and most crucial step towards the completion of the task, namely identifying which serious posters to engage with and which fight-picking thugs to ignore.

That might be their aim and I for one have a great appreciation for their expertise and knowledge. I've learned much from them.
+1

Tell me, do you consider AClark someone who is "misinformed"
Yes. I even said so in my first post to him.

...and now through being educated by "posters here" has a "better understanding"?
See above - change 'has' to 'is getting' and I would answer, 'yes'. But it is up to AClark and FalseFlag to change their behaviour, stop joining in with the bar-room noise and engage properly with the right posters.
 
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... See above - change 'has' to 'is getting' and I would answer, 'yes'. But it is up to AClark and FalseFlag to change their behaviour, stop joining in with the bar-room noise and engage properly with the right posters.
Bar-room noise, aka BS, all FF and Aclark have.
The right posters? lol
... The US needs another civil war, ...
Are the right posters non-American posters? lol
... entire steel sections laterally into nearby buildings at great speed.
Can you get him to define "great speed". He did the 911 truth shuffle, and moved to the next Gish Gallop... failing to respond to the Right Posters, or any posters.
What about left poster. Or anti-war posters...

They are full blown 911 truth, and full blown CTers. Fringe of the fringe few, who spread BS, even when the right posters post.
 
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Replace 'have been' with 'are being' and I would answer, 'yes'. Unfortunately they are also both failing spectacularly with the first and most crucial step towards the completion of the task, namely identifying which serious posters to engage with and which fight-picking thugs to ignore.

That's a strange answer considering they are engaging with what I would consider some of the most knowledgeable people in this sub-forum (Just to be clear I'm not including myself in this group).



Glad we agree


Yes. I even said so in my first post to him.

Again, glad we agree.

See above - change 'has' to 'is getting' and I would answer, 'yes'. But it is up to AClark and FalseFlag to change their behaviour, stop joining in with the bar-room noise and engage properly with the right posters.

Another strange answer, AClark has in no way demonstrated he "is getting" an education, in fact his responses in this forum indicate something entirely different and last time I checked he was engaging with the "right posters".

If he doesn't do that "properly", that's entirely on him.
 
That's a strange answer considering they are engaging with what I would consider some of the most knowledgeable people in this sub-forum (Just to be clear I'm not including myself in this group).
But being knowledgeable doesn't mean you're necessarily good at or willing to put the time into educating misinformed laypeople. Also I agree that AClark and FalseFlag are not approaching the discussion in the correct way, and are both encouraging poor quality argument by being antagonistic.

If he doesn't do that "properly", that's entirely on him.
100% agree. But I was questioning your 'who cares' comment by pointing out that there are people whose main aim is to correct misunderstandings - they care. Whether or not they're obtaining the desired result in the cases of particular posters is a separate issue.
 
But being knowledgeable doesn't mean you're necessarily good at or willing to put the time into educating misinformed laypeople. Also I agree that AClark and FalseFlag are not approaching the discussion in the correct way, and are both encouraging poor quality argument by being antagonistic.


100% agree. But I was questioning your 'who cares' comment by pointing out that there are people whose main aim is to correct misunderstandings - they care. Whether or not they're obtaining the desired result in the cases of particular posters is a separate issue.

Perfectly understandable and I'd like you to know I appreciate where you're coming from and know you're just trying to be helpful, unfortunately those coming here claiming to learn like you did are few and far between.
 
I am not an expert, but you already knew that, and I have said it numerous times.

Then get some experts together, that’s what usualy happens.
Form a panel of people with qualifications and experience in relevant fields.
Isn't there a list of pilots and engineers for 9/11 Truth somewhere? I am sure some of them would be willing to help.
 
So what happens, if someone has a conspiracy theory, and is later vindicated?

Like when I said, many years ago, before it started (and from a UK perspective), that the war in Afghanistan was about Gas and gas pipelines, and that Iraq was about oil and contracts? I couldn't prove it, I couldn't take it to court. In fact I personally still can't prove it or take it to court. Doesn't mean I'm wrong or insane.

When I said, before the invasion, that there were no WMDs in Iraq, and that it was a false pretext for war. That was a conspiracy theory at that time. What is it now? Just a conspiracy that happened, or is it just politics and history?

1. Gas and oil in Afghanistan and Iraq were both discussed in the press at the time, especially the left-leaning press. But they were offered as explanations for the true motivations of the US (and sometimes British - it was never clear how the UK was going to be involved with these) government for going to war.

Arguing about motivation and "the causes" is indeed "just politics and history". Many commentators would point quite instinctively to a variety of factors motivating the wars in question, and would note that it's quite possible for such things to start because of one thing then add in other motives as they are planned.

Hitler attacked the USSR in 1941 after stating in the summer of 1940 that this would knock out England's last hope on the continent (so a strategic logic). By early 1941 the planning was emphasising plunder of resources (so an economic logic). By spring 1941 the planning had decided not to install puppet governments but to annex territory into a colonial empire while also killing communists wherever they were found (so an ideological logic).

Similarly, with Iraq, there were potential strategic benefits (to US allies like Saudi Arabia and Israel), economic benefits (oil), personal motives (Saddam tried to assassinate Daddy, unfinished business from Bush Sr's administration), and ideological motives (bringing democracy, and later on after the invasion humanitarian claims like overthrowing a murderous tyrant).

Reducing this complexity to one factor alone would not be good analysis, but would not require conspiracy theories to bridge the analytical gaps and shortfalls. Monocausalism can however tip over very easily into conspiracism.

2. "No WMDs" was discussed in some parts of the press at the time, notably in the Guardian. There was quite a widespread debate globally on WMDs, not least because the UN was skeptical as were many European states. Intelligence services worldwide were partially fooled. Comparing Britain and the US, the actions of the Blair government (the 'dodgy dossier') were arguably more cynical than the actions of the Bush administration, which appeared to genuinely believe the bad intelligence. Yet the 'stovepiping' of faulty intel was discussed at the time, ditto the politicisation of intelligence. There was also manipulation/corruption of parts of the media, eg the NYT being used to attack critics and skeptics of the WMD claims. (That resulted in convictions later on, as well as the ending of journalistic careers.)

So no, that one is also not a conspiracy theory.

Many of what you deem conspiracies were, before proven, conspiracy theories. You just don't want to call them that, because they weren't unsubstantiated nonsense by people wearing tin foil hats.

Except the two examples you gave weren't conspiracies. The promotion of WMDs as a casus belli was done entirely in the open. There were massive leaks at the time and a torrent by 2003-2004. There was extensive media discussion of the finer details and aspects. When it came to the crunch, the UN's sanction was incomplete, showing that the US had failed to entirely persuade the international community as well as many key European allies that they had an airtight case. Thus the extensive discussion after 2003 of Iraq as an 'illegal war'.

Look, I was a daily Guardian reader and weekly New Statesman reader in 2002-2003, back before broadband was widely available, and I was completely against the war; I went on the march in London. My media did not let me down - but I knew already at the time that other parts of the British press were letting their readers down, and that the US press was not being nearly skeptical enough or was allowing itself to be used. My elected representatives let me down. US politicians let their constituents down - not least because they didn't want to be smeared as many Democrats had been for opposing Gulf 1, so they went for the hawkish option for political reasons. As was discussed openly at the time!

How old were you in 2001-2003 and what were you reading by way of media at the time?
 
The JFK-conspiracy is very common for the people I know that believe the 9/11-CT.
And actually, I would say that the 9/11 CT includes so many parts it's hard to label as a single conspiracy.
 

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