Archeology has never disproved a Biblical point

[Ladewig]

And archeology has discovered many old artifacts and places that are in the OT.

And archeology has proven a thousand times over that the world is not less than 10,000 years old and that Noah's Flood did not occur. It also has disproved that the Jews were slaves in Egypt. It is mind-boggling that you think archeology supports your position. Once again, we see why you are the very worst person to proselytize on this website. Either take your preaching elsewhere or stay here and open your mind. Anything else is merely pride on your part.

 

[TimCallahan]

What do you mean assuming he actually existed? Jesus is a historical fact!

And archeology has discovered many old artifacts and places that are in the OT. So I am not following your thinking at all Tim. Did you look at those articles I have linked to http://www.4truth.net/site/pp.aspx?c=hiKXLbPNLrF&b=2903877&printmode=1

While I'm inclined to agree with you that Jesus was a real person, the evidence of his existence is rather slim. Even the allusion to him in regard to the execution by stoning of James, referred to as "the brother of Jesus who was called the Christ" by Josephus has been called into question. Assuming the words about Jesus being "called" or "spoken of" (Gr. "lego" to speak) as the Christ were in the original autograph of the "Antiquites of the Jews," that gives us the only mention of Jesus in the first century outside the Christian Scriptures.

All other evidence of Jesus is indirect and by inference. As to his acts as recorded in the gospels, they are often copies of miracles worked by personages of the Old Testament, often copied word-for-word from the Septuagint. Other signs and wonders, such as turning water into wine at the wedding feast in Cana, are taken from pagan mythology. The miraculous reliease of Paul and Silas from prison in Acts 16 was copied nearly word-for-word from "The Bacchae" by Euripides.

As to archaeology supporting the Old Testament, yes, we have the Tell Dan inscription, telling us there was a House of David. We have the remains of Ahab's palace. We have Assyrian and Chaldean inscriptions mentioning various kings of Israel and Judah. We also have the Moabite Stone, set up by Mesha, king of Moab. All of these are Iron Age inscriptions. We also have, from the late Bronze Age, a reference to a people called Israel residing in Canaan - along with many others - on the Victory Stele of Pharaoh Merneptah, son of Rameses II (the Great).

Where archaeology seriously contradicts the biblical record, as I've noted in some detail in this thread, is in regard to the Exodus and Conquest narratives.

Where archaeology is equivocal or (so far) mute is in regard to the existence of a united kingdom of Israel and Judah, the reign and existence of Solomon, and the Jerusalem temple he built,

 

[Elizabeth I]

[kind of OT, but only a little] Does anyone have a suggestion for some reading material on the possibility that the Israelites were actually just the Canaanites left after their society imploded? Thanks! [/OT]

 

[shadron]

The NOVA program The Bible's Buried Secrets (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/bible/program.html) does that and cites the archaeological evidence. You can then go to wiki to locate more on specific items and tap into their bibliographies for the source material.

Usual disclaimer: NOVA is not the true voice of archaeology, if such a thing exists. It's a starting point only. For one thing, there is always more to it than they have the time to present.

 

[TimCallahan]

[kind of OT, but only a little] Does anyone have a suggestion for some reading material on the possibility that the Israelites were actually just the Canaanites left after their society imploded? Thanks! [/OT]

Dr. William Dever's 2003 book "Who Were the Early Israelites and Where Did they Come From?"covers this topic in detail. Dever is one of the formost biblical archaeologists in the country. What is really odd about this book - considering that in it Dever details the absolute failure of archeology to support the conquest narrative of the Book of Joshua - is that it was published by Wm. Eerdmans Publishing Company of Grand Rapids, one of the country's leading evangelical publishers.

 

[Belz...]

Just don't forget that an absence of evidence is not evidence to say it never happened.

No, but when you should expect some evidence to exist and never find any you can safely assume that there isn't.

 

[Belz...]

What do you mean assuming he actually existed? Jesus is a historical fact!

No, he isn't. I consider there's more than 50% chance that there was actually a person who inspired the gospels, but it isn't sure at all.

That was already discussed in a recent thread, Kathy. There is no corroborating evidence.

 

[autumn1971]

Just to make a quick suggestion,
It's over a decade old, but I just read The Origin of Satan by Elaine Pagels, and it does a wonderful job of looking at the hundred years or so after Jesus' life (yes, she assumes the existance of a specific, historical Jesus, but the canonical writers of the time seem to have done so as well), and examines it in terms of how Satan is defined and identified with various groups by different authors. It's interesting to see how and why a known sadist like Pilate would be given such a free ride by Gospel authors.

More on topic: How can archeology disprove a Biblical assertion?
Like any other science, it shows that examination and contemplation can lead to an increase in knowledge.
This is possible without any supernatural interference.
It comes from our human brains alone.
Revelation is not needed, in fact, it is silly and counterproductive.

 

[drkitten]

More on topic: How can archeology disprove a Biblical assertion?

By showing something else to be true that is incompatible with the Biblical narrative. In a sense, archeology has already done that by disproving the global flood, but relatively few sophisticated Christians believe in the literal Flood. Similarly, archeology/paleontology has disproven the Garden of Eden story, but relatively few Christians believe that to be anything other than a creation myth.

But almost all christians believe, for example, that "Jesus suffered under Pontius Pilate." As I pointed out in another thread, finding a recognizable copy of the Mark narrative that could be reliably dated to 100BC would pretty much trash the entire "historical" aspect of Jesus.

 

[Foster Zygote]

Kathy......Do you ever wonder at all? Do you ever wonder if you can use, or ever have used critical thinking? Do you ever wonder if the links you post have ever been rendered questionable?

A simple non-Godbot answer would suffice here.

Kathy is fully indoctrinated. She has been thoroughly trained not to think critically. She has been taught that doubt itself is a sin. She has been taught that doubt is caused by demons whispering to her as they try to turn her from the path of righteousness. I understand where she's coming from because as a child I was taught the same things. Fortunately, my indoctrination was not so complete that I could not dismantle it.

 

[shadron]

Just to make a quick suggestion,
It's over a decade old, but I just read The Origin of Satan by Elaine Pagels, and it does a wonderful job of looking at the hundred years or so after Jesus' life (yes, she assumes the existance of a specific, historical Jesus, but the canonical writers of the time seem to have done so as well), and examines it in terms of how Satan is defined and identified with various groups by different authors. It's interesting to see how and why a known sadist like Pilate would be given such a free ride by Gospel authors.

Wow, and here I had assumed we only knew that he was even a real person for just the last 50 years or so, after the Pilate stone was discovered. In fact, his only public mention in history, beyond the Pilate Stone in Caesarea, is the four gospels, and in them he is portrayed at worst as disinterested in Christ and his fate; in fact, his wife was proclaimed a saint by the church based on one of the gospel's testimony.

Please, what evidence for Pilate's sadism do you (or Ms Pagels) have, really? Philo and Josehus, both, were Jews who could hardly be expected to view Roman rule dispassionately, and they are the only contemporary sources.


Hmmmm. Upon further research I find that perhaps I was being a bit heavy on Dr. Elaine Pagels^WP, if not on you. The citation concerning her book (full title: The Origin of Satan: How Christians Demonized Jews, Pagans, and Heretics) doesn't even mention Pilate; primarily it is an explanation about how the church managed to villify Jews and heretics, just as the whole title suggests. Also, I assume that includes the way they sidelined gnostics, since that appears to be her major field; gnosticism is at the root of many of the early heresies. Personally, while I am somewhat thankful that gnosticism's reliance on special messages and the elect weren't part of the early church, perhaps that would have weakened it later and not left us with the confusing legacy we now have. The means by which it was done, though, was wretched and cruel, and I must insist, typical.

I was also wrong in stating "the only public mention in history". He is mentioned in both Philo and Josephus, contemporary Jewish writers, and that is all.

Nevertheless, villifying Pilate for no good reason is just not useful, and without proof I don't think its useful to even bring up here.

 

[Meadmaker]

The miraculous reliease of Paul and Silas from prison in Acts 16 was copied nearly word-for-word from "The Bacchae" by Euripides.

I looked this up. I don't think the wording is very similar at all.

 

[TimCallahan]

Looking back at my source for the similarity between "The Bachae" and Acts, "Who Wrote the Gospels?" by Randel Helms, I found this on pp. 90, 91. When Peter is imprisoned in Jerusalem, he is miraculously relased (Acts 12:10a):

When they had passed the first and second guard, they came to the iron gate leading toward the city. It opened to them of its own accord.

When Paul and Silas are imprisoned in Philippi something similar happens (Acts 16:26):

And suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations fof the prisn were shaken; and the doors were opened and every one's fetters were unfastened.

Lines 447-8 of "The Bacchae" say:

The chains on their legs snapped part by themselves. Untouched by any human hand, the doors swung wide, opening of their own accord.

When Paul recounts his conversion on the road to Damascus in Acts 26:15, Jesus says to him, "It is hard for you, this kicking against the goads." In Greek th phrase "against the goads" is "pros kentra laktizien." In "The Bacchae, Dionysos tells Pentheus that that the king has ignored his (Dionysos') warning and kicks against the goads. In Greek the phrase is "pros kentra laktizoimi."

I may have overstated my case with respect to Acts being patterned word for word on "The Bacchae," but you can see the similarities and the repitition of certain key phrases nearly word-for-word.

 

[slingblade]

Kathy is fully indoctrinated. She has been thoroughly trained not to think critically. She has been taught that doubt itself is a sin. She has been taught that doubt is caused by demons whispering to her as they try to turn her from the path of righteousness. I understand where she's coming from because as a child I was taught the same things. Fortunately, my indoctrination was not so complete that I could not dismantle it.

It can be difficult, but it's do-able.

I was certain I was committing a heinous sin by taking a world religions class in high school. I (and many of my peers) was taught it was evil, bad, wrong, and doubting to study or learn about false religions, which were all the other ones, of course, and even a few of our own...

And they were right about one thing. It did start me asking important questions more earnestly, like "how does anyone know what the 'true' religion really is? Is there such a thing? Are we all wrong? How can anyone ever know?" And you gotta ask those, early on, to get anywhere...

 

[MG1962]

It can be difficult, but it's do-able.

I was certain I was committing a heinous sin by taking a world religions class in high school. I (and many of my peers) was taught it was evil, bad, wrong, and doubting to study or learn about false religions, which were all the other ones, of course, and even a few of our own...

And they were right about one thing. It did start me asking important questions more earnestly, like "how does anyone know what the 'true' religion really is? Is there such a thing? Are we all wrong? How can anyone ever know?" And you gotta ask those, early on, to get anywhere...

Its funny how experiences can differ. My daughters have all been educated in a Catholic school system. In high school they have to do a comparitive religious studies. Learn about other faiths, what makes them tick.

Only yesterday the current Pope visited a Mosque in Jordon. Whether we agree or not with the philosophy of a particular faith. There is no reason we can not respect it practioners

 

[politas]

I was also wrong in stating "the only public mention in history". He is mentioned in both Philo and Josephus, contemporary Jewish writers, and that is all.

Hang on, Philo never mentioned Jesus. In fact, Philo's lack of mention of Jesus is one of the biggest red flags casting doubt on Jesus' historical existence.

Where are you getting your information?

There is also a hefty degree of suspicion that the references to Jesus in Josephus are later forgeries inserted into the work. They really don't fit with the rest of the text.

 

[shadron]

Hang on, Philo never mentioned Jesus. In fact, Philo's lack of mention of Jesus is one of the biggest red flags casting doubt on Jesus' historical existence.

Where are you getting your information?

There is also a hefty degree of suspicion that the references to Jesus in Josephus are later forgeries inserted into the work. They really don't fit with the rest of the text.

Not Jesus, Pilate. See the referenced wiki page.

 

[Nogbad]

Its funny how experiences can differ. My daughters have all been educated in a Catholic school system. In high school they have to do a comparitive religious studies. Learn about other faiths, what makes them tick.

Only yesterday the current Pope visited a Mosque in Jordon. Whether we agree or not with the philosophy of a particular faith. There is no reason we can not respect it practioners

Although some are sent here to test our resolve on the matter it would seem

 

[MG1962]

Although some are sent here to test our resolve on the matter it would seem

Very true lol - However if it was easy, I guess everyone would be doing it

 

[politas]

Not Jesus, Pilate. See the referenced wiki page.

Ah, my bad. That'll teach me to read more carefully.