Apple vs Samsung let the fun begin.

Fast Eddie B said:
I think he means apart from the verdict(s).

Then again, if a juror said, "I voted for Apple because I was promised money to do so", I think the verdict might well be thrown out and a mistrial declared.

So, what a juror says may matter, depending on its import.
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OK. So, what do you think (or know), what importance does it have if a juror and the foreman basically admit to have violated the jury instructions? Because from how i understand what these two people said, that's pretty much what they admitted to have done.

Greetings,

Chris
 
Darat said:
In regards to juries the USA is quite different to the UK, in the UK talking about how they reached their decision is a big no-no. Can a trial be appealed based on what the jurists say afterwards (not meaning if something illegal came to light - that's a different kettle of fish)? Strictly speaking in the UK a jury could just toss a coin to make their decision and that would still be binding.
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And that bolded part is pretty much what i'm thinking about. To me it reads that the jury not only ignored the instructions, but violated them. The foreman admitted to making it a punishment, which they aren't allowed to do. One juror admitted that the foreman told them about his experience with patents (as he has one) and that they followed that line, instead of the instructions, evidence and asking the judge about those matters (which, from i read from the instructions, is what they ought to have done instead). It is admitted that they basically ignored the issue of prior art because it bogged them down.

To me that makes a rather fishy impression, and it makes me wonder if that is legal. Add to that the contradictions they had in their first verdict, which _really_ makes it look like they just randomly threw numbers together instead of caring about their duty.

Greetings,

Chris
 
Darat said:
In regards to juries the USA is quite different to the UK, in the UK talking about how they reached their decision is a big no-no. Can a trial be appealed based on what the jurists say afterwards (not meaning if something illegal came to light - that's a different kettle of fish)? Strictly speaking in the UK a jury could just toss a coin to make their decision and that would still be binding.
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Thanks! Was napping so didn't answer promptly.
 
Christian Klippel said:
And that bolded part is pretty much what i'm thinking about. To me it reads that the jury not only ignored the instructions, but violated them.

...
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The only illegality that will matter isn if one of them were externally influenced.

Period.

In a criminal matter, you can even decide to pretend the law doesn't exist and rule to acquit, and your verdict as a jury is still valid.
 
Christian Klippel said:
Next, the jury foreman said that the jurors reached a decision, and they did not need the jury instructions to do so. Last but not least they made two extreme mistakes in their findings, where they contradicted themselves. First they found that the Galaxy Tab 10.1 did not infringe, but then awarded about 200k in damages to Apple for that. That also happened for the Intercept, for which they initially awarded 2 million in damages.
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Wow, that's some devastating stuff. Apple couldn't have had a more favorable jury.
 
BenBurch said:
The jury's decision cannot be questioned. As I understand it, only matters of law or matters of redress may be.
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No, jury verdicts can be questioned on appeal. The standard is just higher. Anything debatable is left to the jury, and the only things that can be overturned are where no "reasonable jury" could have ruled that way.
 
Darat said:
In regards to juries the USA is quite different to the UK, in the UK talking about how they reached their decision is a big no-no. Can a trial be appealed based on what the jurists say afterwards (not meaning if something illegal came to light - that's a different kettle of fish)? Strictly speaking in the UK a jury could just toss a coin to make their decision and that would still be binding.
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I remember that one jury in the UK used a ouija board to come to their decision. I think the guy who was convicted for murder, as a result, won a re-trial.

In this case, I spoke to Steve Jobs by ouija board and he admitted Samsung didn't copy anything but Apple copied Samsung so I will buy Samsung from now on.
 
Christian Klippel said:
Like a foreman bringing in his own patent experiences as a patent holder, influencing the jury with that instead of following the instructions and/or asking the judge?

Greetings,

Chris
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As I understand it, that wouldn't be sufficient. Everybody brings things into the jury room, in fact, you hope they do. A jury of dunces would not yield just results.
 
BenBurch said:
As I understand it, that wouldn't be sufficient. Everybody brings things into the jury room, in fact, you hope they do. A jury of dunces would not yield just results.
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Somehow i have a hard time believing that in this case. If it really goes that way in this case, it would be really a shame.

As i read it, the jury was initially wondering about what prior art existed, and thus were considering it. Then the foreman comes in and tells them about _his_ experience, not about the facts of the case at hand. After that they turned around and, i quote:

"In fact we skipped that one," Ilagan continued, "so we could go on faster. It was bogging us down." ...
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So they ignored all that, simply based on what the foreman told them. They did not consult with the jury instructions, they did not ask the judge. I can imagine how that went on, judging from discussions about patents in online forums with people who are involved in that patent mess.

Combined with the foreman's statement that they wanted to "make sure it was sufficiently high to be painful", it looks like someone got an axe to grind, led the jury to ignore things and use his ideas instead and succeeded with that.

Oh, and it seems they borked up even more stuff, from what i read in this short article, and from other posters over at Groklaw report. Seems they did award damages based on design patent stuff for devices that are quite far away from that design stuff, while awarding nothing for devices that come really close to those patents.

The more i read about it the more it looks like a rushed decision, basically forced to go the way it did by the patent-holding foreman. I really can't believe that this will get a pass. I guess we will see what happens about that in the next days, and what will come up in the appeals.

Oh, and happy B'day Ben.

Greetings,

Chris
 
WildCat said:
Judge Koh has ordered the jury back on Monday, and told them to resolve these discrepancies in red ink on the verdict.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/busin...y-reconsidering-case-20120824,0,3967633.story
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From what i know they already did that. That is, gave out new figures for the damages.

Greetings,

Chris

ETA: In the article on Groklaw, that i linked to earlier:

In two instances, results were crazily contradictory, and the judge had to have the jury go back and fix the goofs. As a result the damages award was reduced to $1,049,343,540, down from $1,051,855,000. For just one example, the jury had said one device didn't infringe, but then they awarded Apple $2 million for inducement. In another they awarded a couple of hundred thousand for a device they'd ruled didn't infringe at all.
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ETA2: Oh, and even there they messed it up. The first amended total was 1,049,343,293. Then they corrected that to 1,049,343,540. However, if you add up the numbers from their breakdown, it comes out as 1,049,423,540.

That's what you get for rushing things out without thinking just to punish someone, i guess.
 
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