Apple vs Samsung let the fun begin.

Apparently people who actually matter think that the Patent system has been shown to be broken with all this Smartphone nonsense:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-19904713



They also suggest a ban on sales bans.
Did you read the story linked in my last post? Lots of fun stuff there, like how Apple had to submit the patent for Siri 8 times, because the first 7 times it was rejected as "too obvious". They changed some words around which didn't change the form and function and scope of the patent one bit and on the 8th try managed to find a patent examiner to slip it past.

Ho ho ho! Innovation!
 
Did you read the story linked in my last post? Lots of fun stuff there, like how Apple had to submit the patent for Siri 8 times, because the first 7 times it was rejected as "too obvious". They changed some words around which didn't change the form and function and scope of the patent one bit and on the 8th try managed to find a patent examiner to slip it past.

Sorry, but that article's description is wrong, and your description is even worse.

The patent isn't "submitted" eight times. The process that a patent goes through is to respond to each rejection by amending the claims or arguing with the examiner until the application is allowed. It's meant to be both an adversarial and a collaborative process, and repeated rejections doesn't say anything about the patentability of the idea.

Most inaccurate in your description is the fact that, barring staffing changes in the Patent Office, the same examiner reviews the case each time. So the idea that you submit the patent multiple times until you "find a patent examiner to slip it past" is pure fantasy. You work with the examiner until you find claim language that the examiner agrees overcomes the art.

Again, a very basic knowledge of the actual patent prosecution process on your part or the part of the author of that article could have saved an awful lot of inaccurate description.

If you're interested in the actual dialog between Apple's attorneys and the Patent Office, it's available to the public here. Just put in the number of the patent that interests you, and you can see every office action the examiner issued and every response from Apple -- not to mention complete lists of the searches the examiner did and the references cited by the examiner to reject previous versions of the claims as obvious.

As easy as it is to get this info first-hand, it's appalling how people feel comfortable passing along third-hand descriptions as "fact".
 
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Most inaccurate in your description is the fact that, barring staffing changes in the Patent Office, the same examiner reviews the case each time. So the idea that you submit the patent multiple times until you "find a patent examiner to slip it past" is pure fantasy. You work with the examiner until you find claim language that the examiner agrees overcomes the art.
Oh yeah, the article also talked about how they can eventually wear down a patent examiner, who is under a heavy workload and eventually just caves because hey, it's just another meaningless patent that will never amount to anything anyway.

The ideas contained in the application would blossom at Apple, Google, Microsoft, Nuance, Vlingo and dozens of other companies. All the while, the application traveled quietly through the patent office, where officials rejected it twice in 2007, three times in 2008, once in 2009, twice in 2010 and once in 2011.

The patent office has a reputation for being overworked, understaffed and plagued by employee turnover, and employees concede that some of their work is subjective.

“When I get an application, I basically have two days to research and write a 10- to 20-page term paper on why I think it should be approved or rejected,” said Robert Budens, a 22-year patent examiner and president of the examiners’ labor union. “I’m not going to pretend like we get it right every time.”

To receive a patent, an invention must be novel (substantially different from what exists), not obvious (one can’t patent a new toaster simply by expanding it to handle five slices of bread), and useful (so
meone can’t patent an invisibility machine if invisibility is impossible).

“If you give the same application to 10 different examiners, you’ll get 10 different results,” said Raymond Persino, a patent lawyer who worked as an examiner from 1998 to 2005.

After patent 8,086,604 was first rejected in 2007, Apple’s lawyers made small adjustments to the application, changing the word “documents” to “items of information” and inserting the phrase “heuristic modules” to refer to bits of software code. A few years later, the inclusion of the word “predetermined” further narrowed Apple’s approach.

These changes had little substantial impact, said experts who reviewed the application for The Times. But the patent office slowly began to come around to Apple’s point of view.

Yep, everything is just fine.

And from a St. Louis Fed working paper:
The case against patents can be summarized briefly: there is no empirical evidence that they serve to increase innovation and productivity, unless the latter is identified with the number of patents awarded – which, as evidence shows, has no correlation with measured productivity. This is at the root of the “patent puzzle”: in spite of the enormeous increase in the number of patents and in the strength of their legal protection we have neither seen a dramatic acceleration in the rate of technological progress nor a major increase in the levels of R&D expenditure – in addition to the discussion in this paper, see Lerner [2009] and literature therein. As we shall see, there is strong evidence, instead, that patents have many negative consequences. Both of these observations, the evidence in support of which has grown steadily over time, are consistent with theories of innovation that emphasize competition and first-mover advantage as the main drivers of innovation and directly contradict “Schumpeterian” theories postulating that government granted monopolies are crucial in order to provide incentives for innovation. The differing predictive and explanatory powers of the two alternative classes of models persist when attention is shifted to the historical evidence on the life-cycle of industries. The initial eruption of small and large innovations leading to the creation of a new industry – from chemicals to cars, from radio and TV to personal computers and investment banking – is seldom, if ever, born out of patent protection and is, instead, the fruits of highly competitive-cooperative environments. It is only after the initial stages of explosive innovation and rampant growth end that mature industries turn toward the legal protection of patents, usually because their internal grow potential diminishes and the industry structure become concentrated.

A closer look at the historical and international evidence suggests that while weak patent systems may mildly increase innovation with limited side-effects, strong patent systems retard innovation with many negative side-effects. Both theoretically and empirically, the political economy of government operated patent systems indicates that weak legislation will generally evolve into a strong protection and that the political demand for stronger patent protection comes from old and stagnant industries and firms, not from new and innovative ones. Hence the best solution is to abolish patents entirely through strong constitutional measures and to find other legislative instruments, less open to lobbying and rent-seeking, to foster innovation whenever there is clear evidence that laissez-faire under-supplies it.
 
Oh yeah, the article also talked about how they can eventually wear down a patent examiner, who is under a heavy workload and eventually just caves because hey, it's just another meaningless patent that will never amount to anything anyway.

So basically what you're saying is that, whether a particular fact you put forward is true or false, you have a reason why you believe the patent system is broken. I can basically show that every description of a patent you give and every description of the process you give is inaccurate, and that also is evidence of what you believe to be true.

It doesn't appear that your beliefs about patents are based on evidence.
 
So basically what you're saying is that, whether a particular fact you put forward is true or false, you have a reason why you believe the patent system is broken. I can basically show that every description of a patent you give and every description of the process you give is inaccurate, and that also is evidence of what you believe to be true.

It doesn't appear that your beliefs about patents are based on evidence.
Maybe you could, but you haven't yet. Maybe you can explain the difference between "documents" and "items of information"?
 
So basically what you're saying is that, whether a particular fact you put forward is true or false, you have a reason why you believe the patent system is broken. I can basically show that every description of a patent you give and every description of the process you give is inaccurate, and that also is evidence of what you believe to be true.

It doesn't appear that your beliefs about patents are based on evidence.

I note how you chose to nit pick a mistake WildCat made instead of address today's news....

Apparently people who actually matter think that the Patent system has been shown to be broken with all this Smartphone nonsense:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-19904713



They also suggest a ban on sales bans.

I also love how you repeatedly bring up the fact that people generalize a patent when the self titled experts in this thread were the ones that were clearly proven to not understand a key aspect of the patent system.

Like an average person generalizing is worse than a so called expert completely failing at understanding something key to patents like "obviousness".
 
I note how you chose to nit pick a mistake WildCat made instead of address today's news....
From the very beginning of this thread, my main interest here has been to correct inaccuracies regarding the description of patents and the patent process.
I'm not as concerned with the specifics of a particular patent case (unless someone is mis-describing them or the law is being mis-applied) and I'm not particularly concerned with policy folks arguing about whether patents are beneficial (unless, again, those arguments are based on factual inaccuracies or just plain ignorance).
Further, I don't really have an issue with positions that the patent term is too long or that certain subject matter should be out-of-bounds or that patents are stifling innovation, because I think there's some validity in all of those arguments. I have an issue with arguments about patents which involve ignorance about patents and the patent system.
And, in case I haven't made myself clear, I have no particular desire for Apple to win or lose its patent suits. So you can continue to lambast me personally because it's convenient for you, trying to find some hidden motivation in my posts, but the truth is that all I'm trying to do here is get people to actually look at the facts of the situation rather than making up their own.

I also love how you repeatedly bring up the fact that people generalize a patent when the self titled experts in this thread were the ones that were clearly proven to not understand a key aspect of the patent system.
What "key aspect of the patent system" were the "self titled experts" "clearly proven not to understand"?

Like an average person generalizing is worse than a so called expert completely failing at understanding something key to patents like "obviousness".
You'll have to point me to those posts. If any layman here has given even a semi-coherent explanation of post-KSR obviousness, I certainly didn't see it.
 
I'm curious to know how slide-to-unlock is non-obvious, given this:

http://www.riegel-shop24.de/catalog/index.php/cPath/33

And these things already exist for centuries in various sizes using various materials. Tell me, how can slide-to-unlock show up in a patent and that patent then granted?

Does anyone really want to say that an implementation of that age-old stuff is patent-worthy just because it now uses a touch-screen? After all, keep in mind that touch screens/surfaces were not invented to make the most obscure input method possible, but quite the contrary: one important reason was to allow people to use methods that they are already familiar with, just on a touch surface, preferably and mostly one that also displays the image data, instead of a separate device.

So, go ahead and explain to me how slide-to-unlock can not be deemed obvious when implemented on a device with a touch screen/surface. Unless, of course, the patent examiners who granted the patent containing it was living in a cave before he got his job.

Greetings,

Chris
 
Here's claim 1 of the slide-to-unlock patent:

A method of unlocking a hand held electronic device the device including a touch sensitive display, the method comprising:
detecting a contact with the touch sensitive display at a first predefined location corresponding to an unlock image;
continuously moving the unlock image on the touch sensitive display in accordance with movement of the contact while continuous contact with the touch screen is maintained wherein the unlock image is a graphical interactive user interface object with which a user interacts in order to unlock the device; and
unlocking the hand held electronic device if the moving the unlock image on the touch sensitive display results in movement of the unlock image from the first predefined location to a predefined unlock region on the touch-sensitive display.

The priority date of this patent is December 23, 2005. Personally I think slide-to-unlock is brilliant, but feel free to explain what references existed in 2005 to teach a person of ordinary skill in the art of the touch interface to practice this invention as described.
 
Here's claim 1 of the slide-to-unlock patent:



The priority date of this patent is December 23, 2005. Personally I think slide-to-unlock is brilliant, but feel free to explain what references existed in 2005 to teach a person of ordinary skill in the art of the touch interface to practice this invention as described.

Is there a specific reason why you avoid addressing any of the points i made? Are you just pretending to be so stupid that you can't recognize the express purpose of touch-screens? Do you seriously deny or ignore the fact that sliding something to unlock something is ages old stuff?

I really have to wonder if you are really so obtuse that you can't see that what that claim describes is _exactly_ what one would do to use the locks i linked to, just using a virtual representation of it. A thing, mind you, that is one of the express purposes of touch screens: To allow the manipulation of virtual objects on a screen in a way that we are already familiar with from using real physical objects.

So, again, care to address the points i made?

Greetings,

Chris
 
Did you read the story linked in my last post? Lots of fun stuff there, like how Apple had to submit the patent for Siri 8 times, because the first 7 times it was rejected as "too obvious". They changed some words around which didn't change the form and function and scope of the patent one bit and on the 8th try managed to find a patent examiner to slip it past.

Ho ho ho! Innovation!


That's typical of how software patent submission works.

Corporations spend loads of money on lawyers to rephrase and resubmit the same patent until hey happen to luck out and get a patent examiner who approves it.
 
Here's claim 1 of the slide-to-unlock patent:



The priority date of this patent is December 23, 2005. Personally I think slide-to-unlock is brilliant, but feel free to explain what references existed in 2005 to teach a person of ordinary skill in the art of the touch interface to practice this invention as described.
You appear to be easily dazzled by bull[feces], like the Siri patent examiner who was finally convinced after the 10th submission that changing the word "documents" to "articles of information" and changing "software code" to "heuristic models" suddenly made what had been previously judged to be an obvious application into a non-obvious application.

Dress the application up in enough jargon and legalese and an unsphisticated patent examiner will let it slip through, just like you appear to be mightily impressed by the language of the slide to unlock patent. Describe a simple and obvious concept in a word salad of jargon and suddenly you get a patent.
 
That's typical of how software patent submission works.

Corporations spend loads of money on lawyers to rephrase and resubmit the same patent until hey happen to luck out and get a patent examiner who approves it.
Exactly, and with that patent in hand you can use it as a club to beat back competitors and prevent new actors from entering the market.
 
Personally I think slide-to-unlock is brilliant, but feel free to explain what references existed in 2005 to teach a person of ordinary skill in the art of the touch interface to practice this invention as described.


I had to go as far as Wikipedia to find an answer to that:

In the early 1980s General Motors tasked its Delco Electronics division with a project aimed at replacing an automobile's non essential functions (i.e. other than throttle, transmission, braking and steering) from mechanical or electro-mechanical systems with solid state alternatives wherever possible. The finished device was dubbed the ECC for "Electronic Control Center", a digital computer and software control system hardwired to various peripheral sensors, servos, solenoids, antenna and a monochrome CRT touchscreen that functioned both as display and sole method of input. The EEC replaced the traditional mechanical stereo, fan, heater and air conditioner controls and displays, and was capable of providing very detailed and specific information about the vehicles cumulative and current operating status in real time. The ECC was standard equipment on the 1985-1989 Buick Riviera and later the 1988-89 Buick Reatta, but was unpopular with consumers partly due to technophobia on behalf of some traditional Buick customers, but mostly because of costly to repair technical problems suffered by the ECC's touchscreen which being the sole access method, would render climate control or stereo operation impossible.

In 1986 the first graphical point of sale software was demonstrated on the 16-bit Atari 520ST color computer. It featured a color touchscreen widget-driven interface. The ViewTouch point of sale software was first shown by its developer, Gene Mosher, at Fall Comdex, 1986, in Las Vegas, Nevada to visitors at the Atari Computer demonstration area and was the first commercially available POS system with a widget-driven color graphic touch screen interface.

An early attempt at a handheld game console with touchscreen controls was Sega's intended successor to the Game Gear, though the device was ultimately shelved and never released due to the expensive cost of touchscreen technology in the early 1990s. Touchscreens would not be popularly used for video games until the release of the Nintendo DS in 2004. Until recently, most consumer touchscreens could only sense one point of contact at a time, and few have had the capability to sense how hard one is touching. This has changed with the commercialization of multi-touch technology.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Touchscreen#History


You really think that nobody had ever implemented a sliding switch on a touchscreen before the iPhone?
 
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Dress the application up in enough jargon and legalese and an unsphisticated patent examiner will let it slip through, just like you appear to be mightily impressed by the language of the slide to unlock patent. Describe a simple and obvious concept in a word salad of jargon and suddenly you get a patent.

Exactly. To make things even worse, slide-to-unlock is not only simple and obvious, it already existed for centuries in real-world mechanical devices, like the locks i linked to. Heck, if one would get the idea to argue "well, but those locks are slide-to-lock as well, not only slide-to-unlock": look at suitcases. You slide a knob sideways to unlock them, and only unlock them.

It's fascinating as well as frightening to see people flat out ignore the history of touch interfaces and why they were invented in the first place. They completely blank out these things and then go "ohhh, look, that genius there did something completely unexpected with a touchscreen!", which is just stupid.

I can only repeat myself: one of the express purposes of touch interfaces was and still is to allow people to use computers in a way they are more used to. Instead of fiddling with a mouse and pointer to indirectly manipulate objects on a screen, touchscreens allow the more direct and "natural" way of manipulating those objects by touching them on the screen. That's one big reason why touchscreens were developed in the first place.

It's just mind boggling how one can ignore all that and deny that it is friggin obvious to translate stuff like these locks onto touch screens.

Greetings,

Chris

ETA: While mostly about multi-touch, i can only (again) recommend to read this excellent page: http://www.billbuxton.com/multitouchOverview.html
 
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That's typical of how software patent submission works.

Corporations spend loads of money on lawyers to rephrase and resubmit the same patent until hey happen to luck out and get a patent examiner who approves it.

Apparently you missed my post above. That is quite specifically not how the patent process works. WildCat's description is factually inaccurate.
 

Pretty close, and right at about the same time too. However, this seems to use the less sophisticated version of the touchscreen interface where generic left-to-right and right-to-left movements anywhere on the screen are used for commands. A large part of what made the iPhone interesting was the flexibility associated with those movements being location-based, and that capability is necessary for the slide-to-unlock feature and not found in the N1M.

I found an article describing a Dutch case where that specific phone was one of the exhibits against a slide-to-unlock patent.
 
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They are clearly similar but there are interesting differences as well. The N1m appears to recognize the gesture as the unlock event whereas the iPhone recognizes the sliding of a user interface element from its starting position to the unlock position as the unlock event. On the N1m you're not "sliding" anything.

I make absolutely no claim on whether this is different enough from prior art to invalidate the patent but I do see some interesting differences. At the very least, prior art is not obvious to me in this case.
 

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