Merged Apollo "hoax" discussion - continuation thread

[sts60]

You claimed that there were "no spacecraft" in orbit, then you backtracked and claimed that you meant no manned spacecraft.

Were you lying, or are you just so absolutely, colossally ignorant of the subject that you don't understand that "spacecraft" can be manned or robotic? Your track record of honesty is, frankly, pretty awful, but my money in this case is on old reliable:

You have no idea what you're talking about. As usual.

 

[Jrrarglblarg]

Here's another photo of literal tin foil from NASA, the real conspiracy theorists:

Note:
- adhesive tape, non-uniform;
- re-used Mylar and aluminum foil;
- dented panels;
- otherwise cluttered exterior that should be TIDY (similar a fighter jet, hi-tech medical apparatus);
- antenna bent

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f8/Earth_over_Apollo_11_Lunar_Module.jpg

You are looking at low conduction path thermal cladding for a vacuum environment. It's purpose built for a very specific set of criteria. It isn't a fighter jet or a medical apparatus, nor did such things look then as they do now anyway.

Should you wish to break character and actually discuss this, we are willing and able to do so in excruciating mathematical detail. We've done it before.

 

[Kid Eager]

You are looking at low conduction path thermal cladding for a vacuum environment. It's purpose built for a very specific set of criteria. It isn't a fighter jet or a medical apparatus, nor did such things look then as they do now anyway.

Should you wish to break character and actually discuss this, we are willing and able to do so in excruciating mathematical detail. We've done it before.

Facts such as these are lost upon the target audience. You would better spend your time explaining the rules of Canasta to plastic flamingo.

 

[Lukraak_Sisser]

Seriously, can you imagine the heat rejection problems on typical science-fiction starfighter?

I can't. But that is due to my lack of expertise.
Is it possible to give a small explanation or link to a site where this is explained?
While I do love me my sci-fi I always would like to know, even in layman's terms, how such a thing would need to be done in real life.

 

[Foster Zygote]

You are looking at low conduction path thermal cladding for a vacuum environment. It's purpose built for a very specific set of criteria. It isn't a fighter jet or a medical apparatus, nor did such things look then as they do now anyway.

Should you wish to break character and actually discuss this, we are willing and able to do so in excruciating mathematical detail. We've done it before.

It isn't even the hull of the craft. It was suspended away from the structural hull on posts about 6" - 8" long.

 

[JayUtah]

I can't. But that is due to my lack of expertise.
Is it possible to give a small explanation or link to a site where this is explained?
While I do love me my sci-fi I always would like to know, even in layman's terms, how such a thing would need to be done in real life.

Science-fiction spacecraft typically ignore the effects of entry into a planet's atmosphere at high speeds, which produces a huge amount of aerodynamic heating. This heat must be dealt with in some way, in practical spacecraft. It is one of the most challenging parts of engineering a spacecraft that must land on Earth after traveling at space speeds.

 

[dasmiller]

I can't. But that is due to my lack of expertise.
Is it possible to give a small explanation or link to a site where this is explained?
While I do love me my sci-fi I always would like to know, even in layman's terms, how such a thing would need to be done in real life.

Think about your computer, for example: to keep the CPU cool, there's a little fan that pulls air over some cooling fins. But in space, there isn't any air, so the only way to get rid of heat is through radiation, and at moderate temperatures, that's a slow process. That's why thermos bottles work so well; there's a bit of vacuum separating the inside and outside walls so that heat can't be conducted out.

Space is basically a giant thermos bottle, without the bottle.

A typical communications satellite is the size of a minivan (not including the solar panels). A lot of the design is driven by thermal considerations, and it's dissipating just a few kilowatts of heat.

An actual minivan cruising on the freeway needs to dissipate ~200 kW of waste heat. If it was somehow running in space, and had big radiators like a comsat, it would be hot enough to melt any aluminum parts.

Of course, we don't have real numbers for, say, a TIE fighter, but I think it's safe to assume that it's a far more powerful than a minivan, and that means much more waste heat and, hence, much hotter.

 

[sts60]

I can't. But that is due to my lack of expertise.
Is it possible to give a small explanation or link to a site where this is explained?
While I do love me my sci-fi I always would like to know, even in layman's terms, how such a thing would need to be done in real life.

Think about how the Apollo CSM stack managed heat on its way to and from the Moon. It radiated away heat generated by its electronics and the crew, and used coatings to manage the incident heat directly from the Sun (on the order of 1400 W/m²) - and reflected from the Moon (albedo heating). There was also IR heating (solar heat absorbed and reradiated) from the Moon. The last two effects also occurred with the Earth, but the CSM didn't hang around the Earth very long.

You can manage the heating by pumping more or less internal heat to the radiators, turning heaters on or off, powering up or down other systems, or simple expedients by moving reflective window shades Recall during Apollo 13, the vehicle got uncomfortably cold when the crew closed the shades in an effort to sleep - on top of a CSM/LM stack that had its electronics powered down to the bare minimum.

So that's for a scientific spacecraft that doesn't have to fire energy weapons, or absorb energy from incident energy weapons. (Energy weapons are known things. If we postulate things like deflector screens, well, they presumably take a lot of energy to operate.) Plus, nice simple fuel cells won't cut it for such power needs; we're talking some sort of nuclear or antimatter power plant - which in itself will generate a ton of heat.

No, if you had a "fighter" the way they're popularly conceived on TV and in movies, you don't have the surface area to radiate away the heat. It would cook itself in short order. You'd need big honkin' radiators sticking out into space, which are vulnerable to hostile action and would snap off if you tried the dogfight snap-turns you see in fiction. (And don't get me started with "dogfights in space". In reality, you'd be pelting the other guy from thousands of miles away with kinetic weapons - basically, the BB Gun of the Gods.)

It isn't even the hull of the craft. It was suspended away from the structural hull on posts about 6" - 8" long.

Yeah, that was hilarious. MattMarriott/Kyoon is so abjectly clueless he thought he was looking at the structure of the LM.

Hey, Matt, aren't you even a little embarrassed by spouting such tremendously ignorant nonsense, when a few minutes Googling could have set you straight? Given that you literally don't even know what you're looking at, why should anyone pay attention to your ridiculous claims? This is not a trick question.

 

[sts60]

After posting the above, I realized I left out Earth-orbit Apollo missions like A9 (not to mention all the other orbital manned missions). Well, they get quite a bit of heat from the Earth (albedo heating over the day side, IR heating constantly). So they have to deal with that. But, for a typical manned Earth-orbit mission, you also get shade for a good chunk of your orbit. (That introduces other problems, like the solar-array flexing that bothered Hubble.)

 

[Foster Zygote]

Think about how the Apollo CSM stack managed heat on its way to and from the Moon. It radiated away heat generated by its electronics and the crew, and used coatings to manage the incident heat directly from the Sun (on the order of 1400 W/m²) - and reflected from the Moon (albedo heating). There was also IR heating (solar heat absorbed and reradiated) from the Moon. The last two effects also occurred with the Earth, but the CSM didn't hang around the Earth very long.

Then there's the "barbeque roll".

In reality, you'd be pelting the other guy from thousands of miles away with kinetic weapons - basically, the BB Gun of the Gods.)

I remember something called a sandcaster in the old Traveler RPG. But I think it was a defensive measure against energy weapons. But a missile that maneuvered in relatively close (say 50 to 100 miles) and then discharged a cloud of small pellets at a high rate of closure would be devastating.

 

[sts60]

Then there's the "barbeque roll".

Yep, although that's about distributing the heat, not controlling the net heat balance. IIRC, the LM landed in a specific orientation that accounted for the planned heat budget, i.e., not just any orientation would do. I know several posters here can confirm/deny that.

 

[Hans]

Then there's the "barbeque roll".



I remember something called a sandcaster in the old Traveler RPG. But I think it was a defensive measure against energy weapons. But a missile that maneuvered in relatively close (say 50 to 100 miles) and then discharged a cloud of small pellets at a high rate of closure would be devastating.

http://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Sandcaster

 

[sts60]

By the way, it seems MattMarriott/Kyoon has abandoned his ridiculous claim that the Apollo Guidance Computer couldn't do its job, and his equally ridiculous claim that there was no documentation ("source code").

When I say "abandoned", I mean "ran away", and when I say "his... claim", of course I mean "some crackpot website that he lapped up and regurgitated without any thought whatsoever, while telling people what gullible sheep they are", dontchaknow.

 

[Hans]

By the way, it seems MattMarriott/Kyoon has abandoned his ridiculous claim that the Apollo Guidance Computer couldn't do its job, and his equally ridiculous claim that there was no documentation ("source code").

When I say "abandoned", I mean "ran away", and when I say "his... claim", of course I mean "some crackpot website that he lapped up and regurgitated without any thought whatsoever, while telling people what gullible sheep they are", dontchaknow.

Par for the course - it is deliciously ironic that the one person in these threads that is thoroughly gullible is the same person telling everyone else that they are - but of course that is all part of performance.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Par for the course - it is deliciously ironic that the one person in these threads that is thoroughly gullible is the same person telling everyone else that they are - but of course that is all part of performance.

He aspires to be the Black Knight, but so far he's a bit more brave, brave Sir Robin.

 

[Hans]

He aspires to be the Black Knight, but so far he's a bit more brave, brave Sir Robin.

Yes and wearing a pink colored depends.

 

[Gord_in_Toronto]

I had not been following this thread for reasons I will leave to my fellow Forumites.

But I just checked in. What a great thread it has turned into! Lots of info from the real experts.

I've not much to add but a couple of little factoids:

PaintShop (V.1.0) was released in August 1990. First Moon landing July 20, 1969.

When Apollo 13 had its problems the University of Toronto Institute for Aerospace Studies was asked to calculate some critical pressure levels. This they did with their slide rules. Correctly and successfully.

 

[theprestige]

Sorry, I meant that was not my claim that sts60 quoted, "we can't see Jupiter from Earth".

Does this mean you think Jupiter is real?

 

[JayUtah]

Lots of info from the real experts.

Not only experts but also passionate non-experts. There really is no excuse for not knowing about Apollo's science and engineering if you have a need or mind to do it. Unlike many conspiracy theories, there is really nothing secret or classified or undiscoverable around which to build a theory; the claimants generally have to bluff about the secrecy and hope their readers don't know how to Google.

PaintShop (V.1.0) was released in August 1990. First Moon landing July 20, 1969.

But guess what? Digital image processing was actually performed on Apollo photographs, back in 1969. Some of the 70 mm magazines carried on Apollo 9 contained special film capturing precise wavelengths, much the way we capture precise wavelengths digitally for remote sensing. The film was digitized on an Itek scanner, then a photocopier-sized machine, then processed on various mainframe computers using 9-track tapes as the storage medium.

This they did with their slide rules. Correctly and successfully.

I proudly still have my specimen of the type of slide rule used by The Trench in MOCR during the Apollo missions. They were a common brand back in the late 1950s and early 1960s. And I gave as gifts for a couple of fellow Apollo enthusiasts the six-inch model of the same slide-rule brand carried aboard the Apollo command module. Powerful tools in the hands of skilled professionals.

 

[abaddon]

Not only experts but also passionate non-experts. There really is no excuse for not knowing about Apollo's science and engineering if you have a need or mind to do it. Unlike many conspiracy theories, there is really nothing secret or classified or undiscoverable around which to build a theory; the claimants generally have to bluff about the secrecy and hope their readers don't know how to Google.




But guess what? Digital image processing was actually performed on Apollo photographs, back in 1969. Some of the 70 mm magazines carried on Apollo 9 contained special film capturing precise wavelengths, much the way we capture precise wavelengths digitally for remote sensing. The film was digitized on an Itek scanner, then a photocopier-sized machine, then processed on various mainframe computers using 9-track tapes as the storage medium.



I proudly still have my specimen of the type of slide rule used by The Trench in MOCR during the Apollo missions. They were a common brand back in the late 1950s and early 1960s. And I gave as gifts for a couple of fellow Apollo enthusiasts the six-inch model of the same slide-rule brand carried aboard the Apollo command module. Powerful tools in the hands of skilled professionals.

Ahh, nostalgia. I used to have great fun with Smith Charts back in the day. All largely forgotten now, of course, but there was something satisfying about working it all out by hand.