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Merged Apollo "hoax" discussion - continuation thread

Why limit it to manned flights? Do you think other spacecraft are not bothered by radiation? Do you realize that there are other spacefaring nations besides the United States? Do you realize that the commercial spacefaring industry, which operates in and beyond the Van Allen belts, is a tens-of-billions-of-dollars per year industry?
It may effect unmanned flights , but my statement about manned rocket powered flights stand unchallenged !!

If you say so. How many times have people been to the Marianas Trench?
What does that have to do with the price of rice in China ! As my old friend would always say when someone brought up an unrelated thought in a conversation !

Okay, let's talk numbers. 7 g cm-2. Tell me why that isn't enough for the trajectory Apollo followed. Show your work.
That has nothing to do with my hypothesis !!

Or I know because it's the sort of thing I do for a living. As I warned you, not everyone you will encounter is a layman on such matters.

Your information appears to come from Internet radio and crackpot web sites. Who's really the gullible one here?
Sorry if I'm upsetting you ! I'm undaunted by name calling however !!
 
It's ok it's for national security !! I'm from Iowa City !! Where the real story still looms !!

It's bad enough the whole country thinks that we Iowans are a pack of ignorant morons, and here you come along and attempt to prove it.

Sigh.

For the record, Wallnut is a very tiny minority of what and who Iowans are.

Phil
 
Don't waste your breath. He's not serious (though quite bothersome).
 
......but there isn't enough shielding on an Appolo craft to make the trip unshielded !

Where oh where are those pesky stundies.

Apparently, the shielding on the unshielded Apollo craft was insufficient because your "hypothesis" says so:boggled: You do know that a hypothesis is not a mad idea sourced from butt central don't you?

I don't think anybody noticed you running away from the question because it flies higher above your head than the Van Halen belts:D
 
The DIFbats present more cogent arguments than this. Embarassing performance so far. I give it a week before the producers pull this fiasco off stage with a cane.
 
It's bad enough the whole country thinks that we Iowans are a pack of ignorant morons, and here you come along and attempt to prove it.

Sigh.

For the record, Wallnut is a very tiny minority of what and who Iowans are.

Phil

Actually he is the second Iowan that I know of who has such tendencies.

I believe we may need to quarantine that state.
 
It may effect unmanned flights , but my statement about manned rocket powered flights stand unchallenged !!

So you're saying that nothing on an unmanned spacecraft is the least bit affected by radiation? Is that your claim? So those people who believed they could charge their phones in the microwave weren't really tricked into wrecking them? Great, now I can't even trust the Internet.

But now that you mention it, I'm really scared. See, when we revised the 601HP chassis into the 701, some stuff got shifted around to simplify assembly. The rad-hard avionics threw off the mass properties and it took quite a while to sort that out. Since according to you we could have left off that big pile of aluminum shielding with no ill effects, I'm afraid Boeing's going to come after me for overcharging them. Can you recommend a good lawyer?

What does that have to do with the price of rice in China !

Well, let's see. You told us that something isn't historically valid until it's repeated and made into an ongoing, commonplace thing. So how many times have we sent people to the Marianas Trench? We need to know just how far your scientific and historical denialism extends. You know, for science. A lot of textbooks are going to need revising for singular events.

That thing back in 1944 wasn't a fake, as far as I know, so that means they must land soldiers at Normandy every year. Or do they do it monthly, since it was timed on a lunar cycle? I have a family reunion in June, so I apologize if I can't make the yearly re-enactment of ... every historical event ever.

That has nothing to do with my hypothesis !!

Oh, I see. You tell us blatantly that the Apollo ship wasn't sufficiently shielded. I give you the actual shielding factor and ask you to show how that's not enough, and all of a sudden the question becomes irrelevant. So if we needed the alien mother ship's shielding to get past the radiation, and the actual amount of shielding isn't relevant, where do we stand on the aliens? Are they also now irrelevant?

Did the Nazi kamikaze need any shielding? Er, I guess it would be a German word, not a Japanese one. Dummkopfenflugmensch?

Is the math part uncertain? Maybe Jeff Rense has something on his site to help, since he's such a physics guru. I was under the impression the only thing you needed to be a talk radio host was a pulse. (I used to think you also needed a good voice, but then I worked with Larry King once.) Good to know that those broadcast journalism majors also get degrees in medicine, scientific methodology, mathematics, and astrophysics. Otherwise we'd be in danger of having them seriously mislead their audience.

Seriously, how many grams per square centimeter of radiation shielding would you need in order to be able to fly safely enough to the Moon? 7 obviously isn't enough. What's the real number? 8? 10? 42? 5,300? Can I at least get a ballpark figure and some back-of-the-envelope math to back it up? Obviously the aliens knew, so maybe you can find where in the CIA files they told us.

(Or maybe there's a reason why no one in the aerospace industry doubts the authenticity of Apollo.)

And you seem to misunderstand my intent. I'm not upset. I'm laughing my [anatomy] off, but not for the expected reason. I understand the comedy routine, but as others have said, you're not really giving us much material to work with. It's just not that funny. The alien claim sort of petered out before it really got started. You could have gone a lot farther with the Nazi routine too, but left that behind. If you're going to talk about a human-guided Nazi ICBM, at least paint a mental picture of a pilot with a baron mustache wearing the classic pointy-spike helmet and goggles. And you have to make the cockpit just a bit too small so his knees stick up. And just when the laughter from that dies out, you give the rocket a sidecar. Even Nazis can be funny if you present it right. Look at Dr. Strangelove.

But when all you do is allude to a few of the actual hoax claims, the humor just gets too watered down. And then you get silly rubes like me who take it seriously despite all the contrary advice. And I have to address the actual claims -- because we have lurkers who might want to see the real answer. But tying it together takes too long. Do you have any idea how hard it is to make the idea of center-of-gravity funny?

Go back and read the beginnings of this thread. That guy at least had a poop fixation and a supporting cast of hilarious sock puppets. And the "prices in China" bit, which you just threw away above? That guy got literally whole paragraphs out of China and tea and stuff. Now that's the way to engage an audience!
 
I have adopted a theory of my own: if on reading a post, one can't tell the difference between satire and a sincere belief, then it doesn't really matter which is which. A serious response presenting the actual facts is unlikely to be what the poster seeks in either case.
 
The space before the punctuation marks is a clue, for those paying attention to the axiom of non-traditional formatting as mark of woo.
 
Wallnut, I gave you fair warning that while I would give you the benefit of the doubt, you'd need to respond in an adult manner, not with comic-book arguments. But this is what you come back with:
46 years and no other manned flight by any country has returned to the Van Allen belt ! We keep hearing China will go in 2025 ! If it were real it would be common place by now!
Nonsense. The Apollo program required on the order of a million man-years of effort, and cost something like US$120 billion dollars in today's money. It was possible because of a very rare set of challenges and circumstances, and it was curtailed dramatically while in progress. The last three lunar missions were canceled, and President Nixon almost canceled Apollo 16 and 17. Your claim that "it should be common" ignores both the difficulty of doing such missions and very basic budgetary and political realities.
We have the TR3b and TR3c in our black projects that go all the time
I have plenty of well-substantiated evidence of the Apollo missions taking place just as claimed. As I asked in
my post 989, what actual evidence do you have for the existence of such super-duper antigravity "mother ships"? I don't mean unsubstantiated claims invoking magic technology. I don't even mean sightings of possible advanced stealthy jet aircraft. I mean exactly what evidence do you have for a spacecraft that can easily fly back and forth to the Moon while Apollo couldn't?
but there isn't enough shielding on an Appolo craft to make the trip unshielded !
Really? Exactly why do you claim that? Please provide (a) your model of the space radiation environment, (b) your evidence for such a model, (c) your shielding model for the Apollo spacecraft, and (d) your quantitative analysis of the crew exposure based on (a) and (b) plus the known Apollo trajectories. Also, please provide (e) your exact justification for claiming an impossible radiation environment for Apollo that magically fails to dramatically shorten the lifespan of unmanned spacecraft operating in, as well as beyond, the Van Allen belts. If you tell me that unmanned spaceraft wouldn't be affected, as someone who has acutally built and operated such spacecraft, I will point and laugh at you.

I told you, I work in this business. Don't come here waving your hands about "not enough shielding" and just expect me to believe you, especially when you didn't even know there was more than one trapped particle radiation belt.
That's why I believe the Mother ship was used !
What mother ship? All you've done is point to fantasy articles that extrapolate reasonable surmise about advanced stealthy aircraft to nuclear-powered antigravity vehicles that are simultaneously "low-altitude" surveillance aircraft and Mach 9 interplanetary spaceships... that are simultaneously top-secret and casually operated over interstate highways.

Your claim for the "mother ship", in other words, is based on crackpot claims that aren't even internally consistent. Do you, in fact, have anything at all to support your "mother ship" claim?
You don't have to believe it you can just sit here year after year and say back in the good old days we could fly right up there with a rocket craft I know because that's what I was told !!
I'd say "nice try". but just about every Apollo conspiracy believer trots out this tired chestnut. What's especially funny is that you're the one lapping up the crank web sites, while I'm the one who actually does this for a living. But you don't need to be an expert to see through your claims. There are many interested "laymen" who have taken the time to educate themselves and figure it out. Bob B., who is a civil engineer, performed a complete qualitative estimate of Apollo crew radiation exposures. What's your excuse?

No leg pulling here !!
...I still think you're trolling, but if you want to engage like a grown-up, I'll give you a chance. Otherwise, I'm not going to waste my time.
Strike One.
 
Don't quote me and say we didn't go to the moon !
No, it is worse, we went but it was with some fantasy version born in BS.

That summarizes all the science moon landing deniers, and BS fantasy presenters will bring. BS will flow was the prediction, and it came true.

No leg pulling, lots of nonsense. Why did you pick the anti-intellectual fantasy method of presenting lies and BS?

If moon landing deniers/fantasy version presenters could do science, would they could skip the BS.

... Appolo craft to make the trip unshielded ...
Oh, Appolo craft did not make it, you are right. Apollo craft did.

Where can we find these crackpot claims you adopted? Is this original work, or plagiarized from the all knowing Internet.
 
Wallnut:

If some extraterrestrial "Mother ship" could successfully navigate the Van Allen belt, any alien occupants must have possessed the material technology to shield their ship(s) against the radiation.

With me so far? Good!

If they (the aliens) could discover, develop and install this shielding or plating technology, it follows that so, too, could we. After all, any putative aliens would have had to develop the shielding technology at some point in their history.

The simpler explanation, then, is that there was no Mother ship, and that we ourselves (meaning NASA) developed and installed the shielding.

If you have any evidence -- or even some logical explanation -- to the contrary, please present it. Otherwise I'm afraid you're just wasting everyone's time here.
 
Being new I cannot yet post links...


You ever notice it's invariably the bold unconventional thinker types (or "B.U.T.T.") who can never seem to figure out one of a few trivially simple ways to get around the newbie link-posting limitation? I wonder why that is?


It may effect unmanned flights , but my statement about manned rocket powered flights stand unchallenged !!


What does that have to do with the price of rice in China ! As my old friend would always say when someone brought up an unrelated thought in a conversation !


That has nothing to do with my hypothesis !!


Sorry if I'm upsetting you ! I'm undaunted by name calling however !!


Clearly you're obsessed with space, which might explain the unnecessary space between the ends of your sentences and the apparently inevitable exclamation points. Still, you're getting lots of attention, so that must be a nice change of pace for you.
 
I'm sure Walnut is trembling with fear now...
Ha, well, I'm not pretending strike 3 would mean anything more than me concluding he's a troll and depriving him of a bit of attention - mine, specifically. Given his engagement level, I doubt he'd even notice.
 
I have been trying to remember where I heard this but it hasn't come to me yet ! The story is part of an upcoming WW2 book that talks about a manned ICBM that the nazi's tested twice ! The second test was a flight toward Tokyo where the pilot bailed out successfully guiding the rocket to target ! If the war had gone on 6 more months Hitler was going to nuke New York with this system ! I heard this on an Intenet radio show within the past week but like I said I cannot remember witch one , but if it is true the info will soon be out there ! How's that for rocketry ! :jaw-dropp

As a hard core World War 2 aviation buff all I can say is response to this drivel is:

:dl: :dl: :dl::dl: :dl:
 
I have been trying to remember where I heard this but it hasn't come to me yet ! The story is part of an upcoming WW2 book that talks about a manned ICBM that the nazi's tested twice ! The second test was a flight toward Tokyo where the pilot bailed out successfully guiding the rocket to target ! If the war had gone on 6 more months Hitler was going to nuke New York with this system ! I heard this on an Intenet radio show within the past week but like I said I cannot remember witch one , but if it is true the info will soon be out there ! How's that for rocketry !

Eugen Sanger's rocket bomber concept got as far as making wind-tunnel models and grandiose statements about flying across the Atlantic at speeds between 4 and 10 km/s. No flight models were ever built.
More info on Wikipedia under "Silbervogel."

"Postwar analysis of the Silbervogel design involving a mathematical control analysis unearthed a computational error and it turned out that the heat flow during the initial atmospheric re-entry would have been far higher than originally calculated by Sänger and Bredt; if the Silbervogel had been constructed according to their flawed calculations the craft would have been destroyed during re-entry." (Wikipedia)

As for nuking anybody, the Nazi atom bomb program consisted of several under-funded rival groups spinning their wheels and getting nowhere.
 
I have been trying to remember where I heard this but it hasn't come to me yet ! The story is part of an upcoming WW2 book that talks about a manned ICBM that the nazi's tested twice ! The second test was a flight toward Tokyo where the pilot bailed out successfully guiding the rocket to target ! If the war had gone on 6 more months Hitler was going to nuke New York with this system ! I heard this on an Intenet radio show within the past week but like I said I cannot remember witch one , but if it is true the info will soon be out there ! How's that for rocketry ! :jaw-dropp


It has nothing to do with rocketry, but a lot to do with woo-etry.
Ignore the silly woo radio stations and websites.
The "Space Race" is a fascinating subject without the added baloney.
 
Eugen Sanger's rocket bomber concept got as far as making wind-tunnel models and grandiose statements about flying across the Atlantic at speeds between 4 and 10 km/s. No flight models were ever built.
More info on Wikipedia under "Silbervogel."

"Postwar analysis of the Silbervogel design involving a mathematical control analysis unearthed a computational error and it turned out that the heat flow during the initial atmospheric re-entry would have been far higher than originally calculated by Sänger and Bredt; if the Silbervogel had been constructed according to their flawed calculations the craft would have been destroyed during re-entry." (Wikipedia)

As for nuking anybody, the Nazi atom bomb program consisted of several under-funded rival groups spinning their wheels and getting nowhere.

And Atomic Physics were always looked at with some distaste by the high ups in the Nazi Party because so many of the pioneers of Atomic science were Jewish.
 

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