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Apollo 11 Moon Landing Revisited: Hoax ~vs~ Debunk

And it's piss easy to carry 30lbs on my back. septic pubis.
If you are now the equivalent of 30lbs, no it would not.
Well, that's stupid. How could anyone say such a thing and actually believe what they're saying?

(That's a rhetorical question, which I will answer below.)

Err! Do the maths. The Moon's gravity is 1/6th of the Earth's. That also applies to you as well as your backpack.
As a trained mathematician, I am qualified to do the math. (Although, as a trained mathematician, I cannot refrain from remarking that it's really just third grade arithmetic, combined with an eighth-grader's knowledge of force, weight, and mass.)

It is true that the moon's gravity is 1/6th of the earth's, which applies to me as well as to my backpack. Which means the force my legs have to exert to support my own weight on the moon (with nothing on my back) is 1/6th of the force they would have to exert on earth. If I weigh 180 pounds on earth, then that force is 180 pounds on earth, but my legs need only exert 30 pounds of force to keep me standing on the moon.

If I'm standing upright on earth, with 180 pounds on my back and the 180 pounds still in my body, then my legs must exert 360 pounds of upward force.

(That's a lot, but my legs have done it. Many years ago, I hiked most of the way up Mt Thielsen with a gymnastics instructor who regarded me as a mere mathematician, hence incapable of athletic accomplishment. On a long stretch of 20% grade, she was having to stop often to catch her breath. When she expressed her surprise that I wasn't even breathing hard, I offered to carry her for a while. She scoffed: "You couldn't carry me." I picked her up in a bridal carry—which wasn't hard, because she weighed about 100 pounds—and proceeded up the mountain at a faster pace than she had been able to maintain. She smiled in anticipation of mocking my incipient fatigue. Several minutes later, she was no longer smiling. "Okay, you've proved your point. Put me down!" Had she weighed twice as much, I'd have used a fireman's carry, and I wouldn't have been able to go uphill as fast or far. But my legs were certainly strong enough to support 360 pounds.)

If I were on the moon, with that same object on my back, my legs would only have to exert 60 pounds of force. Because my legs are strong enough to exert 180 pounds of force when I'm on the earth and walking around with nothing on my back, my legs are way more than strong enough to exert the 60 pounds needed to carry that object on the moon.

But @Vixen disagrees:
We weren't talking about lifting or centre of gravity; just (a) how much you would theoretically weigh on the Moon and (b) your same weight as yourself backpack.

Or, imagine you are there with your identical weight chum.

You both are the still the same pro-rata weight on the Moon.

Anyway, never mind.
Yes, the ratio of our weights is the same on the moon as on the earth. But our actual weights on the moon are 1/6th what they were on earth, hence 6 times as easy for our legs to support.

It seems clear to me that @Vixen believes the force one's legs can support undergoes a change on the moon, in direct proportion to the change in one's weight. That is exceedingly stupid, but I see no other way to explain why @Vixen continues to repeat the surpassingly stupid argument she has been repeating.

I don't believe Vixen is really this ignorant, therefore ...
I believe she is.

Consider, for example, her admonition to "Do the maths." Although her arguments fail at the level of third-grade arithmetic and eighth-grade physics, she genuinely believes she can do the math (in my country, mathematicians say math, not maths) better than any of those who are arguing with her in this thread. She also believes she understands the physics better than those with whom she is arguing. Apparently (although this is an inference) she believes she understands, better than anyone else, how the strength of a person's legs diminishes on the moon in direct proportion to the diminished weight of that person.

Which leads her to repeat her fabulously ignorant argument, which leads some to doubt her sincerity.

I do not doubt her sincerity. Just as the gymnast I mentioned in the spoiler assumed she was more athletic than her hiking companion, @Vixen assumes she is better at math, physics, and physiology than anyone else here.

She's wrong about that. But assuming you know a great deal more than you do is a very common cognitive bias. We very seldom see such an excellent example of that bias, but we see that bias a lot more often than we see the degree of dishonesty it would take for her to stick to her absurd argument if she weren't absurdly ignorant of the math, physics, and physiology she is getting wrong. That is why I defend her honesty and sincerity.

Some may wonder why I never go all the way to the top of Mt Thielsen. The main reason is that the last 100 vertical feet are technical. On my hike with the gymnast, it became clear that she couldn't hike fast enough to get above timberline in time for us to get back down before dark. So I let her wait on the trail while I ran up the trail and partway up the talus slope that ends at the technical climb.
upperThielsenFromPCTaSmall.jpg
 
EXACTLY. So if you were carrying YOUR weight on your back you'd naturally lean forward.
This is absolutely the wrong way to think about the problem and why such problems must be solved by appropriately trained and licensed people when the public safety is at stake. You would kill people if you tried to do this work. This "ratio" business you are stuck on is irrelevant. I've explained several times how it is irrelevant. Expressing the weight of the backpack as "your weight" or some ratio of "your weight" does not properly formulate the problem.

Imagine a person just standing there with no backpack. If that person weighs 180 lbs on Earth, that person would weigh 30 lbs on the Moon. But since that weight is directly over his feet in both cases, it's a simple case of axial loading. There's no part of the load that can be considered eccentric, therefore no moment.

Now wave a magic wand and suddenly a backpack appears on the person's back. That doesn't change the axial loading part of the problem. So the weight that causes that axial loading doesn't factor into any balance equation. Therefore it doesn't matter whether it's Earth weight or Moon weight. We simply disregard the man's own weight. It's not part of the equation.

Since we started doing this in EES we'll have to continue. The moment arm for the backpack is about 1 ft. That's factoring in the average thickness of the human torso and the known thickness of the PLSS. If the PLSS weighs 150 lbs on Earth, that's a moment (or torque, if you prefer) of 150 pounds-feet (lbf⋅ft). It literally doesn't matter what fraction that might be of the person's weight. The person's weight is being properly borne axially and therefore it does not contribute to any tipping moment.

That same PLSS would weigh only 25 lbs on the Moon. Again, it doesn't matter in the slightest what percentage that might be of the axial-only loading in lunar gravity. Only the eccentric load contributes to the moment. The moment here is 25 lbf⋅ft.

That is absolute.

How that moment applies depends on how you model the response of the man. People are squishy, so you can model it as a bending moment acting at the man's shoulders. The man's response would be plastic deformation backwards.

But you are specifically concerned with a tipping moment, which is the balance problem. We therefore consider the astronaut to be a vertical rigid body in gravity attached to a pivot at the feet. Now we need to consider the problem as a triangle. You have an eccentric gravity load applied at a certain shoulder height—say 5 feet. The 1-ft moment arm doesn't change with gravity. The resulting hypotenuse—5.1 ft—doesn't change with gravity. All these are geometric properties of the problem that maintain their relationships irrespective of gravity.

But we have to decompose the moment (or torque) along that hypotenuse to find out how much of the eccentric gravity load acts perpendicular to the hypotenuse and therefore the tipping moment. Again, the astronaut's axial load (his own body weight) is not part of this equation. Gravity always acts down, but the part of it acting along the hypotenuse changes as the topple happens and the hypotenuse becomes more horizontal. Since that's a more advanced topic, we start with the initial moment.

The hypotenuse is 11.3º off vertical, so the portion of the eccentric load W acting perpendicular to it, F, is

F = (sin 11.3º) W = 0.196 W

Solving for W = 150 lbs yields 29.4 lbs. Acting over a 5.1 ft moment arm gives 149.94 lbf⋅ft.
Solving for W = 25 lbs yields. 4.9 lbs. Acting over a 5.1 ft moment arm gives 24.99 lbf⋅ft.

24.99 is much less than 149.94, therefore the tipping moment is much less.

But of course as an astronaut begins to topple, that axial load of his own weight becomes an eccentric load as soon as he is far enough off vertical. That moment arm is 3.3 ft long (to his body center of gravity), and the value acting over it is the astronaut's weight. The problem is set up the same way, for some given angle of astronaut lean. If the astronaut has tipped 10º off vertical, the eccentric load of the backpack would be computed from 11.3º (the initial eccentricity) + 10º total system lean. The newly eccentric load of the astronaut would use just the 10º lean, the astronaut's weight alone in lunar gravity, and the moment arm of 3.3 ft. Then you combine the two. The entire problem literally scales by the 1/6 gravity ratio and gives you 1/6 as much tipping moment no matter what values you use for the astronaut mass and backpack mass.

Now the engineer will soon realize that if everything is a rigid body, you can reformulate the whole problem by recomputing the combined system's total new center of gravity and just do one moment arm calculation. That's more involved for irregularly shaped bodies, but there are straightforward (though tedious) ways to accomplish it. When you get into it, you realize that the mass-at-a-distance computations start to look a lot like what we did above. The same math that lets us decompose different moments according to system components gets folded into the total system mass properties calculation. The latter is how we do it in practice.

Err! Do the maths.
Done. You're wrong.
 
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In the UK that is a secondary school physics problem. A pretty advanced one but certainly for bright fifteen year olds.
That's about when American high school students learn trigonometry and can do 2D vector problems.

The objects we work with in our design system are arbitrary shapes formed as boundary representations using tensor-product B-spline surfaces. To find the center of mass, total mass, and moments of inertia for these components, you need some pretty gnarly calculus, but we did that work decades ago for our system and don't need to change it. Then when you assemble components together (like attaching a backpack to an astronaut) you can sometimes treat them as discrete point masses, as I did with the problem above.
 
In freefall an 80Kg astronaut weighs nothing. If he then tried to lift a 20Kg supply container, the weight ratio would be 0/0, which is infinite.
Eh, no.

x/n, as n approaches zero, approaches an infinity in the limit only for x≠0. Otherwise the limit does not exist.

The astronaut and the container would immediately collapse into a back hole.
Yes, because where laws become mathematically undefined is what we call a singularity and where we describe it as "the laws of physics breaking down." 😁

That's how we know all those videos of astronauts bouncing around inside the ISS like Sonny the Cuckoo Bird going cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs are faked.
Life is good in the singularity.
 
With much appreciation of the recent efforts of both W.D. Clinger and JayUtah, I think you misunderstood. You did real math when you were expected to do Vixen math.

Although maybe Vixen will be along shortly to post "I see I was wrong. Thank you for the correction."
 
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We weren't talking about lifting or centre of gravity; just (a) how much you would theoretically weigh on the Moon and (b) your same weight as yourself backpack.
You're confusing two different problems.

How much you would "theoretically weigh on the Moon" is a simple sum and a scaling factor. If you weigh X pounds on Earth, you weigh X/6 pounds on the Moon. If you have a backpack that weighs Y pounds on Earth, it will weigh Y/6 pounds on the Moon. The combined weight is X pounds + Y pounds on Earth. It's X/6 pounds + Y/6 pounds = (X+Y pounds)/6 on the Moon.

If you can lift Z pounds on Earth, you can lift Z pounds on the Moon. That's what lifting means.

That has absolutely nothing to do with whether you will tip over because you're off balance. If you want to solve that problem, you very much have to bring geometry into it, which is all about center of gravity, moment arms, and vector arithmetic.

Somehow the words, "You don't know at all what you're talking about," don't seem adequate.
 
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With much appreciation of the recent efforts of both W.D. Clinger and JayUtah, I think you misunderstood. You did real math when you were expected to do Vixen math.
I think I would have to slam my head in the car door several times before I could do math on Vixen's level. I'm still waiting to discover in exactly what way her claim of being "a numbers person" means anything.
 
EXACTLY. So if you were carrying YOUR weight on your back you'd naturally lean forward.


SHEEE-EEEESH!!!!
Vixen, I've already posted this. SHEEE-EEEESH!!!!
AS11-40-5875.jpg

Making a big performance of how exasperated you are by the stupidity of those who dispute your self-perceived analytical genius and accept the reality of the Apollo Program only makes them laugh when you're premises (in this case that the astronauts are all standing perfectly vertically) are so demonstrably wrong.

Again, I'm reminded of that guy who said that the heliocentric model would mean we'd see entirely different constellations six months apart, in complete ignorance of the fact that we do. He meant his comment with every bit as much condescension as your above "SHEEE-EEEESH!!!!", but only succeeded in making a fool of himself.
 
In freefall an 80Kg astronaut weighs nothing. If he then tried to lift a 20Kg supply container, the weight ratio would be 0/0, which is infinite.
Eh, no.

x/n, as n approaches zero, approaches an infinity in the limit only for x≠0. Otherwise the limit does not exist.
@Myriad was joking, of course, but the limit does exist when you take into account the one and only thing that @Vixen's been right about: that the diminished gravity affects the astronaut and the thing he's trying to lift in equal proportion.

Using @Myriad's example of an 80kg astronaut and 20kg supply container, the 4:1 ratio of those masses implies a 4:1 ratio of their weights, and we're interested in what happens to the ratio of weights as both approach zero. Which is to say, we're interested in f(x) = 4x/x as x approaches 0. That limit does exist, and its value is 4.
 

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