These two sets of statistics can't be meaningfully compared.
There are no NZers in prison but 11% of the population are NZers. What a law-abiding bunch they are!
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Apartheid alive & well. In NZ.
- Thread starter The Atheist
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These two sets of statistics can't be meaningfully compared.
There are no NZers in prison but 11% of the population are NZers. What a law-abiding bunch they are!
The Atheist
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Yes; not to mention that in any NZ forum, we'd be up to 20 pages by now!
Well out all round.
Yep, and I wouldn't deny it, but I've also noted that Pasifika people have been severely discriminated against since we were kind enough to import them to do all the dirty jobs. They are still, I believe, genuinely disadvantaged.
Sad but often true.
gumboot
lorcutus.tolere
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I think they can. We can make some pretty reasonable assumptions about the ethnicity of "New Zealander" by comparing the statistics in previous censuses in which there was no "New Zealander" category. About half of them are Europeans, for starters.
As an American, it has been interesting and enlightening--on several levels--to read this thread.
One of the things I find most concerning is the "I've never seen it, so it doesn't happen" perspective from some posters. Having grown up in Greater Seattle, one of the most liberal areas in the US, I thought that there was no issue left of racism in this country. Why did we still have this "equal opportunity" BS when clearly the issue was gone?
Then I became friends with a mixed-race couple, and I discovered that discrimination based upon race is alive and well; but it's not public anymore. They had to deal with such idiotic behavior as her being able to look at an apartment for rent, but him being told that "it was already rented;" with problems getting their yacht stored at a particular club, because "you're okay, but I worry about who you might have visit;" and with her being harassed at certain clubs when he was in the restroom.
Racism is alive and well, but it's now largely kept to situations where the bigot feels safe in their bigotry. TA, I'm not surprised that there weren't incidents of anti-Maori discrimination in places with a large Maori population! It's far more likely in a place where the whites are both numerically and socially more dominant. I'll bet there is more anti-white activity in places where they are an acute minority, too.
The question of how to compensate for past injustices is complex, and I don't pretend to have all the answers. Agreed, with several posters, that part of the issue is just one of multi-generational poverty, abuse, and hopelessness, regardless of the racial backgrounds involved. Poverty, dependence, and the cycle of abuse exist around the world, and all require an acknowledgment by the 'downtrodden people' that their own culture of victimization is part of the problem. That attitude change from, "The Man is against me, I can't win" to "I'm going to make my life different than my parents had; and I'm going to make my children's lives even better" doesn't happen quickly, and probably will not reach all parties. But that's only part of the solution, because the impact of generations denied (or having sharply reduced) the chance to accumulate physical capital, education, and pride in achievement is real and prevalent.
While the targetting of racial groups for benefits may not be ideal, it may turn out to be a necessary step...a way of saying, with actions, This country took away your land, traditions, culture and language; here is a small gesture towards giving you some ability to protect what is left, and perhaps recover some before it is all lost. It's a show of goodwill--but it must be explicitly offered and maintained as compensation for past mistakes, NOT giving a weaker people a hand because they can't make it on their own.
Nobody has done a good job dealing with their historical injustices; but having some kind of mechanism for assessing, recognizing, and if need be offering reparations for past evils seems to me to be a necessary step. It is necessary, but it is not sufficient; and it should not be permanent.
We just elected a dark-skinned man to the highest office in the country, and that's something I view with satisfaction, even pride, in how far we've come since even my childhood. But it's not a 'done deal' yet, by any means, that America has integrated itself culturally or economically. What it does mean is that the stage is set for President Obama to say to the activists and concerned citizens of the black community, "Now you need to do your part, too. The road is open to you, if you do the work, take the risks, and pick yourself up when you fall. Time to stop blaming it all on whitey, and do some looking in the mirror."
It seems, from this distant view of your beautiful land, that you too need to keep trying to find ways that lead to progress-imperfect though they may be--and use them all.
I look forward to watching this thread go on, and I hope that reasoned discussion hold up beneath the barrage of anger and frustration. Important, hard issues are by their nature ones that invoke great passion; but too ugly a wording makes the content of a post all-but unseeable.
Just my thoughts (as usual), Miss Kitt
One of the things I find most concerning is the "I've never seen it, so it doesn't happen" perspective from some posters. Having grown up in Greater Seattle, one of the most liberal areas in the US, I thought that there was no issue left of racism in this country. Why did we still have this "equal opportunity" BS when clearly the issue was gone?
Then I became friends with a mixed-race couple, and I discovered that discrimination based upon race is alive and well; but it's not public anymore. They had to deal with such idiotic behavior as her being able to look at an apartment for rent, but him being told that "it was already rented;" with problems getting their yacht stored at a particular club, because "you're okay, but I worry about who you might have visit;" and with her being harassed at certain clubs when he was in the restroom.
Racism is alive and well, but it's now largely kept to situations where the bigot feels safe in their bigotry. TA, I'm not surprised that there weren't incidents of anti-Maori discrimination in places with a large Maori population! It's far more likely in a place where the whites are both numerically and socially more dominant. I'll bet there is more anti-white activity in places where they are an acute minority, too.
The question of how to compensate for past injustices is complex, and I don't pretend to have all the answers. Agreed, with several posters, that part of the issue is just one of multi-generational poverty, abuse, and hopelessness, regardless of the racial backgrounds involved. Poverty, dependence, and the cycle of abuse exist around the world, and all require an acknowledgment by the 'downtrodden people' that their own culture of victimization is part of the problem. That attitude change from, "The Man is against me, I can't win" to "I'm going to make my life different than my parents had; and I'm going to make my children's lives even better" doesn't happen quickly, and probably will not reach all parties. But that's only part of the solution, because the impact of generations denied (or having sharply reduced) the chance to accumulate physical capital, education, and pride in achievement is real and prevalent.
While the targetting of racial groups for benefits may not be ideal, it may turn out to be a necessary step...a way of saying, with actions, This country took away your land, traditions, culture and language; here is a small gesture towards giving you some ability to protect what is left, and perhaps recover some before it is all lost. It's a show of goodwill--but it must be explicitly offered and maintained as compensation for past mistakes, NOT giving a weaker people a hand because they can't make it on their own.
Nobody has done a good job dealing with their historical injustices; but having some kind of mechanism for assessing, recognizing, and if need be offering reparations for past evils seems to me to be a necessary step. It is necessary, but it is not sufficient; and it should not be permanent.
We just elected a dark-skinned man to the highest office in the country, and that's something I view with satisfaction, even pride, in how far we've come since even my childhood. But it's not a 'done deal' yet, by any means, that America has integrated itself culturally or economically. What it does mean is that the stage is set for President Obama to say to the activists and concerned citizens of the black community, "Now you need to do your part, too. The road is open to you, if you do the work, take the risks, and pick yourself up when you fall. Time to stop blaming it all on whitey, and do some looking in the mirror."
It seems, from this distant view of your beautiful land, that you too need to keep trying to find ways that lead to progress-imperfect though they may be--and use them all.
I look forward to watching this thread go on, and I hope that reasoned discussion hold up beneath the barrage of anger and frustration. Important, hard issues are by their nature ones that invoke great passion; but too ugly a wording makes the content of a post all-but unseeable.
Just my thoughts (as usual), Miss Kitt
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Can you expand on this?
gumboot
lorcutus.tolere
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Thanks for your post Miss_Kitt, a good contribution.
I had an experience much like yours where I grew up oblivious to discrimination (I think we all do, in a way), and was surprised when I discovered it. However I think it's perhaps a little defeatist to say "Racism is alive and well". I think the very fact that the bigot is forced to restrict their racism to less overt or public circumstances is good evidence that Racism is alive but sickly. It will never go away, of course, but while we shouldn't be blind or in denial of the racism that still exists, I think we have a right to be proud of how things have improved.
I think it's important in this discussion to make some distinctions about the different issues, because it's a little bit more complex than ethnically targeted initiates for change.
There's some justified ethnically-aimed efforts, and while I might prefer them to be ethnically neutral, I don't have a huge issue with them. So we have commercials on TV about alcoholism and making sure you get a breast exam, and they're often aimed at Maori and Pacific Islanders. A lot of extra funding for initiates is given to those groups. That's fine.
Then on the next level you have issues like beach access that are a whole different level of issue. Giving Maori exclusive control of beaches or the seabed doesn't actually directly address any of the problems with Maori society. It doesn't improve their education or make them healthier.
Meanwhile, it directly challenges some of the core values of New Zealand society. This doesn't get addressed much, but New Zealand is a very egalitarian society, far more, I think, than many foreigners appreciate. Take a simple example from my own experiences.
Many of the great hiking tracks in New Zealand go through privately owned land. In general, landowners are perfectly happy to allow trampers to cross through their land free of charge. Further, landowners are required to maintain the sections of the tracks on their property, at their expense. A few rare landowners charge a small fee or donation for upkeep, but it's pretty rare.
At a farm where we were shooting a commercial once the farmer told us that he had lots of people - foreigners and kiwis - come to his property to climb the impressive cliffs rearing above his land. He allowed them to come and camp on his property without charge or concern. He has even set up a campsite for them with long-drop toilet, a BBQ, and other facilities. He was talking of putting in additional facilities in future. All of this he does from his own pocket, and charges nothing for it.
Likewise, countless beaches in New Zealand are accessed through private property, and land owners across the country allow the general public to enter their land to access those places.
That's the "kiwi way". It's not Maori, it's not Pakeha, it's not British or European or anything else. It's the New Zealand way.
In all my years of hiking, I have traveled across countless private properties. On a few very, very rare occasions I have felt obliged to make donations, or been required to pay a small fee of a couple of dollars.
Then there's a hike my friends and I were looking at doing up north. It involves crossing some local Iwi land. It's a small journey though Maori land before returning to government land. For the privilege of this, the Iwi charge $30 per person. That's double what the Department of Conservation charges to stay in one of their serviced Back Country Huts for a night.
New Zealanders oppose Maori ownership of these places because they simply don't trust that Maori will keep that land open to all. Some do, of course. Most, I would say. But others blatantly rip off their fellow men for the sake of earning some more money.
New Zealanders despise that sort of thing. It goes against our nature, against our values, and that's why this sort of thing is such a heated issue. We value public access to the land very deeply, particularly the water, because we're a very water-borne culture. We love the beach, the sea, rivers.
I can see both sides of this sort of issue, but ultimately I think I generally fall on the side of preserving public access and public ownership in the form of the Crown.
Finally, there's issues like Maori electoral seats. These are not issues of resource control, but issues at the core of how our nation is governed, at the very shape of our democracy. For me, there is absolutely no room for debate on this issue. Separate Maori electoral seats are a violation of the basic principles of free and equal society, a violation of the basic principles of democracy, and they must go.
The Atheist
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Goodo, we live to entertain, and it's a subject I'd be surprised to find many non-Kiwis able to understand.
Well, I've been saying that a lot, so I'll pick it up.
When I say I haven't seen it, you need to put that in the context of having seen an enormous amount of racism, but the racists have all been generic - hating all brown people equally. The subject is racism specifically aimed at Maori, and it just doesn't exist. I've never seen journalists, teachers, or even Maori radicals rail against anti-Maori racism, so it's not just a personal experience thing.
When I was a bank manager, one of my favourite customers was a Maori Trust and it was always fun to watch people's reaction when the trustees arrived to meet me in my office. The three main men were all very large, heavily-tattooed, ex-gang members of fearsome appearance. The fear they inspired wasn't because they were Maori, it was because they looked like your worst nightmare come true. From those blokes to Waari Ward-Holmes - probably the best and best-known Maori businessman in the
Seattle's such a sad place - they don't even hassle openly gay couples there. Disgraceful - no wonder you saw no racism!
I haven't always lived in Maoriville. I've also lived in the two most expensive metropolitan suburbs in the country.
Two things here - I'd like to think we're past that point, having had the equivalent of positive action for several decades at least, plus, the country didn't really take land away, and that part that has long been returned.
She'll be right, we're Kiwis - thick-skinned, peasant people.
Jeez, I could nominate myself for poor editing creating funniest post all round.
The "O" is right next to the bleeding "P" key, isn't it.
Well PUT is what I was after. How one letter changes meaning.
Tsukasa Buddha
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Yes, yes, you hate America, what's new?
Actually, you'll find quite a few conservatives over here saying that the Civil War wasn't fought over slavery, and that African-Americans should be thankful we enslaved their ancestors, because now they get to be in America instead of the jungle.
If I will comment though, despite what I said earlier, I think there is helpful data from America about what I can tell are the problems of the Maori.
In my race-issue research, I've found similar problems of poverty, low education, family issues, and crime being linked to historic and systemic issues. For example, I'm a Chicagoan. Here these are "inner city" problems, which is just the coward's way of saying "black" problem. Many say they should encourage their kids in school more, stay married, work harder, etc. After all, we have legal equality now.
But the history is interesting. Up to the end of the second World War, there was the Black Migration from the South into the urban cities of the North. There, they got the factory jobs that the young men left open. But when those young men came back from war, out went the black workers. Then began suburban growth and the "white flight" out of the city, and the "red lining" of districts where the banking system literally enforced a race-neighborhood policy in mortgage offerings.
Now, those things are fixed. But low socioeconomic status of the parents leads to low education of the children(This is statistically proven, not a correlation fallacy) and so on with more problems. People say they just need to be motivated and get jobs, but demand for jobs determines employment, and geographically they are in low demand areas (It is interesting how we recognize the demand factor for unemployment when we are hit with a recession, but otherwise it is "those people in X are just lazy").
Now, there are basically two views I've come across. One says that all that doesn't matter as long as there are those who overcome, and we do see cases. However, I see that as a silly idea. Perhaps each person entire race will magically purify their souls against all odds, but I doubt it. I believe in nature and nurture, but only one of those is readily changeable. Only one of those is constructed. And only one is not a person by person chance. Systematic change is far better, IMO.
But that's as far as I can get empirically. I'm only know education policy
, so I have no idea about any other policies, and especially no idea about New Zealand policies.ETA: Oh, and the conservative argument is that welfare and liberals brainwash them into a culture of dependency.
It is odd that statistical analysis never encounters this...
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gumboot
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Actually I greatly respect and admire America and I love Americans. I just enjoy poking your buttons sometimes.
I think everything you said was quite pertinent, and very true, and I think it's a common theme you encounter all around the world. New Zealand Maori, also moved into the cities in large numbers (in the 1940s New Zealand was the third most urbanised country in the world). Interestingly, however, what Maori gained there was better income, better education, and an improved standard of living. What they also encountered, however, was discrimination. New Zealand moved away from conservatism and attempts to be "Britain of the Pacific" at the same time that the Maori protest movement gained traction, and that led to addressing racism and Treaty issues.
I think though, that there's a unique factor at play, which is violence in Maori culture. It's a problem because it doesn't gel with modern New Zealand society where violence is unacceptable.
It has always been a core component of all aspects of Maori life - even traditional Maori religion was based on violence, as my uncle pointed out in one of his papers:
It's prevalent in all aspects of their mythology - Maui wants the sun to slow down, so he beats it into submission. When he seeks immortality, it is done through a literal act of raping Hine-nui-te-po; climbing up inside her vagina.
The very creation of the world is itself an act of violence and selfishness; Tane physically rips apart the embrace of his parents Rangi and Papa so that he and his brothers will have room to grow. And this is the least violent suggestion; his brother Tumatauenga proposes that they simply kill them. One of the brothers; Tawhirimatea, is angry at this turn at events, and violently attacked his brothers driving them away, except for Tumatauenga - the origin of mankind. Then, Tumatauenga in turn attacks, hunts, destroys and eats his brothers and their children, in punishment for their cowardice.
Thus the acts of the weather, the acts of gathering resources and food, are fundamentally acts of revenge; acts of "violence with impunity".
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The Atheist
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Woohoo!
Let's see you say that on a New Zealand forum!
You'd be thigh-deep in apologists holding you down for the HRC to come and stomp you.
I must say, this is one of the things which really pisses me off about the debate - you are just not allowed to make that claim here. The Herald has tried several times to get onto that track, and each time, the blowback from the HRC and other political forces have been so fierce the article has been dropped within 48 hours and no longer appears in searches or archives online.
If only we could get admission that it's true - without fault - we could maybe progress.
PhantomWolf
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Why not. Perhaps it's time to start looking in your own backyard here. Instead of supporting the best and brightest and making sure that all of their kids remain in school getting the best education they can, traditions say that the children of the elders must get the best education and everyone else has to stay in their place based on status of birth. Younger Maori can't teach their elders, those of lower status can't teach those of higher status, and everyone in the tribe has to be careful of damaging the Mana of anyone higher than them. This leads to most young Maori dropping out of school early so they don't accidently raise above their station and in doing so insult thier "betters." What an abosultely perfect way to make sure you have a good education basis for your population, by denying it to them in case they do better than someone they shouldn't be. This then leads to many Maori having low incomes or being on benefits. Heck the leader of the Maori party stated that "Maori girls should be getting pregnant and going on the DBP at 16." Great way to increase education and get Maori into higher paying jobs that.
Lower incomes tend to be a factor in poor health and crime. It doesn't help that the major gangs in NZ are all Maori either and so they have a larger number of people involved in criminal activity. Take a look at the crime stats, note which races tend to stand out a lot.
Other factors in shortening life are smoking, poor diet, drinking, and lack of exerice. Care to take a look about the place and see who features high in those stats? Drinking a lot and eating poorly are sure ways to die young, especially in a people who are genetically prediposed towards certain diseases and issues (check out the figures on organ transplants by race.)
Adding to that, even though under-6's have free healthcare in NZ, and anyone on a low income gets subisdised healthcare, and Doctors clinics get extra funding for Maori who are trgistered with them, many Maori families don't use the services given them, they don't have a family doctor and don't go to the same doctor when they do go. This is not a good way of maintaining good health for the population either.
Do we really want to get into how else Maori treat their kids?
You want to see Maori have longer lives, and lower prison population? Make sure that Maori kids stay in school, go to Polytech or University and get the qualifications to get a good job. Keep them out of the gangs, and out of crime. Stop drinking like it's going out of fashion and throw away the cigerettes. It's not that hard, but until Maori stop living in the past and start working hard at moving forward without all the negitive tribal junk that is holding them back, nothing is going to change.
Time to stop blaming Whitie and The Man for your problems and start realising that 90% of those problems start in your own homes and come from your own leaders and parents.
six7s
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You know this how, exactly?
six7s
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Yeah... I have done
My question to you is 'why do you think there is such a disparity?'
PhantomWolf
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From talking to Maori who have experienced it first hand about it, from growing up in a community that had a higher number of Maori than non-Maori, from dicussing it with Teachers who worked hard to get their Maori students into High Schools with scholarships only to see them drop out, or who discovered that their Maori pupils would suddenly go from top of the class to bottom after Parent/Teacher nights, from talking with tutors and trainers at polytech and other educational intuitions that have run into it repeatedly. I have heard the exact same thing from different but enough well connected sources to know it's not just made up.
PhantomWolf
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Well as pointed out above, the main reason is gangs. Low income is a second reason, though I'd have to note that this isn't an excuse. Alcohol and drug abuse is likely an issue as well. Add that to the inherent violence that appears to permeate Maori culture and it seems that Maori are more willing to break the law than others.
six7s
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OK... lets quit faffing about and get to the underlying causes, OK?
- Why are gangs an issue in the first place? (i.e. why do young Maori men get involved in gangs?)
- Why do more Maori (%) than Pakeha (%) smoke cigarettes?
SezMe
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Why? Problems of discrimination - racial and otherwise - beset all societies. Sure there may be unique aspects of the Maori but what society and racial minorities do not have unique dimensions?
PhantomWolf
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Why are gangs an issue? Probably something to do with the fact they are into controlling drugs and prositution and to become a patched member you have to commit crimes. As to why young Maori men want to belong to a gang, the main thoery seems to be that they join them for a sense of belonging for urban Moari that don't have their tribe. Personally I doubt that since gangs are not exactly isolated to just Maori, nor even just minorities (consider the Bikie Gangs in Aust and the US.) I honestly doubt that anyone anywhere in the world has figured out the exact why people form criminal gangs because if they had, then we'd be well on the way to solving the issue.
Again why do more Maori smoke? I suspect they think it makes them look cool and tough, which seems to be something they gravitate towards as a form of Mana. With the lack of cigerette advertising and the plethora of anti-smoking ads specifically targeting Maori, you certainly can't say they are targeted more than anyone else by the companies.
So, why do you think that Maori are so willing to get involved in crime and have so poor practices in looking after their own health despite decades of attempts to change their attitudes?
gumboot
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I'm glad we white women are absolved of blame.