Any Updates on Mark Basile's Study?

[Crazy Chainsaw]

WOW, are you people trying to make this into a big story? Big scandal eh? Get a life. Griscom donated the $1000 to Rick and left it up to him to allocate the money. Rick was going to put it into Mark´s study but then decided to use it to help run his ANETA organization.

BTW, where is the thread about updates on Millette´s study? Oh sorry, that was cancelled. Seems like he does not want to have anything to do with you lot these days, just like JREF.

150 bucks would do an argon ignition test, and prove self oxidation why can truthers not do proper science?

 

[DGM]

WOW, are you people trying to make this into a big story? Big scandal eh? Get a life. Griscom donated the $1000 to Rick and left it up to him to allocate the money. Rick was going to put it into Mark´s study but then decided to use it to help run his ANETA organization.

Thanks for clearing this up. He donated the money back to himself.

I thought (as reported) Griscom donated the money to Mark. It even showed up on Marks tally for a couple days.

Mark doesn't actually have any money for the study, does he?

 

[Crazy Chainsaw]

Thanks for clearing this up. He donated the money back to himself.

I thought (as reported) Griscom donated the money to Mark. It even showed up on Marks tally for a couple days.

Mark doesn't actually have any money for the study, does he?

Truthfers pay for science, that's never been what they do, they publish garbage then,
have others disprove the pesudo BS, then they cry shill and go hide in their moms closet.

 

[WilliamSeger]

150 bucks would do an argon ignition test, and prove self oxidation why can truthers not do proper science?

I find it incomprehensible that people calling themselves scientists would not know that proper scientific testing of an hypothesis must include tests that could potentially disprove that hypothesis. In fact, those would be the most important tests -- at least for anyone making a serious and honest effort. i won't speculate why the Harrit group completely avoided any such tests, because it really doesn't matter. I won't speculate why, in all the years since, they have not rectified that fatal shortcoming in their study by doing such tests, because it really doesn't matter.

Basile's project to attempt to duplicate the Harrit tests is a complete waste of time and money, because a conclusion of thermite simply doesn't follow from Harrit's results, even if taken at face value and even if those results are duplicated.

Millette tested for elemental aluminum and found none, which means no thermitic reaction was possible. How much would it cost Basile to duplicate that test? If none is found, then no further tests are necessary.

Instead of anything remotely resembling a competent and honest effort to determine if the chips are thermitic, we get the perfectly idiotic assertion that only thermite can produce iron-rich microspheres, defended by people like Ziggi who think they can glibly fast-talk their way around what is painfully obvious.

 

[Oystein]

Good luck with that............

I emailed Rick Shaddock on January 29, 2015:

Rick,

I think everybody (with the possible exception of Ziggi Zugam) is very much looking forward to any progress that Mark may be making. I am as disappointed as Chris that James Millette lost interest in publishing a paper, but we still have the data, raw as it may be. Getting results from Mark would be real progress, as I think he so far enjoys the trust of all sides involved. I have said it in the past and I say it again: He appears to be a genuinly honest and down-to-earth man, and I would love to defend him; just need some input.

Perhaps if you could mail him and ask for just a few lines summarizing where he is at right now? Something that can be published to all sides. I understand that you helped a lot with the financing and publishing, he would certainly be more responsive to you than to me.

Kind regards

Rick responded on February 01, saying that he had emailed Mark and asked for a progress report, as the donors rightfully can expect.

No response so far.
I just emailed Rick again, asking if he got a reply from Mark.

 

[Spanx]

WOW, are you people trying to make this into a big story? Big scandal eh? Get a life. Griscom donated the $1000 to Rick and left it up to him to allocate the money. Rick was going to put it into Mark´s study but then decided to use it to help run his ANETA organization.

BTW, where is the thread about updates on Millette´s study? Oh sorry, that was cancelled. Seems like he does not want to have anything to do with you lot these days, just like JREF.

Why would anyone think there is a scandal ? It's not the first time the truth movement raised money and have not produced, I would say it's standard Truther procedure.

Perhaps you could update us? Or shall we just leave it looking like Mark Basile has the money and is doing nothing?

As for a Millette follow up thread, I believe Chris was asking for a follow up and Jim Millette has not done so, but then why would he want to drag his name over conspiracy sites like DTD and 911 conspiracy forums such as this.

 

[Sunstealer]

WOW, are you people trying to make this into a big story? Big scandal eh? Get a life. Griscom donated the $1000 to Rick and left it up to him to allocate the money. Rick was going to put it into Mark´s study but then decided to use it to help run his ANETA organization.

BTW, where is the thread about updates on Millette´s study? Oh sorry, that was cancelled. Seems like he does not want to have anything to do with you lot these days, just like JREF.

You have got some brass neck to accuse others of not following up. Here is a direct quote from the Harrit et al paper:

The Gash report describes FTIR spectra which characterize this energetic material. We have performed these same tests and will report the results elsewhere.

Page 26, 4th paragraph. (my bold)

6 years later and those FTIR results have never been published.

FTIR is one of the most important procedures possible in this case to positively identify the material. FTIR will tell you what the carbon matrix is and will tell you whether kaolin is present (epoxy and yes present -see Millett). It is infinitely more important than DSC, ignition tests, MEK soaking, resistance testing which all made it into the paper.

There is a reason why FTIR data was never included and has never been published. It will categorically show that the red material is paint without any doubt.

So why don't you get on the case and push for that FTIR data to be published in full or are you happy with your double-standards?

 

[Animal]

Truthfers pay for science, that's never been what they do, they publish garbage then,
have others disprove the pesudo BS, then they cry shill and go hide in their moms closet.

You forgot the part where dicky gage goes his all expense paid vacation.

 

[chrismohr]

You have got some brass neck to accuse others of not following up. Here is a direct quote from the Harrit et al paper:

Page 26, 4th paragraph. (my bold)

6 years later and those FTIR results have never been published.

FTIR is one of the most important procedures possible in this case to positively identify the material. FTIR will tell you what the carbon matrix is and will tell you whether kaolin is present (epoxy and yes present -see Millett). It is infinitely more important than DSC, ignition tests, MEK soaking, resistance testing which all made it into the paper.

There is a reason why FTIR data was never included and has never been published. It will categorically show that the red material is paint without any doubt.

So why don't you get on the case and push for that FTIR data to be published in full or are you happy with your double-standards?

Welcome back Sunstealer! For the 2009 thermitic paper, Kevin Ryan did FTIR work on the chips and Jeffrey Farrer did a TEM analysis. Neither results appeared in the final paper, though some of the TEM data has been released (and I think maybe even some FTIR data, does anyone have more info on either?). I'm trying to remember if there has ever been a public explanation as to why these results have not been released. I recall MM at one point saying it is not necessary to release all data for a published paper (word count restrictions and all that). And of course, Steven Jones is on to other projects. Sunstealer, can you give your opinion on the potential value of the unpublished TEM data?

 

[chrismohr]

As for delays on Millete vs Basile vs Jones/Harrit et al, I'm frustrated that EVERYTHING takes so long... on both sides! I have a videotape all recorded and ready to produce about all this, and I haven't had time to teach myself a video editing program. Again, if anyone wants to volunteer to help with editing this, I'm guessing it would take ten hours or so. I have everything ready to go.

 

[Oystein]

...Kevin Ryan did FTIR work on the chips and Jeffrey Farrer did a TEM analysis. Neither results appeared in the final paper, though some of the TEM data has been released (and I think maybe even some FTIR data, does anyone have more info on either?).

"some of the TEM data has been released" - really? I don't recall having seen any data. I only remember having read a comment or two by Steven Jones with some qualitative statements (I think he mentioned the presence of strontium and chromium in some chips, as well as lead). If you know where any TEM-data by Farrer can be found, link please!

I am not aware that any of Ryan's FTIR data has been release with the exception of one chart next to an FTIR-chart from some other, Fluorine-bearing material (Viton A): https://ultruth.files.wordpress.com/2013/12/ftir911.jpg
This is shown in this post on his blog, with no real explanation:

Millette rested his case on FTIR, which I have also performed on chips from WTC dust but with a much different result. Like Millette’s paper, my FTIR work is not yet part of a peer-reviewed publication and therefore should not be taken as authoritative evidence.

The specimen he tested is described as "a 2 mm multi-colored, interconnected network. It has dark bands and a light white coating". I think I have seen that specimen elsewhere, but it doesn't seem one of the typical red-gray chips from Harrit et al 2009.

I'm trying to remember if there has ever been a public explanation as to why these results have not been released.

Kevin Ryan continues the quote above:

There has been less urgency to this supplemental work because what has been done to date has received no legitimate response from the government or from much of the scientific community. That sad fact should be the central point of discussion today.

That's a strange way of thinking - I would have thought that if there has been no reaction from the intended audience, perhaps more and better data should be delivered to get one.

I recall MM at one point saying it is not necessary to release all data for a published paper (word count restrictions and all that).

I have seen the 12-page peer-review by David Griscom - 3 years ago almost. I have not seen the draft by Harrit et al that Griscom reviewed, so some of his comments are difficult to understand (for example, when he makes comments on images that didn't make into the final paper), but it seems clear from the review, as well as from comments later made by the authors, that many figures and also some swaths of text were excised. I do not recall any comments on FTIR work that later would have fallen victim to the cuts, but I can't be 100% sure that there weren't any - with memory being a bitch and all. So IF the FTIR data was left out for the sake of brevity, that decision was made by the authors and wasn't a result of the peer-review.

 

[Ziggi]

Welcome back Sunstealer! For the 2009 thermitic paper, Kevin Ryan did FTIR work on the chips and Jeffrey Farrer did a TEM analysis. Neither results appeared in the final paper, though some of the TEM data has been released (and I think maybe even some FTIR data, does anyone have more info on either?). I'm trying to remember if there has ever been a public explanation as to why these results have not been released. I recall MM at one point saying it is not necessary to release all data for a published paper (word count restrictions and all that). And of course, Steven Jones is on to other projects. Sunstealer, can you give your opinion on the potential value of the unpublished TEM data?

Kevin Ryan has FTIR data that is just "as published" as Millette´s FTIR data, and he was showing some of it in public as far back as 2009. There was a lot of ranting on this forum about Harrit et al "hiding" this data back then, when Ryan was touring the country showing it at lectures. Very funny and very typical for the forum. Seems like Sunstealer still can´t find it.

Originally Posted by Kevin Ryan
Millette rested his case on FTIR, which I have also performed on chips from WTC dust but with a much different result. Like Millette’s paper, my FTIR work is not yet part of a peer-reviewed publication and therefore should not be taken as authoritative evidence.

Do you really think Dr. Millette was as ignorant as those who rant on this forum, and was unaware of the Harrit et al FTIR data, when it was mentioned in the paper and Ryan was talking about it in lectures? Hmm? Why do you think Ryan´s FTIR does not match Millette´s? Not the same chips, eh? Why do you think Millette decided to not publish the first part of his study, the supposedly definitive FTIR data according to Sunstealer and his ilk? Maybe because he realized "the much different result"? Hmm?

It is one thing to rant on the forum and another to publish scientific papers formally under your real name, and at some point you will have to realize that.

 

[DGM]

Kevin Ryan has FTIR data that is just "as published" as Millette´s FTIR data, and he was showing some of it in public as far back as 2009. There was a lot of ranting on this forum about Harrit et al "hiding" this data back then, when Ryan was touring the country showing it at lectures. Very funny and very typical for the forum. Seems like Sunstealer still can´t find it.

Where was this FTIR data presented? Millette made his data available, where is Ryans?

 

[Spanx]

Oops, I think Ziggi has forgotten he has an audiance who can reply.

 

[Oystein]

Rick responded on February 01, saying that he had emailed Mark and asked for a progress report, as the donors rightfully can expect.

No response so far.
I just emailed Rick again, asking if he got a reply from Mark.

Rick answered. No reply from Mark. Rick will follow up with a phone call if another email remains unanswered.
Rick says the $1000 awarded to Griscom last year are still dedicated to the Basile study.

 

[Oystein]

Kevin Ryan has FTIR data that is just "as published" as Millette´s FTIR data...

Where can we access this data? Please cite the publication properly!

 

[DGM]

Rick answered. No reply from Mark. Rick will follow up with a phone call if another email remains unanswered.
Rick says the $1000 awarded to Griscom last year are still dedicated to the Basile study.

Thanks for the update. Odd Mark is not responding to requests from his sponsor.

 

[pgimeno]

Welcome back Sunstealer! For the 2009 thermitic paper, Kevin Ryan did FTIR work on the chips and Jeffrey Farrer did a TEM analysis. Neither results appeared in the final paper, though some of the TEM data has been released (and I think maybe even some FTIR data, does anyone have more info on either?).

Ivan had some images and commented on them here:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9451375#post9451375
and here:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9455960#post9455960

I reposted the images with his permission, for everyone to have access, here:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9458443#post9458443

 

[chrismohr]

Oystein, I may be mistaken in my memory. Pgimeno showed us what Ivan was able to pull off a screen shot, which may be all there is. There have been comments by Jones, Ryan and Harrit, but perhaps that's all I've actually seen.

Sunstealer, if you're still around, can you tell me what the TEM data might show us if it were released by the Harrit/Jones/Ryan/Farrer team? Alternatively, Oystein perhaps you can help... ideally something quoting someone like Sunstealer or at least your understanding of what light TEM data can shed on this.

I am reading Ziggi's taunts and insults but have no response at this time. His assumptions about Millette are a good example of how people on both sides of this debate can go ad hominem and assume the worst of people without knowing what they are talking about. This is why I also gave up on MM.

 

[grandmastershek]

It is one thing to rant on the forum and another to publish scientific papers formally under your real name, and at some point you will have to realize that.

Also, it's one thing to legitimately publish research, and it's another to conduct a "study" with people who already have the conclusion they want, have it peer reviewed by at least 1 person who already agrees with your conclusion (Not to mention collaborated with them while that person was supposed to be an anonymous unbiased reviewer), and get published in a fake journal.