Any non-deranged survivalists out there?

[TheDaver]

I've been through so many hurricane's I can't count them all. Everything from weak category 1's to category 4's (evacuated on that one). It doesn't require a survivalist attitude at all, and stockpiling weeks of supplies is absurd.



Actually its incredibly easy. Stores gear up quickly after hurricanes to get back into business to make money off the situation. Red cross stations are every where. I've never waited more than 30 minutes in any line after a hurricane. And there has never been a scenario where there were 0 gas pumps available since. Since you have days, sometimes even a week, of foreknowledge that a hurricane is in your area you have plenty of time to get a full tank of gas even though the hysteria fueled by the media pre-hurricane always causes a gas panic. There is nothing you need to be doing in the week or so post-hurricane before everything goes back to normal that would result in you blowing an entire tank of gas unless you just want to go out and "experience" the town.



As someone who lives in hurricane country, your description of post hurricane events is extremely exaggerated - probably in order to rationalize survivalist preparations. All you need is an ATM card to evacuate, and otherwise a few candles, canned food, and if you really want to blow yourself out a generator. Hurricane bunker not required. Again - I know and realize some people are sick and get off on things like hurricanes and that would make them deranged.

If survivalists are people who spend time and resources to prepare to live through events that are extremely unlikely to ever occur, then they are by definition not rational because they are choosing to spend money on something which in every conceivable case has a negative expected return. If someone enjoys hunting and building a nuclear bunker knowing that they are never going to need it for a Vision of the Apocalypse since such things are not likely to ever happen, you could call these things hobbies.

I didn’t say any of those things.

 

[quarky]

You do realize our non-human ancestors made knives from rocks because even to a small brained naked ape, a sharp thing seems like a good thing to have around.?

Yes, I do realize that. I'm not as stupid as my avatar suggests.
Still, I've managed weeks in the wild without needing anything sharp.
I'd take a plastic sheet over a knife, if I couldn't have both.

btw, zaphod2016:
Most of florida gets 4' or more rain per year. That translates to aprox. 32 gallons per horizontal sq.ft. of roof. getting off the water 'grid' should be pretty easy. As per drinking quality, you only need a gallon or so/ day....not hard to do with low-tek filtration.

 

[Egil]

My grandparents place sits on 10 acres of land, it has a well and a creek flowing through their property. The house is about 150 yards down a driveway from the road. Plenty of fresh-water.

They know how to survive without electricity, grandmother lived in that situation until she was around 16.

We got 5 rifles, a shotgun and two handguns. More weapons than able bodied people and about 1500 rounds and this isn't counting the weapons by grandparents and uncle have. Then Granddad used to bow hunt back in the day and still has the longbow and arrows.

Then there is my Grand-Aunt's place: They got 20 acres, a well, farmland, and their own powersource (Solar Cell and natural gas under their feet).

I think all told between me, my dad, grandparents, uncle and grand-aunt's family we have 50 rifles, 10+handguns and 15 shotguns.

Turn the Zombies loose already!

 

[zaphod2016]

A) Dude, I didn't know you were a fellow Floridian.

Since 2006. I live up near Melbourne. Best decision I ever made, except for the whole "total collapse of the real estate market thing".

B) Solar's not terribly wise money-wise in Florida. FPL doesn't allow for net metering, even though you'd be generating excess power on hot sunny days when they need it most. Batteries to store power are likely the biggest cost you're looking at there.

True. I am hoping in the next 5-10 years FPL will setup a load-balancing capacity like the utilities in the UK or California, and start buying back the excess juice, which makes for much better ROI, and is far more efficient that chemical battery storage (and better environmentally).

C) What part of Florida are you in? You could dig a well into the Biscayne aquifer depending on your location. It'd wouldn't be artesian, so you'll need a pump.

I live beachside, right between the Atlantic and Banana River, and hit water at about 4 feet down. We have an artesian well that goes down ~50 ft for the sprinkler system. The problem is- our water is extremely brackish, which makes for lousy cooking/drinking (this is why I use city water on all fruit/veggie plants).

Based on averages, assuming a 40,000 gal storage capacity (which would be a tad excessive), we should get enough rainfall from May through Jan/Feb to be completely "off the grid". From what I've read, its much easier to clean-up rainwater, because the brackish well water requires what is essentially a desalinization plant.

Like I said, the solar/water projects are long-term. I am currently 28. I think by the time I am 48 it will be a whole new world as far as alternative energy goes. Of course, if Al Gore is right, my house will be under water by then.

 

[zaphod2016]

btw, zaphod2016:
Most of florida gets 4' or more rain per year. That translates to aprox. 32 gallons per horizontal sq.ft. of roof. getting off the water 'grid' should be pretty easy. As per drinking quality, you only need a gallon or so/ day....not hard to do with low-tek filtration.

I used this website to compile monthly average rainfall in my area, and then compared this to my usage based on my last 2 years of water bills. My household uses about 5-6k gals per month (my wife loves baths and we have a pool).

What I'd like to do is pipe some underwater tanks into the garage, where I can filter the heavy debris with carbon and use chlorine, ozone or UV light to kill the microscopic stuff.

When rainwater is available, which should be most of the summer, fall and winter (ironically, April is our dryest month) our toilets, sinks, showers- everything should be able to run on recycled rainwater. It would pass to the water heater, and then through the house, using the same lines as the city water. When no rain is available, or if the filter fails for some reason, the system would switch back to city water. In theory, you could be mid-shower during the switch and never notice a thing.

The more economical move is to purify the drinking water ONLY, and use "grey water" to fill the toilets, etc. A few problems: a) untreated water will corrode the plumbing and age it significantly b) untreated water stinks (smells funky). Even if I ran a second set of plumbing (very expensive), the toilets would still emit a nasty funk, even after flushing. There is also a safety issue- all sorts of nasty critters and microorganisms thrive in our hot, humid climate. Without purifying the water properly, you can get VERY sick (see also: Mexico City).

Our friends in Asia, specifically India and the South Pacific, are light years ahead of us on this issue. Having seen how they do it, I am confident such a system is within the realm of possibility. The issue is cost- it is not a smart move based on ROI yet, but this will change as a) materials get cheaper and/or b) water gets more expensive. It may be naive, but I truly believe it is possible to live green, and maintain a wonderful standard of living, and my house is basically a lifelong experiment to that effect. So far, so good, but like I say, I haven't gotten to the water/solar systems yet.

I would also love to put a windmill in my front yard (we get breeze from the Atlantic 24/7) but they are currently illegal in our residential zones. I could also slash my electric use by replacing my house lights with a 12v DC line using LEDs, which is my plan B is the 110v 15amp solar roof proves unfeasible.

Long story short: I dream of a day when I can float in the pool, sipping a cold drink, listening to my radio, without feeling guilty that I am slowly destroying the planet and dooming us all to extinction.

 

[LightinDarkness]

Both are unlikely. Being prepared for both, by your logic, is silly. Why does it matter how unlikely they are? They’re unlikely, therefore, according to you, preparation is not just unnecessary, but unwise.

I refuse to believe anyone is this ignorant. If you can't tell the difference between a statistically unlikely event (a car accident) and a a extraordinarily unlikely event (the Apocalypse), then you are beyond all help. Of course, what you fail to mention - and this is why you don't have any argument and and your just blowing smoke - is that state governments only require liability insurance. A car accident isn't something that impacts only you, you are buying a policy to insure everyone else against accidents that you can very easily cause. You only have to have collision, which is generally a dumb idea, unless you suck at driving and are likely to hit someone. Unlike the insane scenarios you prepare for, you can bring about a car accident extremely easily on purpose or by being careless. It happens all the time. You can't bring about the Apocalypse, no matter how bad you want it.

Right, so all those thousands of bowhunters in the USA are completely ineffective. All the game they’ve ever tagged is just a complete figment of my imagination.…

As with most things you believe, their effectiveness is a figment of your imagination.

You’re projecting.


You’re just plain full of it.

Looks like your the one projecting.

 

[LightinDarkness]

I didn’t say any of those things.

Hilarius. Actually you did, which is why I quote people just so people can't try that one to wiggle out of it.

 

[Egil]

As with most things you believe, their effectiveness is a figment of your imagination.

Bows and Crossbows are quiet effective for Deer and Turkey (A special arrowhead will cut a Turkey's head off). Everyone I know who hunts Deer also bowhunts them and the number of lost arrows in running deer is small compared to successful kills. Quiet accurate at 20 yards.



I live in Oak Ridge, I got three reasons off the top of my head that may require me to bug-out: Y-12, X-10 and K-25/27.

 

[TheDaver]

Hilarius. Actually you did, which is why I quote people just so people can't try that one to wiggle out of it.

No, I didn’t. You were quoting Rogue1stclass and inserted the quote tag for my post from the second quote on [eta: thereby attributing his quotes to me].

I refuse to believe anyone is this ignorant. If you can't tell the difference between a statistically unlikely event (a car accident) and a a extraordinarily unlikely event (the Apocalypse), then you are beyond all help.

That’s right, keep attacking the person rather than the point.

As with most things you believe, their effectiveness is a figment of your imagination.

Wow, you are just absolutely incredible.

Do you have anything to qualify that statement by?

I guess these guys are all just hoaxers and poachers, right?



(Source: Traditional Bowhunter magazine, Feb/Mar 2009.)

 

[Toke]

Hilarius. Actually you did, which is why I quote people just so people can't try that one to wiggle out of it.

Look like your quoting skill is a bit lacking.

 

[Chaos]

Correct me if I´m wrong, but didn´t people used to hunt with bows for millenia? Unless, of course, all of human history before the invention of the arquebuse is a figment of my imagination...

 

[Egil]

Aim for the heart-lung box, or if in a tree stand go for the spine. Deer runs maybe 150 yards before collapsing from bloodloss or collapses on the spot.

Modern compound bows will shoot modern arrows through a deer.

 

[TheDaver]

Modern compound bows will shoot modern arrows through a deer.

Even composites. Even primitives, with enough draw weight.

 

[Egil]

Even composites. Even primitives, with enough draw weight.

True. You can by a sling shot and kil rabbit or squirrel. If you go with an old fashioned sling you can take deer.

Then there is dropping on top of boar from a tree with a spear...

 

[TheDaver]

Well yeah, but I meant (and thought you did too) through-and-throughs – as in, the arrow passes entirely through the chest cavity and embeds itself into the ground or a tree on the other side of the animal – not just mortal wounds.

 

[Egil]

Well yeah, but I meant (and thought you did too) through-and-throughs – as in, the arrow passes entirely through the chest cavity and embeds itself into the ground or a tree on the other side of the animal – not just mortal wounds.

Through and throughs.

 

[Rogue1stclass]

I've been through so many hurricane's I can't count them all. Everything from weak category 1's to category 4's (evacuated on that one). It doesn't require a survivalist attitude at all, and stockpiling weeks of supplies is absurd.

Absurd like a fox!

Seriously, after Ivan, we had the recommended supply of food of water, enough for 4 people for 3 days. Then, on the second day after the storm, my sister and her family showed up, having lost their house. So now we had 8 people. Our water didn't come back on for another 9 days.

Actually its incredibly easy. Stores gear up quickly after hurricanes to get back into business to make money off the situation. Red cross stations are every where. I've never waited more than 30 minutes in any line after a hurricane. And there has never been a scenario where there were 0 gas pumps available since. Since you have days, sometimes even a week, of foreknowledge that a hurricane is in your area you have plenty of time to get a full tank of gas even though the hysteria fueled by the media pre-hurricane always causes a gas panic. There is nothing you need to be doing in the week or so post-hurricane before everything goes back to normal that would result in you blowing an entire tank of gas unless you just want to go out and "experience" the town.

I have personally waited in line for 2 hours to get ice and water after Ivan, idling in the middle of 9th Avenue. The aid stations were less everywhere and more in a handful locations in Greater Pensacola, serving a half million people.

As for gas, if you could find an open pump, it usually didn't stay open for long. You could very easily wait in line for an hour just to have the guy in front of you empty the last of the store's gas into a 55 gallon drum. It happened enough that my Brother in law, who's job it was to fuel up the vehicles, came back after a full day of hunting empty handed as often as not.

And not every job stops because there is a storm. I worked at the power plant, and my girlfriend worked at a hospital. We didn't really have the luxury of playing the post storm supply search.

As someone who lives in hurricane country, your description of post hurricane events is extremely exaggerated - probably in order to rationalize survivalist preparations. All you need is an ATM card to evacuate, and otherwise a few candles, canned food, and if you really want to blow yourself out a generator. Hurricane bunker not required. Again - I know and realize some people are sick and get off on things like hurricanes and that would make them deranged.

No. I did not have a survivalist mindset before Ivan. I'd been through dozens of storms, some pretty bad, before that, but I never thought much of them. Ivan changed all of that. My description is based on my personal experience with that storm. That is, a direct hit from a Cat 4 storm, even on a city that his quite a lot of experience dealing with hurricanes in general. Maybe it is a worst case scenario, but it did happen. And then, the very next year, it happened again.

If survivalists are people who spend time and resources to prepare to live through events that are extremely unlikely to ever occur, then they are by definition not rational because they are choosing to spend money on something which in every conceivable case has a negative expected return. If someone enjoys hunting and building a nuclear bunker knowing that they are never going to need it for a Vision of the Apocalypse since such things are not likely to ever happen, you could call these things hobbies.

See, here's the way I see it. In 2004, we took the hit for New Orleans. Ivan was projected to smack the Big Easy, then jogged East and hit us instead. We showed what a hit from a Cat 4 storm could do, again, on a place that wasn't particularly densely populated and was ready for such an event.

However, according to you, since this event is extremely unlikelyNawlins, even getting the object lesson of Pensacola, was still perfectly reasonable to take absolutely no precautions against a storm at all other than a few cans of beans and some candles. How did that work out for them? Do we say that hundreds, perhaps thousands, of people died because they were unprepared, but at least they were reasonable and not deranged?

The fact of the matter is, having two weeks of stored food, water, and batteries works just as well if the basic services are out for two days as they do if the power is out for two weeks. If nothing else, it lets you share or not have to buy as much next time. It's neither absurd, deranged or even unreasonable.

 

[zaphod2016]

The fact of the matter is, having two weeks of stored food, water, and batteries works just as well if the basic services are out for two days as they do if the power is out for two weeks. If nothing else, it lets you share or not have to buy as much next time. It's neither absurd, deranged or even unreasonable.

My grandfather, a WWII vet raised in the Great Depression, taught me that storing 2-weeks of essentials was not only smart, it was the responsibility of any quality father.

And he was hardly an anti-government whackjob- he worked as a prosecutor for the City for nearly 10 years, before entering private practice.

Building a bomb shelter, or stockpiling weapons, is pretty silly for most areas. But food, water and energy? I use those every hour of every day. I also live in "Hurricane Alley". The alternative to a modest stock of emergency supplies is an all-out brawl fest at the local Publix with my granny neighbors. Hardly a better solution.

Like Rogue1stclass said: I would rather be in a position to share with my elderly neighbor, rather than forced to pull the last case of bottled water from her withered hands as the storm approaches.