Any Conspiracy-Busters here?

[kookbreaker]

Yes. Simply because someone proclaims themselves to be an expert doesn't mean I can ignore my own calculations and the evidence before me. I prefer to use science as a basis for understanding, not authority.

So far, you have demonstrated that your own calculations are useless, with such misapplied terms as 'free-fall'. Care to show your work?

BTW, these 'experts' are not self-proclaimed. They are engineers. If you are skeptical of them then you are skeptical of structures. Kinda hard to do that.

Are you taking the p***?

No, merely demonstrating that structures work and fail according to established principles, not they way you want them to.

 

[love]

First off... I fail to see what conclusions your "missing concrete" and "free fall" theories are trying to draw. Were the towers made from paper mache back in the 70's and the crooked illuminati cabal who built them orchestrated the 9/11 attacks to cover-up their shoddy construction scam?

Anyhoo... an exercise in futility though it may be, I'll bite.

-The "missing concrete"...

You suggest that there is only "10 meters of rubble". Measured from where? From street level up? Well, guess what? The towers weren't built from street level. They were built over a... what? Here's a hint, and a suggestion for you regarding your continuing attempt to support silly conspiracy theories:



"When in a hole, stop digging."

So... how far below street level did the basement of the WTC complex extend? Follow the link to see the pretty picture:

http://michaelminn.net/newyork/wtc/2004-07-17_18-11-50.jpg

Yeah, I only see 3 stories of hole there. My calculations were for 11 stories of solid concrete alone. That should stick out of the hole by a lot more than 8 stories when you include air gaps and other material.

-The "free falling building"...

No, the pancaking theory does not suggest that the building collapsed one floor at a time... as in the collapse did not start on the top floor and continue in sequence to the bottom.

The collapse started at around the three quarters point up the building. Which means that there was a MASSIVE weight above the initially collapsing section. A weight so massive that the subsequent floors below the collapsing section offered scant resistence to such an irresistably massive force.

That MASSIVE weight was held up by an equally MASSIVE force. What happened to that force? Most of the inertia of the building was in the bottom half of the building.

I am still skeptical.

Again... this process is clearly seen in the recorded video footage of the events.

When I saw the towers fall, it looked to me like all the floors fell together.

 

[Glite]

I didn't see that much debris in total!

In the photos posted on this thread it doesn't look to be more than 10 meters of rubble. Now there were some

The concrete appears to be missing.

i would say if you watch footage from the towers falling, you can see that alot of the concrete used in the towers was being dis-integrated as the towers fell, the floors collapsed on one another causing the outer walls to crumble out and be thrown away from the building causing a lotus flower look to it like this.


if you examine pictures like this you'll see that the "kicked out debris" is very much destroyed, this debris is not in a pile because it was the cloud of dust that spread over southern Manhattan. and thats where your missing concrete ended up, spread out, covering everything in an area around the wtc

 

[kookbreaker]

I think the concrete was mixed with explosives when the towers were built.

Wow. Just wow.

Stupidest.Theory.EVER!

OK, so what explosive was used? Why did it manage to last 30 years? Why wasn't it ignited accidentally during contruction? Why did they bother to do this in the first place? Why do you think the construction workers didn;t notice that something was 'funny' with the concrete (Concrete does not take impurities without showing some effects).

And finally: Why is it that you are so stupid as to think this was even remotely plausable?

 

[Year Zero]

Wow. Just wow.

Stupidest.Theory.EVER!

OK, so what explosive was used? Why did it manage to last 30 years? Why wasn't it ignited accidentally during contruction? Why did they bother to do this in the first place? Why do you think the construction workers didn;t notice that something was 'funny' with the concrete (Concrete does not take impurities without showing some effects).

And finally: Why is it that you are so stupid as to think this was even remotely plausable?

This brings us to the central problem with the CTs in this issue. Why, oh WHY, do they REFUSE to find a competent, certified, experienced demolitions expert, and construct a working theory on how their scenario would work? They say that the pancake theory can't account for the concrete? Fine, show us how that demolition WOULD account for that. They claim(erroneously) that the towers fell in free fall and that the pancake theory(which they seldom show understanding of) can't account for this. Then demonstrate, via a demolitions expert, how a demolition would put the tower into free fall.

And last but not least, explain how a controlled demolition could be designed when you plan to crash a large plane into the building that is to be demolished. Anyone with even a remote knowledge of this kind of demolitions understands that there is no exact science to bringing a building down. It takes a long time and you have to rely on ESTIMATES. That being the case, your estimates are literally blown to hell when you suddenly fly a plane into the building.

 

[love]

So far, you have demonstrated that your own calculations are useless, with such misapplied terms as 'free-fall'. Care to show your work?

Sigh.

Height of the building, s=412 m

Acceleration due to gravity g=9.81 m/s/s.

Time for top of building to fall under gravity alone (without resistance), t.

s= 1/2*g*g*t

t=2*s/g/g=2*412/9.81/9.81=8.6 seconds

Careful analysis of the video footage clearly shows this.

BTW, these 'experts' are not self-proclaimed. They are engineers.

True. I still trust my own math and the video footage.

If you are skeptical of them then you are skeptical of structures. Kinda hard to do that.

Your logic escapes me.

No, merely demonstrating that structures work and fail according to established principles, not they way you want them to.

There is some irony here, because even in the explanations of how the towers fell, many experts admitted the collapse broke established engineering principles.

 

[Glite]

also, could the ct please answer a question for me, WHY?!

and if you have the why, that should answer the question of who?

because, I'm sure theres gotta be one of "them" who would talk if we got too close to their nefarious plan. which seems pretty damn complicated.

 

[Year Zero]

You're lying to us love. Had you read that report I offered you it has been shown that there are varying calculations of the time it took to collapse, calculated by the same footage, by people who have proven qualifications in their field. That report addresses your questions.

You seem to want to question all the "official" facts, yet not answer any of our questions about your hypothesis.

 

[Psiload]

Yeah, I only see 3 stories of hole there. My calculations were for 11 stories of solid concrete alone. That should stick out of the hole by a lot more than 8 stories when you include air gaps and other material.

Three stories? Let's count them, shall we?

http://michaelminn.net/newyork/wtc/2004-07-17_18-11-50.jpg

I'm clearly counting six stories, which makes you wrong by a factor of 100%. That doesn't bode well for the rest of your "calculations".

That MASSIVE weight was held up by an equally MASSIVE force. What happened to that force? Most of the inertia of the building was in the bottom half of the building.

I am still skeptical.

When I saw the towers fall, it looked to me like all the floors fell together.

When you throw around terms like "inertia", it's like watching a toddler waving a loaded pistol. Put that down, you're going to hurt somebody.

 

[kookbreaker]

Sigh.

Height of the building, s=412 m

Acceleration due to gravity g=9.81 m/s/s.

Time for top of building to fall under gravity alone (without resistance), t.

s= 1/2*g*g*t

t=2*s/g/g=2*412/9.81/9.81=8.6 seconds

Careful analysis of the video footage clearly shows this.

No, it does not.

http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/analysis/collapses/freefall.html

It is widely accepted that both towers completely fell (nearly everything but the dust reached the ground) in around ten seconds. This estimate appears to be based mainly on seismic data. However, video evidence of the North Tower collapse suggests that it took close to 15 seconds for the destruction to reach the ground. Establishing a precise time of duration for each fall may not be possible, but there are measurements that can be made. Video records show that each tower's top began its fall precipitously, and show the falling tops for a few seconds before they disappeared into the exploding dust clouds.

Keep in mind many folks take measurements formt he video based on when they stop seeing the building...not when it actually hits the ground

True. I still trust my own math and the video footage.

Garbage in, garbage out.

Your logic escapes me.

You claimed to be skeptical of what you called 'self-styled experts', those were structural engineers. Guess what they make.

There is some irony here, because even in the explanations of how the towers fell, many experts admitted the collapse broke established engineering principles.

I'd like to hear these quotes in proper context. There were no established engineering principles for a building of this type to collapse, because it never happened before.

 

[Year Zero]

An excerpt from that report I linked:

"Direct observation tells us that the WTC collapsed in a time 2 – 3 seconds greater than the 9.1 second free fall time of an object dropped from a height of 416 meters onto a base about 10 meters high. We now present a simple momentum transfer theory that may be used to calculate values of tc for each of the WTC towers."

Excellent point Kookbreaker, if one cannot trust the expertise of a structural engineer any more than some guy on the internet, I would NEVER walk into any large building EVER.

 

[delphi_ote]

No, just ad hoc theories.

Umm... a building collapsed. Where do YOU think all of the concrete went?

 

[love]

Wow. Just wow.

Stupidest.Theory.EVER!

Why thank you.

OK, so what explosive was used?

I don't know.

Why did it manage to last 30 years?

Because it was stable?

Why wasn't it ignited accidentally during contruction?

Because it is stable?

Why did they bother to do this in the first place?

Long-term planning.

Why do you think the construction workers didn;t notice that something was 'funny' with the concrete (Concrete does not take impurities without showing some effects).

Really? Perhaps they did notice.

And finally: Why is it that you are so stupid as to think this was even remotely plausable?

Because of the WTC cough. It seems to me that the symptoms of WTC cough match the symptoms of calcium hydroxide poisoning. The WTC cough symptoms seemed to include caustic burning, chemical irritation. This cannot be explained by mechanically made dust alone.

This can be produced by heating the concrete to 900C. I'm not sure how you would do this except with high explosives. If the explosive was mixed with the concrete it would explain how all the concrete turned to dust.

I really don't want to have to calculate how much jet fuel it would take to heat 500,000 tons of concrete to 900C, but I assure you, there wasn't enough in the planes.

I am yet to see any plausible explanation of all the dust that doesn't involve high explosives.

 

[hellaeon]

Its all a conspiracy!

SEE!!!! THE NUMBERS DONT LIE.


---------------------------------------------

The Jewish holidays of Rosh Hashana (The Jewish New Year - 5762) and Yom Kippur = September 27, 2001 (September 18-27 - 18=9 & 27=9)

Reality is created and guided by numeric patterns that overlap and awaken human consciousness - like a giany matrix or hologram. They are created by Sacred Geometry - numbers - the language of the universe - codes of awakening - such as 11:11 which represents twins strands of DNA abd return to balance - 11=balance.

9 11 = awakening of DNA to the 9 = ending.

Twin Towers, standing side by side, look like the number 11

The tragedy was on September 11, or 9/11. Adding this: 9+1+1=11

September 11 is day number 254 of the calendar year: 2+5+4=11

After September 11, there were 111 days more to the end of the year.

911 = emergency phone call

119 is the area code to Iraq

New York City has 11 letters.

New York was the 11 state to join the union

Ramsin Yuseb (The terrorist who threatened the Twin Towers in 1993) has 11 letters.

'George W. Bush' has 11 letters

Osama Bin Laden's name add up to 11.

The Pentagon consists of 11 letters

The first plane crushing against the Twin Towers was flight #11

Flight # 11 was carrying 92 passengers Adding this number gives us: 9+2=11

Flight # 77 who also hit the towers, was carrying 65 passengers Adding this: 6+5=11

The total number of victims inside the planes were 254: 2+5+4=11

The tragedy of 3/11/2004 in Madrid also adds up to: 3+1+1+2+4=11. It occurred 911 days after 911

-------------------------

today is the 23rd of the 12th! 23-12=11...and we are talking about it!

 

[Year Zero]

Long-term planning.

Long term planning? The World Trade Center was finished in 1972, construction began in 1966, during the VIETNAM WAR. We were in the Vietnam war because of a belief that the Chinese would dominate the region. We were involved in dozens of insurgency and counter-insurgency conflicts up until the collapse of the Soviet Union. You believe that somehow, in all of this, somebody predicted almost exactly that the Soviet Union would collapse, Marxist insurgencies would almost totally decline, Islamic terrorism would adopt a transnational strategy about six years after that, and then, for some reason, we would blow up our own people for....

For.....for what exactly? And don't get me started on the INCREDIBLE chain-of-command problems this conspiracy has. This actually suggests that you would have to arrange some way to pass the conspiracy on to another generation of conspirators.

Really? Perhaps they did notice.

I have worked in the concrete/materials testing industry for several years- they would notice.

Because of the WTC cough. It seems to me that the symptoms of WTC cough match the symptoms of calcium hydroxide poisoning. The WTC cough symptoms seemed to include caustic burning, chemical irritation. This cannot be explained by mechanically made dust alone.

According to who?

This can be produced by heating the concrete to 900C. I'm not sure how you would do this except with high explosives. If the explosive was mixed with the concrete it would explain how all the concrete turned to dust.

All the concrete WASN'T turned into dust. You assumed it was because you couldn't see enough concrete in the photographs you personally saw, remember?

I am yet to see any plausible explanation of all the dust that doesn't involve high explosives.

Because you didn't read the reports I linked to, as well as the fact that you apparently have little knowledge of demolitions. I already pointed out what problems there are when you rig a building for demolition and then cause a massive explosion via a plane. Now you've added ANOTHER problem by claiming that there have been explosives "waiting" for about 30 years. Think about it, if they screw up, if some of those explosives don't detonate or the demolition goes awry, all the conspirators are BUSTED. They would be executed for the greatest crime in American history.

 

[hellaeon]

Because of the WTC cough. It seems to me that the symptoms of WTC cough match the symptoms of calcium hydroxide poisoning. The WTC cough symptoms seemed to include caustic burning, chemical irritation. This cannot be explained by mechanically made dust alone.

This can be produced by heating the concrete to 900C. I'm not sure how you would do this except with high explosives. If the explosive was mixed with the concrete it would explain how all the concrete turned to dust.

I really don't want to have to calculate how much jet fuel it would take to heat 500,000 tons of concrete to 900C, but I assure you, there wasn't enough in the planes.

I am yet to see any plausible explanation of all the dust that doesn't involve high explosives.

hahahahaha man.....you rule dude....cheers for the laugh

 

[patchbunny]

I'm clearly counting six stories, which makes you wrong by a factor of 100%. That doesn't bode well for the rest of your "calculations".

What also needs to be remembered is that the buildings did not fall entirely within their own footprints. WTC 3-7 were destroyed or heavily damaged by falling debris, as were the surrounding buildings, as can be seen here:

http://911digitalarchive.org/crr/images/CRRDB/data/documents/5419.htm

I must admit I'm a little confused by the claim that there's not enough rubble. Are the buildings now shorter than previously claimed? What does this have to do with anything?

--Patch

 

[Blackwell]

I really don't want to have to calculate how much jet fuel it would take to heat 500,000 tons of concrete to 900C, but I assure you, there wasn't enough in the planes.

I am yet to see any plausible explanation of all the dust that doesn't involve high explosives.

So ALL 500,000 tons of concrete would have to be heated to this temperature in order to create the chemical responsible for the "cough"?

You really need to think things through before you post them.

 

[Ashles]

I think the concrete was mixed with explosives when the towers were built.

I honestly cannot believe anyone is taking this poster seriously after that post.

A new poster? Straight in with just about the stupidest conspiracy theory ever?

Need more evidence of troll status?

I really don't want to have to calculate how much jet fuel it would take to heat 500,000 tons of concrete to 900C, but I assure you, there wasn't enough in the planes.

I'm busy counting the different ways in which that statement confirms troll intent.

 

[hellaeon]

hahahahaha love, ever thought when you work in an office due to air conditioning most people get sick if one gets sick?

.......hahahahahaha built with explosives in the concrete hahahahahahaha.....Gold....