Any Aussies care about Geert Wilders visit?

[psionl0]

Those calling for jihad get more freedom of speech than those opposing muslims.

"Freedom of speech" means the freedom to say anything that is politically correct.

 

[Tony]

They are trying to suppress it. Those calling for jihad get more freedom of speech than those opposing muslims.

I've seen this a lot, although lately it has been less than in the past. For some reason, Islamic-fundy nutcases who hate gays, love violence and want religious law are coddled while christian-fundy nutcases who want the same are rightly called out for the cranks they are.

 

[Hallo Alfie]

I've seen this a lot, although lately it has been less than in the past. For some reason, Islamic-fundy nutcases who hate gays, love violence and want religious law are coddled while christian-fundy nutcases who want the same are rightly called out for the cranks they are.

I know virtually zero about Wilders. I wholeheartedly agree with the above, but as I understand it, Islam (as a religion/ideology) calls for and/or condones: female genital mutilation, death to non Islams, an Islam state run by religious doctrine, death to gays, subjugation of woman and so on.
If Christianity (or anyone else for that matter) called for these we would be demanding people's heads. It seems to me that our society lends itself to Christian teachings and vice versa because it was essentially based on those teachings.

If Wilders has a point, it is why is there no uproar about these offensive ideals in a western democracy; are they consistent with our values? And if not, what is to be done (I think he suggests ceasing Moslem immigration) and is there evidence of successful integration?

 

[A'isha]

I know virtually zero about Wilders. I wholeheartedly agree with the above, but as I understand it, Islam (as a religion/ideology) calls for and/or condones: female genital mutilation, death to non Islams, an Islam state run by religious doctrine, death to gays, subjugation of woman and so on.

No, it doesn't. "Islam" is not a single monolithic thing.

If Christianity (or anyone else for that matter) called for these we would be demanding people's heads.

Plenty of Christians actually do call for these things, and there's not nearly as much condemnation as there ought to be. Especially in my country (in fact, there's quite a large overlap here between those who most vociferously condemn those things in Islam, and those who favor most of those things as long as it's Christians who do it).

And if not, what is to be done (I think he suggests ceasing Moslem immigration) and is there evidence of successful integration?

Islam has been established in your country for at a century and a half. The mosque in Addelaide was built before your country was even independent.

 

[Hallo Alfie]

No, it doesn't. "Islam" is not a single monolithic thing.

The Qu'ran is not a single thing? That is where the teachings come from.

Plenty of Christians actually do call for these things, and there's not nearly as much condemnation as there ought to be.

If that were true, I would wholeheartedly agree. I have yet to see a Christian call for female genital mutilation.

Especially in my country (in fact, there's quite a large overlap here between those who most vociferously condemn those things in Islam, and those who favor most of those things as long as it's Christians who do it).

I find that very hard to believe, but what that has to do with Australia is another issue altogether. Our Christian community here is not as fundamental or vocal as those elsewhere.

That aside, it seems to me you are saying "our Christians do it, so it's ok for others to do it too". I will happily be corrected.

Islam has been established in your country for at a century and a half. The mosque in Addelaide was built before your country was even independent.

That's nice. But does it prove broad integration?

 

[Childlike Empress]

The Qu'ran is not a single thing? That is where the teachings come from.

So is the Bible. People come to all kinds of conclusion about that, from beating their children so they don't end up in hell while awaiting the rapture, to struggle for justice for the oppressed while following the golden rule.

The likes of Wilders pretend that there is one definitive way to understand the Koran, which flies into the face of the very essence of Islamic studies over the millenia, and has striking similarities to what the Nazis accused the Jews of. It's in the Talmud, they eat babies, and they struggle for world domination, and they are allowed to lie to reach their nefarious goals. You can't trust any of THEM. Sick and dangerous.

 

[A'isha]

The Qu'ran is not a single thing? That is where the teachings come from.

There's no one interpretation of the Qur'an. That is, in fact, partly why "Islam" is not a monolithic thing.

If that were true, I would wholeheartedly agree. I have yet to see a Christian call for female genital mutilation.

You should visit Tanzania sometime, where the prevalence of FGM among daughters of Christian women is higher than among daughters of Muslim women.

The horrific problem of FGM is not a problem of religion.

I find that very hard to believe, but what that has to do with Australia is another issue altogether. Our Christian community here is not as fundamental or vocal as those elsewhere.

Then maybe you shouldn't use such broad labels encompassing entire religions when discussing the activities of a specific subset within those religions.

That aside, it seems to me you are saying "our Christians do it, so it's ok for others to do it too". I will happily be corrected.

No, it's not okay when anyone does it.

I'm just not foolish enough to blame a religion as a whole and all it's billion-plus members for what some of those members are doing and saying, and merely pointing out that there's more than just the particular double-standard Tony claims exists going on here.

That's nice. But does it prove broad integration?

Muslims in Australia

 

[wombatwal]

I know virtually zero about Wilders. I wholeheartedly agree with the above, but as I understand it, Islam (as a religion/ideology) calls for and/or condones: female genital mutilation,

As far as I know Alfie, FGM is not an Islam thing.
It is cultural, and I think cultural to Northern Africa irrespective of religion.
I do stand to be corrected though.

 

[A'isha]

As far as I know Alfie, FGM is not an Islam thing.
It is cultural, and I think cultural to Northern Africa irrespective of religion.
I do stand to be corrected though.

Female Genital Mutilation/Cutting: A statistical exploration

 

[Hallo Alfie]

You should visit Tanzania sometime, where the prevalence of FGM among daughters of Christian women is higher than among daughters of Muslim women.

I thought we were talking about Muslims in Australia.

The horrific problem of FGM is not a problem of religion.

Perhaps not. But I do not hear of Christian, Buddhist or Hindu priests in Australia calling for it.

As far as I know Alfie, FGM is not an Islam thing.
It is cultural, and I think cultural to Northern Africa irrespective of religion.
I do stand to be corrected though.

Again, we are talking about Australia.

 

[A'isha]

Funny, you didn't seem quite so keen on making sure things were limited to just Australia when you claimed that "Islam (as a religion/ideology)" was all for FGM and killing "non Islams".

Perhaps you ought to be more careful with your terminology in the future, to avoid any more such confusion.

 

[lionking]

Funny, you didn't seem quite so keen on making sure things were limited to just Australia when you claimed that "Islam (as a religion/ideology)" was all for FGM and killing "non Islams".

Perhaps you ought to be more careful with your terminology in the future, to avoid any more such confusion.

Absolutely. The sort of stuff Alfie is posting is almost word for word from the right-wing shock jock playbook.

 

[Hallo Alfie]

Funny, you didn't seem quite so keen on making sure things were limited to just Australia when you claimed that "Islam (as a religion/ideology)" was all for FGM and killing "non Islams".

Perhaps you ought to be more careful with your terminology in the future, to avoid any more such confusion.

Gee, I'd have thought when discussing Islam in Australia, Girt Wilders in Australia, integration and assimilation in Australia, when you yourself provide a link about 'Muslims in Australia', not to mention your reference to a Mosque in Adelaide (which surprisingly is in Australia), references to the White Australia policy etc etc ..... you know, I really would have thought this was self evident.

 

[lionking]

Hang on, your comment was "Islam calls for", not "Islam as practiced in Australia and nowhere else in the world calls for". You were rightly called on this broadbrush.

 

[psionl0]

Meh...

Islam (as a religion/ideology) calls for and/or condones: female genital mutilation, death to non Islams, an Islam state run by religious doctrine, death to gays, subjugation of woman and so on.

That Geert Wilders sure is persuasive. He didn't have to say a word to persuade Alfie.

 

[Hallo Alfie]

Hang on, your comment was "Islam calls for", not "Islam as practiced in Australia and nowhere else in the world calls for". You were rightly called on this broadbrush.

Rubbish. I believe I was clear enough as was the topic. If others wish to meander off that is not my problem.

That Geert Wilders sure is persuasive. He didn't have to say a word to persuade Alfie.

Wilders has nothing to do with my views. It is interesting however that we would now choose to attack anyone who thinks the more extreme and vile teachings of Islam are not the problem, but simply raising them as a problem are.
If Christianity proposed these things and actively sought to implement them here in Australia, there would rightly be outcry.

 

[A'isha]

Gee, I'd have thought when discussing Islam in Australia, Girt Wilders in Australia, integration and assimilation in Australia, when you yourself provide a link about 'Muslims in Australia', not to mention your reference to a Mosque in Adelaide (which surprisingly is in Australia), references to the White Australia policy etc etc ..... you know, I really would have thought this was self evident.

Even in that context, your comments about "Islam (as a religion/ideology)" are still incorrect and painting with a broad brush. Muslims in Australia aren't any more single-minded and monolithic than they are worldwide. The grandchildren of the Albanian Muslim immigrants who came in the 20's aren't like the children of the Turkish Muslims who came in the 70's, and neither of them are like the newly-arrived Muslims born in Lebanon. And they, in turn, are different from the author of the book I cited, a Bangladesh-born naturalized Australian citizen. And some members of my own family live far closer to you than they do to me, having emigrated from Egypt to New Zealand in the 80's.

And my bringing up the Adelaide mosque and that book recommendation were an attempt to point out just how Muslims have integrated into your own county, to give you a local reference in answer to your specific question about integration.

 

[Tony]

Rubbish. I believe I was clear enough as was the topic. If others wish to meander off that is not my problem.

What you're witnessing is the double-standard in action. Notice how the Islamic-fundy apologists are belaboring the point that you didn't go out of your way to word your language such that you precisely identify that you are talking about Islamic fundamentalism in Australia despite the context. Such considerations are not given when the conversation is about Christian fundamentalism. Everyone knows that the conversation is about the extremism and not about every single individual Christian or every single interpretation of Christianity that may exist. Only with Islam is bandwidth wasted on such BS. Why? It is because Islam is coddled while Christianity isn't. Maybe Christianity would get the same treatment if Christian extremists rioted every time someone criticized Yahweh in a Facebook status update or political cartoon.

 

[A'isha]

What you're witnessing is the double-standard in action. Notice how the Islamic-fundy apologists are belaboring the point that you didn't go out of your way to word your language such that you precisely identify that you are talking about Islamic fundamentalism in Australia despite the context.

Because, as evidenced by statements of his like "The Qu'ran is not a single thing? That is where the teachings come from" and being quite clear that he was talking about "Islam (as a religion/ideology)", he wasn't.

Such considerations are not given when the conversation is about Christian fundamentalism. Everyone knows that the conversation is about the extremism and not about every single individual Christian or every single interpretation of Christianity that may exist. Only with Islam is bandwidth wasted on such BS. Why? It is because Islam is coddled while Christianity isn't.

No, it's because people raised in a Christian culture are more aware of the distinctions and divisions within Christianity and more likely to either be specific or make it directly clear what they're talking about, while "Islam" to most non-Muslims is this monolithic Other with just a single interpretation that all Muslims must adhere to.

And your intense hostility towards anyone who points this out and your repeated use of insulting labels like "Islamic-fundy apologists" whenever it happens mystifies me. At the very least you could channel your anger into efforts that will actually help.