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Any Anarchists Here?

Under your conditions, the society is not allowed to trade. I don't see why conducting trade with the governed world should be a disqualifier.

When a group, society or state depends on another group or society for its wellbeing, security and continued existence it becomes subordinate to the other group. In essence the more powerful society controls the weaker one. The majority of states are capable of existing and surviving entirely on their own, though with much lower living standard. They are independent. I don't see why anyone would want to establish a client "state" or society.

The only anarchistic societies I've heard about have survived entirely on farming and related small industries, parasitism (squatting, piracy and etc) or just survives on the state that preceded it and then collapses soon afterwards. All of these are obviously unable to support a good living standard.

How would an anarchistic society organize the trade of resources with others if it's extremely unorganized and decentralized? Millions of peoples lives depend on getting things such as medicine, electricity, fuel and other precious resources on a very tight schedule. Why would neighboring states even bother with trade when they could just invade them and take anything of value since the anarchistic society would be to weak to put up any serious resistance?

Well, in my conception of anarchism, I think the idea of private property is a good thing, but that rather then be enforced with violence, done through recognition of utility.

Please elaborate. I think it's pretty obvious that violence in necessary to protect someones private property. If someone would barge into my home and take my TV without my permission they should obviously be punished by the legal system, though such a system couldn't exist in an anarchistic society.

How would one organize the distribution of private property, with the "recognition of utility", on an absolutely huge scale counting millions if not billions of people? Who should decided what food you get to eat? Do you get your medicine on time or is it the neighbor that gets to survive this week?

In the case of land in particular, the traditional Lockian notion of title is quite murky. Very few land owners are the ones that originally "improved" the land.

Again, please elaborate.

More to the point, I don't think people should be restricted from freedom of movement.

Again, please elaborate. Should people be able to go wherever they want? Should i be able to walk into your bedroom and watch you and a girl go at it?
 
Ok, I define anarchism as a state where people are free, i.e., no one forces their will upon others with force or the threat of force.

As I explained, you can't force someone to be an anarchist, this is self-contradictory. I am not saying I know "how" to get people to not be violent, if I knew that I would have done it already, and we'd have world peace. So in "anarchotopia" no one would ever rape anyone. If they did, then anarchy wouldn't exist. When I say I am an anarchist, it is the morality I advocate. It is not a program to end violence.

I think if we get to assume a population of benevolent supermen, just about any form of government will work as well as any other.
 
I think if we get to assume a population of benevolent supermen, just about any form of government will work as well as any other.

humans don't need to be 'benevolent supermen'. just being ethical would do.
unfortunately humans are greedy. many are unfeeling and care nothing for their neighbours.
because of this, no political 'ism' can work in the real world. none do.
i have become convinced that any system becomes corrupt and decadent, due simply to human greed.

since no system works in the real world like they do in theory, i have chosen anarchism as the most desirable of theories.
i never expect to see any change in my lifetime, unless it is total collapse of the system. i doubt this will occur.

if humans were 'ethical', any political 'ism' would be nearly utopian.
 
You mean that the state of the world where the stronger and bigger states metaphorically gang-rape and enslave the smaller states and peoples just because they have precious resources, a good chunk of land or just because they look funny is supposed to be a GOOD example of a possible anarchistic society?
No, it's simply supposed to refute certain specific arguments about what an anarchistic society would necessarily be like. I agree that it refutes arguments on both sides. Of course the anarchists will argue that the problems result from the ways it's different from the society anarchists propose. The obvious response will be that the good bits result from the way it's different from the society anarchists propose. This is a common argument between anarchists and non-anarchists and one I've had with anarchists a few times.
 
basically, yes.
that is how mankind lived for most of our existence, in cooperative, consensus governed communities.
the very model of anarchist communism.

Er, no. Given that no hunter-gatherer society today lives in "cooperative, consensus-governed communities," the idea that that's how we lived 10,000 years ago is at best unsupported and more likely complete fantasy.

Hunter-gatherer societies have very strict hierarchies.
 
humans don't need to be 'benevolent supermen'. just being ethical would do.

And you get to define what "ethical" means here, right?

unfortunately humans are greedy. many are unfeeling and care nothing for their neighbours.
because of this, no political 'ism' can work in the real world. none do.
i have become convinced that any system becomes corrupt and decadent, due simply to human greed.

Studies in social psychology reveal that virtually all humans are greedy and xenophobic, so yes, any political system will have a degree of corruption.

since no system works in the real world like they do in theory, i have chosen anarchism as the most desirable of theories.

This makes no sense to me. Anarchism would have to be the system that requires people to act the furthest from how they do in real life.

i never expect to see any change in my lifetime, unless it is total collapse of the system. i doubt this will occur.

if humans were 'ethical', any political 'ism' would be nearly utopian.

Again, you would have to define "ethical". I'd say if humans cared exactly as much for every other person as they did for themselves, any political "ism" would be nearly utopian.
 
1.When a group, society or state depends on another group or society for its wellbeing, security and continued existence it becomes subordinate to the other group. In essence the more powerful society controls the weaker one. The majority of states are capable of existing and surviving entirely on their own, though with much lower living standard. They are independent. I don't see why anyone would want to establish a client "state" or society.

2.The only anarchistic societies I've heard about have survived entirely on farming and related small industries, parasitism (squatting, piracy and etc) or just survives on the state that preceded it and then collapses soon afterwards. All of these are obviously unable to support a good living standard.

3.How would an anarchistic society organize the trade of resources with others if it's extremely unorganized and decentralized? Millions of peoples lives depend on getting things such as medicine, electricity, fuel and other precious resources on a very tight schedule. Why would neighboring states even bother with trade when they could just invade them and take anything of value since the anarchistic society would be to weak to put up any serious resistance?



4.Please elaborate. I think it's pretty obvious that violence in necessary to protect someones private property. If someone would barge into my home and take my TV without my permission they should obviously be punished by the legal system, though such a system couldn't exist in an anarchistic society.

5How would one organize the distribution of private property, with the "recognition of utility", on an absolutely huge scale counting millions if not billions of people? Who should decided what food you get to eat? Do you get your medicine on time or is it the neighbor that gets to survive this week?



Again, please elaborate.



6.Again, please elaborate. Should people be able to go wherever they want? Should i be able to walk into your bedroom and watch you and a girl go at it?

1. Trade has historically been essential to prosperity. Nation-states engage in trade as well. This does cause a condition of inter-dependence. I think sometimes the trade can be exploitative, but this is when it's formalized in rules and such (see the WTO). People trading of their own free will have no reason to make a trade that isn't in their self-interest.

2. The collapse is usually the result of destruction by an outside force, not an internal collapse. As I said, the "downside" of anarchy is it doesn't have a response to those who choose to use violence.

3. Spontaneous Order. If you're not familiar with this phrase, see Adam Smith's "The Wealth of Nations."

4. Ok, I see I have to elaborate on what I mean by Anarchy. I think perhaps some things that are obvious to me (things I've thought for years) are alien concepts to people and thus require a bit of a gestalt shift to understand. Let's say a government collapses, and people continue to live and work without government. Then, a group of thugs with guns decides to start enforcing a monopoly on their drug trade. They enforce rules about who can sell what wear, they extort "protection" taxes, they redistribute wealth. What is this group? A government. At it's most basic, a government is a person or group of persons who use violence or the threat of violence to enforce their will on others. Some people require a government to have a monopoly on the use of force, but in reality this has never existed. Even in the USA, there are smaller government, i.e, bloods, organized crime, etc. who excersize de facto control over neighborhoods. The USA, as a nation state, is also constantly competing with other governments externally (wars). I don't agree with the anarcho-capitalists, because competing governments (like you see in Somalia, or alot of other african countries) tend to produce worse outcomes then more monopolized governments.
So when I talk of anarchy, I mean it as a personal moral belief. The weapons of an anarchist are reason, compassion, etc. My anarchism is more in line with Gandhi's or Tolstoi's then the Libertarian Socialists.
To answer your question about the voyeur, I would say you should lock your door. But obviously, imagining an anarchy implies an advanced moral code that includes respect for other people's privacy.
Anarchism for me is like, what kind of future do I want to work towards? What is right and wrong? And for me, the answer gets down to non-violence.

5. Again, spontaneous order. It's funny you mention food, because that is a specific quote from Adam Smith. Something like "It is not by the compassion of the baker, or the dictates of the king, that you fail to go hungry. It is the baker's self interest. Even in today's society, it is not the government that makes sure you get your medicine or food.
 
Studies in social psychology reveal that virtually all humans are greedy and xenophobic, so yes, any political system will have a degree of corruption.

Wanted to address this specific point. Any political or ethical discussion involves the way things "should be" as opposed to the way they are. Saying, well human beings are greedy, etc. could be used to argue anything. Human societies and individuals have been different, have made changes. Talking about the way things are pretty much shuts down all moral discussion (and analagous to the uncertainty principle, changes the way things are, since the way they are is based on assumptions of the way things could be, and thus self-annihilates.)
 
The obvious response will be that the good bits result from the way it's different from the society anarchists propose. This is a common argument between anarchists and non-anarchists and one I've had with anarchists a few times.

This is what is worth discussing. The positives and negatives of anarchism as anarchists advocate, not "why total anarchy can't exist".
 
Wanted to address this specific point. Any political or ethical discussion involves the way things "should be" as opposed to the way they are. Saying, well human beings are greedy, etc. could be used to argue anything. Human societies and individuals have been different, have made changes. Talking about the way things are pretty much shuts down all moral discussion (and analagous to the uncertainty principle, changes the way things are, since the way they are is based on assumptions of the way things could be, and thus self-annihilates.)

Agreed, but any useful discussion of how things "should be" must be based on an understanding of how things are, and more importantly, why. It is a fact that people are naturally greedy and zenophobic. Why? One reason is that we are products of evolution: being greedy helps keep you alive in many cases, and our brains evolved to form in-groups of ourselves and our kin, who we easily empathize with, and out-groups, who we don't easily empathize with.

Now that we understand something about how things are and why, we can ask if there's anything that can be done about it. In this case, I don't think there is. The results of studies on this are clear: when you get multiple groups of people, divided by even superficial differences like location or what name they call themselves, they will diverge culturally and begin viewing each other with hostility. Human greed and the corrupting influence of authority and power is also well documented. I think we have to live with the reality that these aren't really things that can be fixed and decide our systems of government accordingly.
 
I agree about the greed, and the corrupting influence of power and authority. Which is one reason I oppose the latter. As far as "greed" I would argue that in some forms, greed isn't a bad thing. As I was pointing out in my comments about the Wealth of Nations, greed in the form of self-interest can be a good thing. People doing work to benefit themselves is often a good thing. The difference between good greed and bad greed is long term self interest versus short term self interest. For example, in might be in your short term self interest to steal. But in the long term, you are creating a situation where you are more likely to be stolen from. In my mind, a large part of the key to improving ethics is developing critical thinking and understanding long term versus short term consequences. Wealthier societies with greater levels of freedom tend to value human life more then poorer repressive societies. In the music scene (I run an underground music venue), violence has gone down as people have realized the negative consequences of tolerating violent behavior
 
I agree about the greed, and the corrupting influence of power and authority. Which is one reason I oppose the latter. As far as "greed" I would argue that in some forms, greed isn't a bad thing. As I was pointing out in my comments about the Wealth of Nations, greed in the form of self-interest can be a good thing. People doing work to benefit themselves is often a good thing. The difference between good greed and bad greed is long term self interest versus short term self interest. For example, in might be in your short term self interest to steal. But in the long term, you are creating a situation where you are more likely to be stolen from. In my mind, a large part of the key to improving ethics is developing critical thinking and understanding long term versus short term consequences. Wealthier societies with greater levels of freedom tend to value human life more then poorer repressive societies. In the music scene (I run an underground music venue), violence has gone down as people have realized the negative consequences of tolerating violent behavior

We should also avoid the fallacy of equating evolutionary behaviors with morality, as many of the "survival of the fittest" racists did after Origin of the Species came out. I think it is important to understand how evolution shapes our behaviors and consciousness, but as a practical means to evaluate how that impacts our decisions, not as a guideline to moral systems.
 
We should also avoid the fallacy of equating evolutionary behaviors with morality, as many of the "survival of the fittest" racists did after Origin of the Species came out. I think it is important to understand how evolution shapes our behaviors and consciousness, but as a practical means to evaluate how that impacts our decisions, not as a guideline to moral systems.

Agreed. I would never say that we should do something only because we evolved to do it. I would, however, say that if it is a universal fact that humans tend to act in certain ways that we don't like, we need to construct our societies with the rules and enforcement necessary to discourage and control those behaviours.

People are ****: we're greedy and narcissistic, we're irrationally xenophobic and fearful, we submit too easily to authority, and our brains are programmed to commit logical fallacies. It sucks, but that's the reality we have to deal with.
 
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That is why I define government as violence.

Really? The first sentence begins with a tautology? Is this a serious response?

I tend to think the left-anarchist position against all hierarchy is not particularly coherent.

Why not?

Thus consensual communities do not have government.

Sure they do - if there is a body of people coming together around a proposed goal or rule, then even without an enforcement method, you have government. That people are consenting does not negate government. Indeed, you'll find people consenting to live in communities all across the US and no one calls those towns/cities/communities anarchy.
 
basically, yes.
that is how mankind lived for most of our existence, in cooperative, consensus governed communities.
the very model of anarchist communism.
You think that was a peaceful existence? Those tribes were constantly at war with each other over resources and religion.

bikerdruids definition of paradise: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPM-gJA62Rs
 
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