Anti-Muslim Terrorist Attack in... NZ?

[CaptainHowdy]

It seems so weird to me that one regular citizen, not elected by anyone, can single handedly cause an entire country to not only have their gun rights infringed but potentially their right to a jury infringed...

You're right about the weirdness of one person--basically a nobody--doing something that has such an impact on an entire country. The thing that's even weirder is that none of the solutions that are being discussed to prevent this from happening again have any chance of working while the one obvious solution that is guaranteed to work--stop importing people from an alien culture into your country--isn't even discussed.

It would be kind of funny in a way. If only the consequences were not so tragic.

 

[lionking]

You're right about the weirdness of one person--basically a nobody--doing something that has such an impact on an entire country. The thing that's even weirder is that none of the solutions that are being discussed to prevent this from happening again have any chance of working while the one obvious solution that is guaranteed to work--stop importing people from an alien culture into your country--isn't even discussed.

It would be kind of funny in a way. If only the consequences were not so tragic.

You don’t want Australians to move to NZ? Not that alien either.



Of course I get your point. Victim blaming of a most disgusting type. Shameful.

 

[uke2se]

Trouble is, he has no incentive to make things easier for the prosecution. In fact if he can make things hard for them then he might get lucky. Like the prosecution making a serious error and so he is found not guilty of serious crimes. And if they do not make any errors he is no worse off then if he pleaded guilty at the start of the process.

While I don't know much about the NZ justice system, I find that unlikely. In Sweden, a serious error on the part of the prosecutor would lead to another trial, with the suspect remaining in jail in the mean time. If the error would lead to a lenient sentence, the prosecutor could appeal to a higher court.

 

[Samson]

We have no gun rights in New Zealand. Owning a gun here is a privilege.

With an extraordinary low barrier to acquiring that privilege.
Brenton Tarrant crossed that barrier with a police interview with an online chat friend.
That is an unchallenged fact as I understand it.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

You're right about the weirdness of one person--basically a nobody--doing something that has such an impact on an entire country. The thing that's even weirder is that none of the solutions that are being discussed to prevent this from happening again have any chance of working while the one obvious solution that is guaranteed to work--stop importing people from an alien culture into your country--isn't even discussed.



It would be kind of funny in a way. If only the consequences were not so tragic.

Which "alien culture" just murdered dozens of innocent people?

Announcing a ban on immigration by ethnicity, religion, or place of origin will "other" such groups. This makes the likelihood of another outbreak of violence more likely, not less.

Terrorist groups love it when state repression against marginalized groups gets going. It's a bonanza for recruitment.

Gun enthusiasts were upset at .22rf magazine capacities, but that got tweaked and included. It's a little tougher to work folks up into a murderous frenzy over technical minutiae than wholesale social policy changes with heavy overtones of differential inherent worth of persons for their immutable qualities.

 

[uke2se]

Which "alien culture" just murdered dozens of innocent people?

Announcing a ban on immigration by ethnicity, religion, or place of origin will "other" such groups. This makes the likelihood of another outbreak of violence more likely, not less.

He knows that. That's the point of it all.

 

[The Atheist]

... but potentially their right to a jury infringed...

You just won dumbest comment of the year - there is zero potential for the right to trial being removed. The fact that I'd gladly dispense with it for Tarrant has as much chance of being enacted as you understanding that there is no "right" to own a gun in NZ.

Or many other countries, all of which have far lower gun death rates than USA.

Coincidence?

 

[The Atheist]

Which "alien culture" just murdered dozens of innocent people?

Australian.

Announcing a ban on immigration by ethnicity, religion, or place of origin will "other" such groups.

Yeah, but in the case of Australians, I'd be cool with that. I'd even go a step further and ban all arrivals from Australia.

That'd screw up their plans to deport all the Kiwis.

 

[The Atheist]

The cops have really got the bit between their teeth now. Desperately keen to make up for something, I'm assuming.

ANZAC Day ceremonies in Auckland alone have decreased from the planned 84 to a measly 26, because the cops can't get security to each one. Or, in their words "adequately resource" security for events.

What is so special about ANZAC events? There are a lot of people in one place, so we must have armed pigs on the scene? Srsly?

There will only be one event with over 2000 people at it - the dawn service at the Auckland Cenotaph.

Yet, we have a school in Auckland with over 3000 kids attending, and they don't suddenly require security. Nor do any of the other 10 schools in Auckland with over 2000 pupils.

I think some people need to calm down a little.

 

[PhantomWolf]

It seems so weird to me that one regular citizen, not elected by anyone, can single handedly cause an entire country to not only have their gun rights infringed

What gun rights?

 

[PhantomWolf]

You're right about the weirdness of one person--basically a nobody--doing something that has such an impact on an entire country. The thing that's even weirder is that none of the solutions that are being discussed to prevent this from happening again have any chance of working while the one obvious solution that is guaranteed to work--stop importing people from an alien culture into your country--isn't even discussed.

It would be kind of funny in a way. If only the consequences were not so tragic.

You're right, if we hadn't let Australians in, this never would have happened.

 

[Arcade22]

What gun rights?

The ones given by God, duh!

 

[The Atheist]

Interesting turn - an Aussie bloke reckons he reported Tarrant to the Australian police a couple of years ago: https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12220933

More evidence of looking the wrong way? CoI will be interested to follow that up, I expect.

 

[Dabop]

You're right about the weirdness of one person--basically a nobody--doing something that has such an impact on an entire country. The thing that's even weirder is that none of the solutions that are being discussed to prevent this from happening again have any chance of working while the one obvious solution that is guaranteed to work--stop importing people from an alien culture into your country--isn't even discussed.

It would be kind of funny in a way. If only the consequences were not so tragic.

You're right, if we hadn't let Australians in, this never would have happened.

One person had an impact on a country of 5 million people, 19 people had a much bigger impact on a country with a population of 330 million

NZ hasn't invaded anyone (yet)

 

[smartcooky]

Oh, looky here...

Ivanka honouring the victims of the Ethiopian Airlines crash.

I wonder who or what gave her the idea of wearing the headscarf?

 

[lionking]

The cops have really got the bit between their teeth now. Desperately keen to make up for something, I'm assuming.

ANZAC Day ceremonies in Auckland alone have decreased from the planned 84 to a measly 26, because the cops can't get security to each one. Or, in their words "adequately resource" security for events.

What is so special about ANZAC events? There are a lot of people in one place, so we must have armed pigs on the scene? Srsly?

There will only be one event with over 2000 people at it - the dawn service at the Auckland Cenotaph.

Yet, we have a school in Auckland with over 3000 kids attending, and they don't suddenly require security. Nor do any of the other 10 schools in Auckland with over 2000 pupils.

I think some people need to calm down a little.

Agreed. Curtailing ANZAC events is a victory for terrorism.

 

[The Atheist]

Right at the start of this thread I mentioned Christchurch and why it was a likely place for this to happen there.

Here's some more evidence of why Christchurch isn't like the rest of NZ: https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/112094867/fear-as-shooters-turn-canterbury-riverbed-into-a-war-zone

 

[Trebuchet]

Oh, looky here...

[qimg]https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyfruiucqs2a4vf/IvankaHeadscarf.jpg?raw=1[/qimg]

Ivanka honouring the victims of the Ethiopian Airlines crash.

I wonder who or what gave her the idea of wearing the headscarf?

I'm guessing she's in a Coptic church. It's likely what's expected there.

 

[smartcooky]

I'm guessing she's in a Coptic church. It's likely what's expected there.

She is almost certainly in a Coptic Church or a Tewahedo Church... in either case, they are Christian Churches, and Ivanka is Jewish...

My point is, however, why is she kowtowing to their religious persuasions, and why have the usual suspects in this thread not created a ****-storm over the abuse of women by the church?

When the shoe is on the other foot, the usual suspects don't want it to fit.

 

[angrysoba]

She is almost certainly in a Coptic Church or a Tewahedo Church... in either case, they are Christian Churches, and Ivanka is Jewish...

My point is, however, why is she kowtowing to their religious persuasions, and why have the usual suspects in this thread not created a ****-storm over the abuse of women by the church?

When the shoe is on the other foot, the usual suspects don't want it to fit.

I think there were a couple of points when it came to wearing a veil.

1.) In many cases, yes, it would be expected if you went to a funeral at a church to wear clothes in accordance with the occasion. This is what Ivanka was doing and also what the female New Zealand police officer was doing.

2.) There is the more problematic use of the veil as a symbol of solidarity. On the one hand, yes, it looks as though you are identifying with a minority group suffering from persecution meaning that it is solidarity with Islam...but the trade-off is that it ignores the problem that the veil is coercive, and therefore it is at the expense of solidarity with women who do not want to wear the veil.

In a similar way, if you use a flag of a country as solidarity for someone under attack - such as the French flag - you are implicitly accepting or even explicitly supporting the norms or the values of that country. Yet, when there have been bombs in, say, Pakistan, some people on the social medias are quick to ask, "And how come people aren't changing their profile picture to the Pakistan flag?" The answer should be obvious - because people do not want to support the state of Pakistan or the values of the state of Pakistan or the actions of the government of Pakistan which includes death for blasphemy, the funding of Islamic terrorists, the murder and persecution of religious minorities etc...