Anti-Muslim Terrorist Attack in... NZ?

[banquetbear]

So kicking the doors of multiple properties over a facebook photo is a good thing, right ?

...the word "kick" is not even used in that article. Embellishing the article to fit the narrative you want us to perceive is not in the best interests of skepticism. The "facebook photo" story is the story given by the 16 year-old son of the deceased: is there any particular reason why you have chosen to believe that story as if it were gospel?

 

[smartcooky]

...the word "kick" is not even used in that article. Embellishing the article to fit the narrative you want us to perceive is not in the best interests of skepticism. The "facebook photo" story is the story given by the 16 year-old son of the deceased: is there any particular reason why you have chosen to believe that story as if it were gospel?

Because its the only bit that fits his pre-conceived narrative?

 

[Stout]

...the word "kick" is not even used in that article. Embellishing the article to fit the narrative you want us to perceive is not in the best interests of skepticism. The "facebook photo" story is the story given by the 16 year-old son of the deceased: is there any particular reason why you have chosen to believe that story as if it were gospel?

If you have new information that proves the news story is not-as-presented then please, in the name of skepticism, post it. If that new information happens show that the police initiated their searches with a polite knock and a request for entry then, in the name of skepticism, I'm be happy to acknowledge it.

No need to let my hyperbole get in the way of the truth.

 

[angrysoba]

If there were a time in NZ when you'd expect any person still able to breathe to recognise taking a gun on a plane would require a mass of correct paperwork and check-in procedures, it would be now.

This bloke obviously missed all that: https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12217211

Why? I thought there was no security on domestic flights.

An Air New Zealand flight from Auckland to Christchurch was delayed after a firearm was found in the hold of the aircraft by security teams.

 

[PhantomWolf]

Why? I thought there was no security on domestic flights.

There is no security on regional domestic flights. These are the Air Nelson (operating under Air NZ) and so are the 50 seat Bombardier Q300's.

The major routes between Auckland, Wellington, Christchurch, Dunedin, and Queenstown, are serviced by Air NZ and JetStar, both using the larger Airbus A320s. All of those flights have security screening.

 

[banquetbear]

If you have new information that proves the news story is not-as-presented then please, in the name of skepticism, post it. If that new information happens show that the police initiated their searches with a polite knock and a request for entry then, in the name of skepticism, I'm be happy to acknowledge it.

No need to let my hyperbole get in the way of the truth.

...the news story as presented said nothing about "kicking doors". That isn't hyperbole, that is a distortion of the truth for the purposes of presenting a false narrative.

I haven't disputed the "story as presented." I don't need to provide new information: the fact that the "facebook photo story" came from the 16 year-old son of the deceased is information enough to be able to know that 1) the source of the information is likely (but not necessarily) biased, and 2) we have not heard the police-side of the story. With those 2 bits of information it is reasonable to conclude that we don't have all the information on exactly what happened here, and to proceed with a narrative that the police are "kicking in doors" based on only a "facebook photo" is irresponsible.

 

[Stout]

...the news story as presented said nothing about "kicking doors". That isn't hyperbole, that is a distortion of the truth for the purposes of presenting a false narrative.

I haven't disputed the "story as presented." I don't need to provide new information: the fact that the "facebook photo story" came from the 16 year-old son of the deceased is information enough to be able to know that 1) the source of the information is likely (but not necessarily) biased, and 2) we have not heard the police-side of the story. With those 2 bits of information it is reasonable to conclude that we don't have all the information on exactly what happened here, and to proceed with a narrative that the police are "kicking in doors" based on only a "facebook photo" is irresponsible.

How do you know kicking doors is a distortion of the truth ? There's obviously some police version of the events where they deny doing that, right ? Or is kicking in doors so highly unusual when conducting searches in NZ that there's a very slim possibility that this would have happened ?

Sure, the kid could have made it up, but the police side of the story should clarify that, should it not ? I'm sure we'll be hearing that version of the story.....shortly.

 

[The Atheist]

I have to wonder whether Tarrant is related to Breivik, or has just followed his life with plans to copy it to the last detail.

He's now crying that he isn't being allowed visitors or phone calls.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/ch...ue-shooter-makes-formal-complaint-from-prison

 

[smartcooky]

I have to wonder whether Tarrant is related to Breivik, or has just followed his life with plans to copy it to the last detail.

He's now crying that he isn't being allowed visitors or phone calls.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/ch...ue-shooter-makes-formal-complaint-from-prison

"Paremoremo has the highest number of Māori and Pacific Island staff in the country. The prisoner will be dealt with by officers of different ethnic origins, he said."

"The inmate was escorted by four to five Corrections staff at Whenuapai, where he was handed to the Site Emergency Response Team from Auckland Prison, a normal practice when moving high risk inmates.

None of the SERT members who collected the gunman were European. "

Ooh, that will be fun for a white supremacist.

No visitors
No phone calls
No newspapers
No access to radio or television
No contact with the outside world at all

So no chance for him to bask in his fake self-glory for what he has done. All good AFAIC... His name does not even get mentioned in the article, and frankly, I'd sooner it stays that way. He should become persona non grata, invisible, and rot in jail for the rest of his life.

 

[banquetbear]

How do you know kicking doors is a distortion of the truth ? There's obviously some police version of the events where they deny doing that, right ? Or is kicking in doors so highly unusual when conducting searches in NZ that there's a very slim possibility that this would have happened ?

...the NZ police do not need to deny a claim made by an anonymous poster on a message board. The claim that the police "kicked down doors" is your claim: not a claim made by anyone else. A cursory google search show zero instances of NZ police actually kicking in doors. If you have information to suggest that "kicking down doors" is typical behavior when executing a search warrant here then now would be the perfect time to present that information.

Sure, the kid could have made it up, but the police side of the story should clarify that, should it not ? I'm sure we'll be hearing that version of the story.....shortly.

Its not necessarily a matter of the "kid making it up." The kid is probably expressing what he genuinely thinks happened. He is allowed to do that: its a free country. The facebook photo most probably wasn't enough for a warrant: the police need "reasonable grounds to suspect" a punishable offence has been made, and "reasonable grounds to believe" that evidence will be found at the location.

 

[Stout]

It's just a figure of speech really, this whole kicking in the door thing. I'm not meaning the NZ police literally go up to a door, shout POLICE ! as they knock loudly then raise a jack booted foot and apply a swift kick to the door to bust it open before rushing in with weapons drawn. Especially not when dealing with violent offenders, no sir they don't kick in the door.

They use a battering ram like everybody else.

Until we find out what those reasonable grounds were, we work with what we got.

 

[cullennz]

"Paremoremo has the highest number of Māori and Pacific Island staff in the country. The prisoner will be dealt with by officers of different ethnic origins, he said."

"The inmate was escorted by four to five Corrections staff at Whenuapai, where he was handed to the Site Emergency Response Team from Auckland Prison, a normal practice when moving high risk inmates.

None of the SERT members who collected the gunman were European. "

Ooh, that will be fun for a white supremacist.

No visitors
No phone callsNo newspapers
No access to radio or television
No contact with the outside world at all

So no chance for him to bask in his fake self-glory for what he has done. All good AFAIC... His name does not even get mentioned in the article, and frankly, I'd sooner it stays that way. He should become persona non grata, invisible, and rot in jail for the rest of his life.

The rest I don't give a toss about, but the highlighted concerns me.

 

[smartcooky]

The rest I don't give a toss about, but the highlighted concerns me.

Why? Prisoners making phone calls from prison is a privilege.

There is no right for any prisoners to make phone calls, other that the very first one they are granted when arrested.

 

[cullennz]

Why? Prisoners making phone calls from prison is a privilege.

There is no right for any prisoners to make phone calls, other that the very first one they are granted when arrested.

Yes there is

Prisoner telephone criteria:

Every prisoner is entitled to make at least 1 outgoing telephone call of up to 5 minutes duration per week, in addition to any calls to an outside agency or his or her legal advisor.

https://www.corrections.govt.nz/res...Prison-Operations-Manual/Communication/C.html

 

[EHocking]

Why? Prisoners making phone calls from prison is a privilege.

There is no right for any prisoners to make phone calls, other that the very first one they are granted when arrested.

No, it is a statutory entitlement for a prisoner to “make at least 1 outgoing telephone call of up to 5 minutes’ duration per week.”
That is apart from calls to their legal advisors or official agencies.

The State has the authority to restrict this access.

 

[smartcooky]

Yes there is



https://www.corrections.govt.nz/res...Prison-Operations-Manual/Communication/C.html

True... I hadn't thought of that.....

He's in isolation so the rules may be different, but in any case, I still don't care. This guy wasn't stealing milk money from his neighbour, he's a terrorist.

Some people might be saying "but his rights, his rights"? The only "rights I care about at the moment is those of the victims, the survivors, and their families.

 

[cullennz]

True... I hadn't thought of that.....

He's in isolation so the rules may be different, but in any case, I still don't care. This guy wasn't stealing milk money from his neighbour, he's a terrorist.

Some people might be saying "but his rights, his rights"? The only "rights I care about at the moment is those of the victims, the survivors, and their families.

From a personap case of him point of view it isn't going to cost me any sleep, but when you add it to the whole 14 years for the manifesto thing and what looks will be knee jerk hate speech laws that sound like are happening the authorities and govt aren't exactly filling me with confIdence with their reactions to a horrible event.

The only thing I can compare it to is ditching the provocation defence over one mister nutburger Weatherston

 

[smartcooky]

From a personap case of him point of view it isn't going to cost me any sleep, but when you add it to the whole 14 years for the manifesto thing and what looks will be knee jerk hate speech laws that sound like are happening the authorities and govt aren't exactly filling me with confIdence with their reactions to a horrible event.

The only thing I can compare it to is ditching the provocation defence over one mister nutburger Weatherston

Meh. One person's "kneejerk reaction" is another persons "breaking point".


Oh, and I'm 100% in favour of the removal of "provocation" as a defence to murder.

 

[cullennz]

Meh. One person's "kneejerk reaction" is another persons "breaking point".


Oh, and I'm 100% in favour of the removal of "provocation" as a defence to murder.

It wasn't just murder. It was everything.

But that is a different topic, so shouldn't have mentioned it.

The point is knee jerk ill thought law tends to lead to bad law, and taking away this scums basic rights is stupid, to say the least.

Wouldn't surprise me if he ends up suing in a few years and we end up forking millions in court costs.

 

[CaptainHowdy]

"Paremoremo has the highest number of Māori and Pacific Island staff in the country. The prisoner will be dealt with by officers of different ethnic origins, he said."

"The inmate was escorted by four to five Corrections staff at Whenuapai, where he was handed to the Site Emergency Response Team from Auckland Prison, a normal practice when moving high risk inmates.

None of the SERT members who collected the gunman were European. "

Ooh, that will be fun for a white supremacist.

Why would the ethnicity of the law enforcement officers make a difference? In New Zealand, is it common and/or acceptable for people of one ethnic group to treat members of a different ethnic group more harshly than their own? In the United States, a prisoner if supposed to be treated the way prisoners are treated. The ethnicity of anybody involved shouldn't influence anything.

No visitors
No phone calls
No newspapers
No access to radio or television
No contact with the outside world at all

So no chance for him to bask in his fake self-glory for what he has done. All good AFAIC... His name does not even get mentioned in the article, and frankly, I'd sooner it stays that way. He should become persona non grata, invisible, and rot in jail for the rest of his life.

So just lock him up in solitary confinement without a trial? Make it as though Brenton Harrison Tarrant just walked into a dense fog late one night and was never heard from again?