Another unarmed black man shot

[Dr. Keith]

That's funny: I know three people who were "declined." Non-felons, non-criminals.

Beanbag

This is probably off topic, but I am interested in that. If you want to start another thread, revive another thread, or PM me I would be interested in knowing how a non-criminal was denied a handgun. I've never heard of it among my peers.

 

[Hercules56]

Do you think the way you treat them may have something to do with it?

That is possible.

But I do believe that many cops have an itchy trigger finger when it comes to black suspects.

And I've seen way too many videos of cops beating the crap out of suspects even after they obey orders.

 

[DreadNiK]

for clarity

She will be acquitted because the victim is black, and she's a police officer.

Are you saying that those will be the reasons why she's acquitted?

If she is, yes.

 

[sadhatter]

That is possible.

But I do believe that many cops have an itchy trigger finger when it comes to black suspects.

And I've seen way too many videos of cops beating the crap out of suspects even after they obey orders.

So police are, like any other organization, humans. So we know despite our best efforts unfit people will manage to become police. Just like they become doctors lawyers, burger cooks, garbage people etc.

My question is where is the line drawn on good encounters versus bad ones? If we have 100 good cops for every bad one is that enough to stop branding all or most cops evil? 1000 to one , 1000000 to one?

At the moment all cops are paying for the mistakes of a few. Maybe this is right, maybe it isn't. But how low does the ratio have to be before we no longer blame the entire system?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

So police are, like any other organization, humans. So we know despite our best efforts unfit people will manage to become police. Just like they become doctors lawyers, burger cooks, garbage people etc.

My question is where is the line drawn on good encounters versus bad ones? If we have 100 good cops for every bad one is that enough to stop branding all or most cops evil? 1000 to one , 1000000 to one?

At the moment all cops are paying for the mistakes of a few. Maybe this is right, maybe it isn't. But how low does the ratio have to be before we no longer blame the entire system?

This only partially explains what is going on.

There is a pattern of cops assuming black males are so dangerous, the police make no effort to deescalate minor situations.

Often cops cause the confrontation rather than respond to actual criminal activity.

Cops all too often take the low road when confronting contempt of cop. It is their job to deal with contempt of cop, not to get mad and beat or kill a suspect.

Cops protect each other, they lie and cover up for each other.

Cops are given special protection when they are involved in a death. For example, they are given time and a lawyer before being interviewed, something they would not afford a suspect.

 

[Fudbucker]

This only partially explains what is going on.

There is a pattern of cops assuming black males are so dangerous, the police make no effort to deescalate minor situations.

Often cops cause the confrontation rather than respond to actual criminal activity.

Cops all too often take the low road when confronting contempt of cop. It is their job to deal with contempt of cop, not to get mad and beat or kill a suspect.

Cops protect each other, they lie and cover up for each other.

Cops are given special protection when they are involved in a death. For example, they are given time and a lawyer before being interviewed, something they would not afford a suspect.

It is not just black males.

 

[sadhatter]

This only partially explains what is going on.

There is a pattern of cops assuming black males are so dangerous, the police make no effort to deescalate minor situations.

Often cops cause the confrontation rather than respond to actual criminal activity.

Cops all too often take the low road when confronting contempt of cop. It is their job to deal with contempt of cop, not to get mad and beat or kill a suspect.

Cops protect each other, they lie and cover up for each other.

Cops are given special protection when they are involved in a death. For example, they are given time and a lawyer before being interviewed, something they would not afford a suspect.

You could say the same for any profession, if you don't think doctors protect doctors, lawyers protect lawyers, etc. You don't really understand how things are.

Your statement seems to read that cops are taught to be violent in general, which would not explain the higher percentage of unarmed blacks killed (for the record while I can say there are unjustified shootings, making a qualifier of unarmed seems to be very disingenuous. An unarmed person can still present a major threat , and it is not a police officers fault someone picked a fight they couldn't win), the only other way to read it is that cops are trained specifically to be more violent toward blacks, which doesn't pass the smell test either. 1 how are they hiding this training from black officers, and two we run into the issue of plenty of white unarmed people shot. So either the training isn't being followed right or this isn't the issue.

It makes much more sense that these incidents are caused by individuals who are either **** at their job, or racist. Not via some wink and nudge agreement to treat blacks poorly.

 

[Fast Eddie B]

There is a pattern of cops assuming black males are so dangerous, the police make no effort to deescalate minor situations.

Often cops cause the confrontation rather than respond to actual criminal activity.

Cops all too often take the low road when confronting contempt of cop.

Please make sure you're living up to your first name.

"There is a pattern...Often cops...Cops all too often..."

Yes, these things happen. But against what background?

IOW, how many thousands or tens of thousands of incidents turn out well for every one that goes tragically wrong? I think you lose sight of the skill and professionalism of most officers by only focusing on the ones who make mistakes or abuse the badge.

As sadhatter says, all professions have individuals who make mistakes. A surgeon may remove the wrong kidney, accidentally nick an artery, leave a tool inside, whatever. Lawyers make mistakes. Accountants make mistakes. Physicists make mistakes. And cops make mistakes. And all should be accountable.

Again, we do not know how many thousands or tens of thousands of calls this female officer handled with skill and aplomb before this tragedy. One misperceived threat, one twitch of a trigger finger and this officer's life is changed forever, as another needlessly ended.

But to take a handful of recent cases and jump to a conclusion about "a pattern" is a classic hasty generalization. Not to say we can't critique the officers' performance, and even charge them if there exist the elements of a crime. But just don't ignore all the positive outcomes and cherry pick the worst to make a case. That's not very skeptical.

 

[jimbob]

You could say the same for any profession, if you don't think doctors protect doctors, lawyers protect lawyers, etc. You don't really understand how things are.

Your statement seems to read that cops are taught to be violent in general, which would not explain the higher percentage of unarmed blacks killed (for the record while I can say there are unjustified shootings, making a qualifier of unarmed seems to be very disingenuous. An unarmed person can still present a major threat , and it is not a police officers fault someone picked a fight they couldn't win), the only other way to read it is that cops are trained specifically to be more violent toward blacks, which doesn't pass the smell test either. 1 how are they hiding this training from black officers, and two we run into the issue of plenty of white unarmed people shot. So either the training isn't being followed right or this isn't the issue.

It makes much more sense that these incidents are caused by individuals who are either **** at their job, or racist. Not via some wink and nudge agreement to treat blacks poorly.

I think that there is sufficient information to say that a number of police forces suffer from institutional racism. There are others where a number of officers are just rotten - the ten deputies who beat up Francis Pusok on camera suggest that at least part of California San Bernardino County Sheriff' Department was out of control.

 

[332nd]

So police are, like any other organization, humans. So we know despite our best efforts unfit people will manage to become police. Just like they become doctors lawyers, burger cooks, garbage people etc.

My question is where is the line drawn on good encounters versus bad ones? If we have 100 good cops for every bad one is that enough to stop branding all or most cops evil? 1000 to one , 1000000 to one?

At the moment all cops are paying for the mistakes of a few. Maybe this is right, maybe it isn't. But how low does the ratio have to be before we no longer blame the entire system?

Change cops to blacks & that's where the anger in the black community comes from.

 

[Fast Eddie B]

I think that there is sufficient information to say that a number of police forces suffer from institutional racism.

That's a given.

And where it exists, it should be dealt with harshly.

 

[N0z]

You could say the same for any profession, if you don't think doctors protect doctors, lawyers protect lawyers, etc. You don't really understand how things are.

Your statement seems to read that cops are taught to be violent in general, which would not explain the higher percentage of unarmed blacks killed (for the record while I can say there are unjustified shootings, making a qualifier of unarmed seems to be very disingenuous. An unarmed person can still present a major threat , and it is not a police officers fault someone picked a fight they couldn't win), the only other way to read it is that cops are trained specifically to be more violent toward blacks, which doesn't pass the smell test either. 1 how are they hiding this training from black officers, and two we run into the issue of plenty of white unarmed people shot. So either the training isn't being followed right or this isn't the issue.

It makes much more sense that these incidents are caused by individuals who are either **** at their job, or racist. Not via some wink and nudge agreement to treat blacks poorly.

Very much this. Cops arent out hunting black people. Some cops, like all people (of all backgrounds) are ****. The black lives matter movement could care less about black lives. They care about causing social unrest, and getting people upset at the police.

If black lives matter truly cared about black lives, they would be protesting the gang houses, and drug lord homes -- not the police. They would be helping the police. Teaching youth how to approach law enforcement, how to respect laws, how to better themselves.

All that organization cares about is its racist agenda/narrative. A lot of the "protesters" and rioters you are seeing on television are from out of state areas and they come with one purpose in mind. To shut things down, and to cause as much of a hassle as they can. Great positive message to endorse.

What exactly is positive about the blm? Their racist leaders? Their inability to even address the real problems, and causes of black lives being lost? Living in a fantasy land so you can go around shouting at the man... is foolish at best. And at worst, causing racial unrest, causing black lives to be lost due to resisting arrest, not listening to police orders. Illegally blockading highways, rock throwing, destroying police propery and private properies. Foolishness.

Black lives matter group is one of the worst things to happen to the black community in a long time.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

You could say the same for any profession, if you don't think doctors protect doctors, lawyers protect lawyers, etc. You don't really understand how things are.

And this matters, why?

Your statement seems to read that cops are taught to be violent in general,

Yours seems to read as pure straw.

which would not explain the higher percentage of unarmed blacks killed (for the record while I can say there are unjustified shootings, making a qualifier of unarmed seems to be very disingenuous.

??? Your own qualifier is disingenuous? Or is this more straw or are you now addressing someone other than me?

An unarmed person can still present a major threat , and it is not a police officers fault someone picked a fight they couldn't win), the only other way to read it is that cops are trained specifically to be more violent toward blacks, which doesn't pass the smell test either. 1 how are they hiding this training from black officers, and two we run into the issue of plenty of white unarmed people shot. So either the training isn't being followed right or this isn't the issue.

It makes much more sense that these incidents are caused by individuals who are either **** at their job, or racist. Not via some wink and nudge agreement to treat blacks poorly.

Too far off the rails here for me to follow what you are on about. I'd say you started off with a straw man and never got back to addressing anything I actually said.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Please make sure you're living up to your first name.

"There is a pattern...Often cops...Cops all too often..."

Yes, these things happen. But against what background?

IOW, how many thousands or tens of thousands of incidents turn out well for every one that goes tragically wrong? I think you lose sight of the skill and professionalism of most officers by only focusing on the ones who make mistakes or abuse the badge.

People are not protesting in Ferguson and Charlotte for no good reason. Using the denial, it doesn't really happen, it's all based on nothing tack just isn't furthering the discussion.

As sadhatter says, all professions have individuals who make mistakes. A surgeon may remove the wrong kidney, accidentally nick an artery, leave a tool inside, whatever. Lawyers make mistakes. Accountants make mistakes. Physicists make mistakes. And cops make mistakes. And all should be accountable.

Again, this matters, why?

Again, we do not know how many thousands or tens of thousands of calls this female officer handled with skill and aplomb before this tragedy. One misperceived threat, one twitch of a trigger finger and this officer's life is changed forever, as another needlessly ended.

I would have no problem if the woman had said right up front, she made a mistake, I'd see no criminal charges needed. But the minute she said, he posed a threat and the video puts that claim in serious doubt, she painted herself into a criminal corner.

But to take a handful of recent cases and jump to a conclusion about "a pattern" is a classic hasty generalization. Not to say we can't critique the officers' performance, and even charge them if there exist the elements of a crime. But just don't ignore all the positive outcomes and cherry pick the worst to make a case. That's not very skeptical.

Again, denying there's a problem is not moving the discussion forward. There is a problem and we've seen now that it is very widespread.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Very much this. Cops arent out hunting black people. Some cops, like all people (of all backgrounds) are ****. The black lives matter movement could care less about black lives. They care about causing social unrest, and getting people upset at the police.

If black lives matter truly cared about black lives, they would be protesting the gang houses, and drug lord homes -- not the police. They would be helping the police. Teaching youth how to approach law enforcement, how to respect laws, how to better themselves.

All that organization cares about is its racist agenda/narrative. A lot of the "protesters" and rioters you are seeing on television are from out of state areas and they come with one purpose in mind. To shut things down, and to cause as much of a hassle as they can. Great positive message to endorse.

What exactly is positive about the blm? Their racist leaders? Their inability to even address the real problems, and causes of black lives being lost? Living in a fantasy land so you can go around shouting at the man... is foolish at best. And at worst, causing racial unrest, causing black lives to be lost due to resisting arrest, not listening to police orders. Illegally blockading highways, rock throwing, destroying police propery and private properies. Foolishness.

Black lives matter group is one of the worst things to happen to the black community in a long time.

Are you aware of the racism inherent in your post?

 

[sadhatter]

Change cops to blacks & that's where the anger in the black community comes from.

But you have not proven that, this pattern could have many causes, or not even be a pattern just more sensationalist reporting.

But even giving you the benefit of the doubt and saying this is clearly racism, we are still branding all cops for the actions of few. How is this going to solve the problem? How is any of the garbage going on doing anything other than giving the bad cops an excuse?

It's like a person dying from exposure because they walked for help versus just waiting in place. "We have to do something, anything. " is a way of thinking that most often leads to tragedy when applied to important situations. If you don't have a good plan doing nothing is more productive than going with one that is only going to do harm.

 

[Fast Eddie B]

Again, denying there's a problem is not moving the discussion forward. There is a problem and we've seen now that it is very widespread.

I think we have both rather clearly articulated our positions.

Let me just say that I was not denying there might be a problem. I was just trying to put that problem, if there is one, in perspective.

 

[quadraginta]

It is quite likely sexism does play a roll and cops shoot men in situations that they don't shoot women. It is all about perceived threat and men no matter their behavior are scarier than women like blacks are scarier than whites.

The cultural assumption that women are the weaker, gentler sex is alive and well. People still are prone to find it inconceivable that a mother could harm her child even though the stats have been clear for decades that they are responsible for around 1/3 of the murders of children under five.

Cops should know better, but it is hard for training to entirely overcome years of social indoctrination.

 

[quadraginta]

So police are, like any other organization, humans. So we know despite our best efforts unfit people will manage to become police. Just like they become doctors lawyers, burger cooks, garbage people etc.

My question is where is the line drawn on good encounters versus bad ones? If we have 100 good cops for every bad one is that enough to stop branding all or most cops evil? 1000 to one , 1000000 to one?

At the moment all cops are paying for the mistakes of a few. Maybe this is right, maybe it isn't. But how low does the ratio have to be before we no longer blame the entire system?

Are you counting the cops who lie and cover for the bad cops as good or bad?

If the institutional culture is to close ranks and cover for the bad cops how do you separate out the good ones?

Would they be the ones who are railroaded off the force because they didn't toe the 'blue wall of silence' line?

 

[TomB]

If black lives matter truly cared about black lives, they would be protesting the gang houses, and drug lord homes -- not the police. They would be helping the police. Teaching youth how to approach law enforcement, how to respect laws, how to better themselves.

This attitude is part of the problem.

Regardless of how justifiable individual shootings are and whether statistics show different treatment of different groups, there is still a problem. The problem is that the police are not trusted by some of the communities they're supposed to serve.

The problem with your attitude above is that it amounts to: "If the community doesn't trust the police, that is something the community needs change and be more deferential to police officers." I disagree with that. If a community does not trust the police force, then it is the job of the police force to figure out how to win the trust of the community. It may amount to something as simple as changing the way they talk to the public.

Another thing is that, while everyone SHOULD be polite and respectful to police officers, it is not a crime to not be polite and respectful. The police, however, while in uniform and on duty have a professional obligation to be polite and respectful to the public. What a lot of police do (and they do this to white people too) is establish themselves as the top dog in charge in every interaction. I think white people just get annoyed by this, grumble, and go about their day. Minority groups, particularly blacks sometimes seem to react much more negatively to this. In the US, there are historical reasons for this.

The takeaway from this is that if there is friction between the public and the police, it is incumbent on the police to make changes in how they approach the public. Once that happens, or even the attempt to do that happens, you might see more of a case by case critical evaluation of these incidents. You have to realize that, despite appearances, the protests are not about individual instances, but the overall relationship between the police and the communities they are supposed to serve.