Are you black?

Hopefully you're not discounting the arguments of another poster because of their skin colour?

Hey...I'm just saying that they shouldn't use the PCP Ploy.

Could you clarify what you mean by "ploy"? Do you mean planting or pretending that it has effects different from reality? Also, upthread someone explained the effects of PCP and said that someone on that stuff might have their usual strength limits removed.
 
First off your statement is false. Cops don't "always" do anything.

Secondly, the vast majority of these cases investigated by outside agencies (Cops who dont know each other) determine the officer acted reasonably.

So always assuming the worst would appear to be an irrational action.
This should be obvious.

And how about one case where a cop shoots someone and the other officers on scene do not cover for them? Then it goes to the local prosecutors who have to work with this department. And even then cops have a very low conviction rate when they have cleared all those hurdles first.

Being held accountable for their actions is clearly terrifying as that is called a war on cops.
 
Of course not. Just look at how the cops "covered" for people like Serpico...

Bad cops like him have no place in the department. That is why you see so many former cops who reported other cops for violations. That is a much more assured ticket out of the cops than beating innocent people.
 
How does blood get on the window (open or not)?

1) it starts pretty high up. Was he shot in the head?
2) He falls quickly, and she only shot once.
3) That's a lot of liquid - a wide track all the way down.
4) Blood doesn't show up on his shirt till after he falls (this is a bit iffy, given the footage we have).

Was it there before he was shot? Is there a before and after view?

Good grief! Anything and everything to deny what is clearly visible in multiple images. There is no iffy about it.

What do you think is pooling on the ground at the bottom of the long dark stripe that goes from the window down the side of the car? Do you think he spilled his coffee?:rolleyes:
 
And how about one case where a cop shoots someone and the other officers on scene do not cover for them? Then it goes to the local prosecutors who have to work with this department. And even then cops have a very low conviction rate when they have cleared all those hurdles first.

Being held accountable for their actions is clearly terrifying as that is called a war on cops.

Here. This one was posted exactly one page back in this thread.

http://fox2now.com/2015/03/25/femal...der-charges-for-shooting-and-killing-suspect/

And here, this one took two seconds to google.

http://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-white-officer-manslaughter-20160804-snap-story.html

I dont mind to debate things rationally. But if you find that you keep making easily disprovable, baseless statements you might want to stop and reconsider your argument.
 
I think it is this attitude - your attitude - that is one of the root causes of the riots in Charlotte. Seriously, if you want to create a world of insensate violence...then keep doing what you are doing: keep rationalizing that which is inexcusable.
WTF?
 
Really? I'd like to see those studies.

Cops search more non-whites than whites for drugs but find drugs on a larger percentage of the whites they do search. That should be enough to start your research, let me know if it doesn't get you there.

Bad cops would get civilian complaints and should get weeded out of the police force quickly. In theory at least. In practice, it's probably true that the power of police unions has made it harder to remove bad cops.

Yep. Theory v. practice, practice usually prevails.

As a society we should work on that if there really is an unacceptable percentage of bad cops. I haven't seen evidence one way or the other.

And yet you did know that it is hard to remove bad cops.

How can we not have an unacceptable percentage of bad cops if we know that the system for removing bad cops is broken?


It's certainly possible that the odds are higher than I think. I don't think the occasional story or video of a cop behaving badly is meaningful, however. There are 750,000 cops and something like 13 million arrests per year. Having a controversial encounter happening once a week is to be expected given that cops are human beings.



Actually, no. Actual assaults on cops average 50,000 per year. Even if you think that number is exaggerated by, say, a factor of two, you're still talking about a police officer being assaulted in 1 out of 500 arrests. It's not unreasonable to think that a police officer gets assaulted less than 20% of the time he thinks he's in a dangerous situation.

Nice move from encounters to arrests. Reset and play that one over again and you'll see I'm closer to right.

And did you mean less than 0.2%?

Actually, I doubt there is good reason to be afraid of cops unless you routinely break the law. That doesn't mean that there aren't law-abiding people who are afraid of cops, but I think the fear is irrational. Of course, the media doesn't help by publicizing only those instances where cops are behaving badly and not the orders of magnitude more numerous instances of cops behaving professionally, even heroically.

And there is less reason for cops to be afraid of citizens unless they routinely escalate the situation. That doesn't mean there aren't good cops who are afraid of citizens, but I think their fear is irrational. Etc.


I believe that demanding compliance is part of protocol. It's not only a way to minimize risk for the police officer, but it is actually a good way for him to assess the level of risk. I'm not a police officer, so I don't really know, but it's been my experience that cops kind of go ape-**** if you don't follow their instructions. Getting out of the car after a traffic stop is a definite no-no, for example.

Find someone who does know and get back to us on this one.

I ask because I have had many encounters with cops that did not seek any form of compliance and those encounters were uniformly less stressful for all involved.

Well, once again, you're seeing only the video tape showing bad behavior by cops. Perhaps if you watched one of those reality cop shows on cable, you would see lots of video showing good behavior of cops in response to very bad behavior by suspects.

Agreed, either is edited to being useless. But in this case it is pretty clear that protocol was not followed, so it seems a bit hollow to say they were restrained by protocol.

I doubt there are very many cops who are looking for confrontations. Nothing good can come of it from their point of view. At best, they'll have lots of paperwork. At worst, they could be disciplined, injured, or even prosecuted.

Agreed, but going into every encounter with a cloud of fear and a need for compliance will have that result, whether intended or not. As I mentioned upthread, this can be an unintended consequence of training focused solely on officer safety. It colors every encounter.
 
Yes, and no one has claimed that the police reached the conclusion that it was PCP based on a field test. It was four days after the shooting before they claimed it was PCP, possibly giving them time to send the substance to a lab for testing.

After watching the enhanced and zoomed in video from the Washington Post, I'm not so sure. Anyway, I'm going to step away from this part of the argument. It's starting to feel like an argument with a 9/11 truther over whether or not the bright light seen in a still photo of the airliner entering the World Trade Center was a static discharge or a missile being fired from the airplane's fuselage. Hopefully the crime scene photos will clarify one way or the other.
Yeah, well in this case it's the people denying the window was up that are the truthers. The news has begun acknowledging the fact the window was up. No one is arguing all this nonsense that there isn't a stripe of blood from the window down the door that is seen the pooling on the ground.

Are people in this thread going to admit they are wrong when the window up becomes established fact?


It counters the narrative that he was sitting there innocently on the side of the road waiting for someone to help him with his broken car when some white supremacist cop rolled up on the situation guns hot looking to kill herself a black man.
A narrative which isn't relative one way or the other, as you note:

As I said earlier, I've only seen enough to convince me that Crutcher's actions called for no more than a Taser. I think Shelby overreacted....
 
Agree that the window looks to be up and the "streak" continues past the door handle.

Still not sure it's a blood streak though. He's shot in the body and falls quickly. How would that much blood come out that fast, and then he have time to get it on his hand then streak it down the window/door?

Have you ever seen the complete video of the Vietnamese man being shot in the head by the general in this famous photo? Watch how fast the blood pours out of his head seconds after he hits the ground. You can see it pumping out like a faucet (second 12 to second 18). [Warning, once you see it you can't un-see it.]



Bullets hitting major vessels can leave a lot of blood on the wall or car window in this case in a short period of time..
 
Yeah, well in this case it's the people denying the window was up that are the truthers. The news has begun acknowledging the fact the window was up. No one is arguing all this nonsense that there isn't a stripe of blood from the window down the door that is seen the pooling on the ground.

Are people in this thread going to admit they are wrong when the window up becomes established fact?


A narrative which isn't relative one way or the other, as you note:
Are you conceding that the window being up is not yet an "established fact", because a reading of this thread indicates that no one has taken a position contrary to that.
 
Are you conceding that the window being up is not yet an "established fact", because a reading of this thread indicates that no one has taken a position contrary to that.

Actually, I think the main proponent of that stand only just responded right after Ginger's post. So at the time she wrote it, I believe without naming names she was waiting for that confirmation.
 
Have you ever seen the complete video of the Vietnamese man being shot in the head by the general in this famous photo? Watch how fast the blood pours out of his head seconds after he hits the ground. You can see it pumping out like a faucet (second 12 to second 18). [Warning, once you see it you can't un-see it.]



Bullets hitting major vessels can leave a lot of blood on the wall or car window in this case in a short period of time..

Yeah if it's not blood I dont know what it is.
I think the window is up.
But, I could be swayed.
 
All depends on the state. Like there are no standards for having any training for police officers. Some states have certain mandates but in others you can still be hired given a gun and put on patrol just like the old days.

This article on Cracked highlights this.

http://www.cracked.com/personal-exp...arned-broke-police-force-in-lawless-town.html

I have said before, it is insane to have 18,000 forces with police powers, and 12,000 police forces. Both from considerations of efficiency and more importantly, it makes effective oversight far harder, and allows small pools of bad police culture to thrive. It also must make corruption easier - having to buy one person is going to cost less than a group of 50, who also have superiors that want to know what is going on. As we can see, large police forces are far from immune to systemic bad behaviour (Baltimore is the current poster child) but smaller forces would be more susceptible than large ones.
 
Are you conceding that the window being up is not yet an "established fact", because a reading of this thread indicates that no one has taken a position contrary to that.

It is an established fact, the images are clear. In this case I am using the definition of established fact to be when the news media repeats it enough times the people in this thread figure out no one is supporting their position but the biased echo chamber.

Edited to add: It will be an established fact when the Tulsa police department admits it. So far they haven't.
 
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Yeah if it's not blood I dont know what it is.
I think the window is up.
But, I could be swayed.

The window glare and the continuation of the line are why I think the window is up.

It would need something special to convince me how the window could be down in that photo, and that does question the police account.

1449457e415dfbb474.gif


ETA: I have no view on the back door window, which I looks darker, and might be open or shut from that picture
 
It is an established fact, the images are clear. In this case I am using the definition of established fact to be when the news media repeats it enough times the people in this thread figure out no one is supporting their position but the biased echo chamber.

Who knows. These people don't seem to let facts influence how they think. I mean, you show them a closed window, and they claim it may be open. They are quite an amazing species.
 
Cops search more non-whites than whites for drugs but find drugs on a larger percentage of the whites they do search. That should be enough to start your research, let me know if it doesn't get you there.

No, it doesn't get me there, since there is a simple explanation that has nothing to do with faulty indicators or even racism. I've explained it at least twice before on this forum. The explanation is that blacks tend to live in high crime areas where the drug trade is industrialized and particularly violent. Whites tend to live in low crime areas where drugs are generally consumed and not traded or smuggled for profit. Since the police, as they should, focus more on cracking down on violence than drug consumption, they spend most of their efforts in black communities where the drug trade is particularly violent. In order to stop a person in a white community for drug possession, the suspicion has to be pretty strong. In a black community, since the effort is to disrupt the drug trade and perhaps harass known participants in the drug trade, stops will happen as part of a strategy even if their chance of catching somebody with his pants down, so to speak, is low. Furthermore, there is a bit of a cat and mouse game where the criminals in the drug trade are pretty savvy about tracking the police and/or keeping the merchandise in the hands of lower level people unknown to the police. If you watch The Wire, which allegedly depicts the reality of the Baltimore drug trade quite accurately, you can see this dynamic with your own eyes.

Yep. Theory v. practice, practice usually prevails.



And yet you did know that it is hard to remove bad cops.

How can we not have an unacceptable percentage of bad cops if we know that the system for removing bad cops is broken?

They could be weeded out at the beginning of their training, before they're accepted into (and protected by) the union. Or it could be that the training is so good that the percentage of bad cops is extraordinarily low to begin with.

Nice move from encounters to arrests. Reset and play that one over again and you'll see I'm closer to right.

Ah. Well, it wasn't intentional, but I did conflate encounters with arrests.

And did you mean less than 0.2%?

No, I meant that the 20% of dangerous arrests would result in an assault on a police officer, which means that there will be 5 times as many dangerous arrests as actual incidents of assault.

And there is less reason for cops to be afraid of citizens unless they routinely escalate the situation. That doesn't mean there aren't good cops who are afraid of citizens, but I think their fear is irrational. Etc.




Find someone who does know and get back to us on this one.

I ask because I have had many encounters with cops that did not seek any form of compliance and those encounters were uniformly less stressful for all involved.



Agreed, either is edited to being useless. But in this case it is pretty clear that protocol was not followed, so it seems a bit hollow to say they were restrained by protocol.



Agreed, but going into every encounter with a cloud of fear and a need for compliance will have that result, whether intended or not. As I mentioned upthread, this can be an unintended consequence of training focused solely on officer safety. It colors every encounter.

Well, overall I am skeptical that malfeasance by the police is so bad that it cries out for a remedy. I am even more skeptical that any practical remedy would result in a better quality of life and a lower homicide rate for any group, blacks included.

Ironically, I think things have probably improved dramatically because of the ubiquity of video recording. That discourages bad cops from acting badly and rewards good cops for acting goodly. Unfortunately, more video + sensationalist media + cognitive error = greater social unrest.
 
No, it doesn't get me there, since there is a simple explanation that has nothing to do with faulty indicators or even racism. I've explained it at least twice before on this forum. The explanation is that blacks tend to live in high crime areas where the drug trade is industrialized and particularly violent. Whites tend to live in low crime areas where drugs are generally consumed and not traded or smuggled for profit. Since the police, as they should, focus more on cracking down on violence than drug consumption, they spend most of their efforts in black communities where the drug trade is particularly violent. In order to stop a person in a white community for drug possession, the suspicion has to be pretty strong. In a black community, since the effort is to disrupt the drug trade and perhaps harass known participants in the drug trade, stops will happen as part of a strategy even if their chance of catching somebody with his pants down, so to speak, is low. Furthermore, there is a bit of a cat and mouse game where the criminals in the drug trade are pretty savvy about tracking the police and/or keeping the merchandise in the hands of lower level people unknown to the police. If you watch The Wire, which allegedly depicts the reality of the Baltimore drug trade quite accurately, you can see this dynamic with your own eyes.

It is a derail, but your entire explanation is an indictment of faulty indicators.



They could be weeded out at the beginning of their training, before they're accepted into (and protected by) the union. Or it could be that the training is so good that the percentage of bad cops is extraordinarily low to begin with.

Even if so, any such system that has a faulty QC system will have higher faults than are acceptable. You need both QA and QC.

Ah. Well, it wasn't intentional, but I did conflate encounters with arrests.

If I thought it was intentional I would have thrown in a BOOM!!! HEADSHOT!! or something similar. :)


No, I meant that the 20% of dangerous arrests would result in an assault on a police officer, which means that there will be 5 times as many dangerous arrests as actual incidents of assault.

Do you have any numbers for that? Because I could say that only 1% of arrests where the cop thought it would be dangerous actually are dangerous for the cop. Or I could say 0.2%.


Well, overall I am skeptical that malfeasance by the police is so bad that it cries out for a remedy. I am even more skeptical that any practical remedy would result in a better quality of life and a lower homicide rate for any group, blacks included.

There we disagree.

Ironically, I think things have probably improved dramatically because of the ubiquity of video recording. That discourages bad cops from acting badly and rewards good cops for acting goodly. Unfortunately, more video + sensationalist media + cognitive error = greater social unrest.

Possibly. Or we can work on reducing cognitive error while we increase accountability.
 

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