Another sincere question for theists...

[Ossai]

Farmermike – Karen

Can we agree that if there is a God, he has an acquired right as creator, to make the rules, even if his standards of conduct are impossibly high for us to attain on our own?

How impossibly high, from reading the bible, god’s morality and actions are seriously lacking. God promotes and/or orders everything from slavery to genocide.

And would it not be loving of Him, in recognition of that fact, to substiute his own righteousness as a means of making up the difference?

What difference? I’ve been following this thread and I still haven’t seen a reason god should be considered good that didn’t involve circular reasoning.

An illustration I heard once, likened God to the judge who encounters a childhood friend in the courtroom and is obliged to find him guilty but steps from behind the bench and accepts the judgement on himself?

When is god going to step up to the plate? Jesus certainly didn’t take the punishment onto himself, one lousy death and a crummy weekend verses the millions that preceded him and the billions that came after that never heard of him.
Then you get into the whole ‘what is hell’ question. Is it a place of eternal torment and pain or is it separation from god.
If you say place then three days verses eternity – not even close.
If you say separation from god – how could Jesus be separate from god when Jesus is god?

Ossai

 

[Ossai]

I know I posted too close together, but this thought hit me as I hit ‘post’.

Farmermike – Karen

From our perspective, cookies and ice-cream all round would seem to be a better way to go but maybe that's a dead end. At any rate, that same brutally honest God of the Old Testament, promises to uphold me through the trials of life, and I do take comfort in that.
One of my favourite tunes at church goes; "He knows my name. He knows my every thought. He sees each tear that falls and He hears me when I call."

What brings you comfort isn’t forgiveness per say, but the idea of a parental figure that you can turn to in times of need. The punishment and forgiveness are merely acts of [to use Doctor X’s phrase] Big Daddy.

Big Daddy the father figure – ready to deal the punishment or protection
Junior – older brother – willing to step in and take your punishment from Big Daddy or offer comfort when you need it
Spooky – mother figure in the background, always there but easily forgotten and informs Big Daddy of all your transgressions

Or to put it another way
You – Beaver
Big Daddy – Ward
Junior – Wally
Spooky – June

Ossai

 

[jimmygun]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by farmermike
It concerns me, whenver I attempt to present God in a nutshell, especially to a variously hostile audience, that I not invent some kind of non-threatening, fuzzy-wuzzy, easily marketable illusion. Selling Christianity would be a whole lot easier, minus the Old Testament and no doubt, great chunks of the New. Either God's never heard of "presentation", or He's not running for election here.
Can we agree that if there is a God, he has an acquired right as creator, to make the rules, even if his standards of conduct are impossibly high for us to attain on our own? And would it not be loving of Him, in recognition of that fact, to substiute his own righteousness as a means of making up the difference?
******************************************
Suffering remains an enigma. Like why did God choose to burden himself with us, live like us, be rejected by us and be nailed to a
cross by us?
From our perspective, cookies and ice-cream all round would seem to be a better way to go but maybe that's a dead end. At any rate, that same brutally honest God of the Old Testament, promises to uphold me through the trials of life, and I do take comfort in that.
One of my favourite tunes at church goes; "He knows my name. He knows my every thought. He sees each tear that falls and He hears me when I call."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
First of all I don't think there is a hostility here (probably due to my refraining to dish out my usual sarcasm).

Secondly you speak of God's impossibly high standards that man cannot reach. The god of the Christian bible has high standards but they involve genocide, murder, you name it. Man certainly has tried to attain such lofty standards but comes up miserably short compared to the wrath of God.

Thirdly the belief that God works in mysterious ways and we cannot fathom his intent is simply an excuse to allow the misery here on earth to continue. Allah' will, God's will, thy will be done etc.

One plus in man's corner is the acts of kindness, generosity, sacrifice and nobility that some of us have clearly demonstrated in spite of the horrors that go on in the world. Just look to the international aid that rushes to the fore when there are natural calamities. Again I will ask...where is the love of God. I simply do not see anything loving that could be attributed to him alone.

As Jerry Maguire says..."SHOW ME THE LOVE!"

 

[Art Vandelay]

All your lamentations about how horrible God is because of all the suffering in the world (undeserved death, hideous birth defects, etc.) could all be rendered meaningless if you just look at it a different way.

The question of this thread is not to explain the presence of suffering, but to prove the existence of divine love.

If our lives truly are eternal, than the mere 100 years we spend here is but a few minutes of our childhood.

So child abuse is okay, because it doesn't last forever?

Karen

Would someone please do the math on what the chances of me finding ultimate truth are, when I rule out the possibility of the "supernatural" from the get go, and check my enquiring mind, at the mere mention of the word science.

Translation: I've been told that materialists have ruled out the supernatural and have checked their enquiring minds, and I have completely checked my enquiring mind when it comes to questioning this claim. Irony? What irony?

Creationists are like a lawyer faced with overwhelming evidence against his client who realizes that there's no way he can argue the facts, and so tries to create "reasonable doubt" out of thin air. "You don't know magical sky pixies didn't do it. You just ruled out the possibility from the beginning, without any evidence. Don't be closeminded like the DA; consider all possibilities, no matter how silly or unproductive they are. And don't listen to the overwhelming testimony of expert witnesses; their methods could be flawed, and they quite possibly are engaged in a massive conspiracy to frame my client. And every single one of them, in cross examination, stated that they had not even considered the magical sky pixies theory. How can you trust such biased witnesses? DNA? Could have been planted by the pixies. Clothes soaked in blood? Could have been planted by pixies. Videotape showing my client killing the victim? Who knows what pixies are capable of?"

I guess it's not surprising that one of their most prominent advocates is not a scientist, but a lawyer. The job of a scientist is to take the evidence and get a conclusion; the job of a lawyer is to take a conclusion and find the evidence.

-And, And, why isn't forgiveness indicitive of love, if I have transgressed and deserve punishment?

I didn't say that it isn't indicative, just that it doesn't establish it. "Indicative" is a rather weak claim; it just means that there is reason to think that it might be.

An illustration I heard once, likened God to the judge who encounters a childhood friend in the courtroom and is obliged to find him guilty but steps from behind the bench and accepts the judgement on himself?

Makes me wonder where all these Christian allegories come from. In what country is punishment transferable? Anyway, taking punishment is quite different from forgiving. And the taking punishment argument doesn't wash, because it was God that imposed the punishment to begin with.

But maybe you're asking why God should be constrained by his constants?

It sure seems like a cop-out to say that God is omnipotent, and then, when faced with a question as to why God does not do something, to say "He can't", especially when the reason why He "can't" reeks of anthropomorphization.

 

[farmermike]

Yikes

Why did I think I could run something off in 5 minutes? I could quote from the Bible I suppose,(kidding) all the verses about God's yearning after us. Would that demonstrate love? Bottom line, I think the fact that God allows us the freedom to either seek or ignore Him, is loving- although admittedly dangerous for us. If God has indeed "loved us with an everlasting love," than I suppose it is painful to see that love repeatedly tossed back in his lap.
Is love love, if it is mandatory? Personally, I think the fact that my husband has a choice to love me or not, makes his affection more credible.
************************
I think the Old Testament establishes God as God- something that took the Isrealites( and myself) a long time to learn. It clearly portrays the very real consequences of ignoring his pre-eminance;fierce and uncomprimising. But co-existant with that, if you believe the Bible, is His love, patience, forgiveness and all the other qualities we like to advertise.
When you speak to me about the Greek Gods etc., wondering why God hasn't revealed himself, I say take out your history books and really deal with God the Son(i.e. Jesus).
Then, I say talk to Him for yourself. I obviously don't have God in a test tube, to put and end to the debate, but if, as I believe, He created us, then His desire and ability to communicate with us doesn't pose a problem. And I have never had a bright light or voice speak to me either,(King Mervoo) but I have at the lowest points in my life, when my education, status, wahtever, counted for nothing, known that He was present with me. You can call that an anthropomorphic projection, if you like(EvilDave) but I don't have that option.
I know we seem to be talking two different languages and I'm sure I've raised more objections than I've addressed but I guess that's the nature of the hunt. Over and out.

 

[Cosmo]

Re: Yikes

When you speak to me about the Greek Gods etc., wondering why God hasn't revealed himself, I say take out your history books and really deal with God the Son(i.e. Jesus).

Interesting. I've never seen Jesus in any history book I've ever read. Which books are you reading?

Then, I say talk to Him for yourself.

How does one go about doing this? Does he have a phone number?

I obviously don't have God in a test tube, to put and end to the debate, but if, as I believe, He created us, then His desire and ability to communicate with us doesn't pose a problem.

Then surely you can elaborate on methods used to communicate with him.

And I have never had a bright light or voice speak to me either,(King Mervoo) but I have at the lowest points in my life, when my education, status, wahtever, counted for nothing, known that He was present with me.

How do you know this? What gave you the idea that he was there? How do you know it wasn't Satan tricking you?

 

[farmermike]

Karen

Just wanted to clarify my point about is love worth anything if its mandatory. I meant to reference the question, "If God loves me, why didn't he brand me with a capital G at birth, so that I wouldn't have to wonder if he was there or not. " The Bible is clear that he wants our love and I think our choice is implicit in that.
************************************
How do you talk to God? How do you breathe? I think you assume the position that you're not omniscient and that you honestly want to know if He's there and then pour out your heart. As far as what history books, the historical accuracy of the Bible is beyond compare. That would be my first choice. Of course there are other, secular rerferences to him. And remember, a lot of what you read was written by fishermen, not fairies.

 

[Cosmo]

Re: Karen

The Bible is clear that he wants our love and I think our choice is implicit in that.

You're evading the point. How do you know the bible is true?

How do you talk to God? How do you breathe?

I expand my lungs and inhale air. I then contract my lungs and exhale air. You didn't answer the question.

I think you assume the position that you're not omniscient

I never said I was.

and that you honestly want to know if He's there and then pour out your heart.

I sure would like to know if he's there. You're still not answering the question - how does one "pour out your heart"?

As far as what history books, the historical accuracy of the Bible is beyond compare.

You can do better than that. What books are you looking at? I've not seen a single solid proof for the existence of Jesus, let alone God. Unfortunately, arguments such as these do not exist.

That would be my first choice. Of course there are other, secular rerferences to him.

Yes, and they're just as inaccurate as the religious references to him.

And remember, a lot of what you read was written by fishermen, not fairies.

Are you saying that something I've read was written by fairies?

 

[Ossai]

Farmermike – Karen

As far as what history books, the historical accuracy of the Bible is beyond compare.

In it’s inaccuracies, maybe. The bible is not a historical record. There are no independent historical references to Jesus of which I’m aware.

That would be my first choice. Of course there are other, secular rerferences to him.

References please.

How do you talk to God? How do you breathe? I think you assume the position that you're not omniscient and that you honestly want to know if He's there and then pour out your heart.

Tried it, nothing happened (a bit of history I was raised Southern Baptist which includes all the revivals, the putting down of science, the circular reference, the hypocrisy, etc – now if your answer is ‘no true christian’ that works as well. I’ve got a number of friends raised catholic, and methodist, and church of christ, and later day saints - all of it, SSDD, same sh!t different day.)

Just wanted to clarify my point about is love worth anything if its mandatory. I meant to reference the question, "If God loves me, why didn't he brand me with a capital G at birth, so that I wouldn't have to wonder if he was there or not. " The Bible is clear that he wants our love and I think our choice is implicit in that.

How do you love something for which there is no evidence?

Ossai

 

[farmermike]

Karen

[How do you love something for which there is no evidence?

Ossai [/B][/QUOTE]

I think therefore I am. I yearn therefore God is. Man cannot live by bread alone.....
********************************************
Malcolm Mugggeridge Jesus Rediscovered
"I increasingly see us in our human condition as manacled and in a dark cell. The chains are our mortal hopes and desires; the dark cell is our ego, in whose obscurity and tiny dimensions we are confined. Christ tells us how to escape, striking off the chains of desire, and putting a window in the dark cell through which we may joyously survey the wide vistas of eternity and the bright radiance of God's universal love. No view of life, as I am well aware, could be more diametrically opposed to the prevailing one today, especially as purveyed in our mass-communication media, dedicated as they are to the couter-proposition, that we can live by bread alone, and the more the better. Yet I am more convinced than I am in my own existence that the view of life Christ came into the world to preach, and died to sanctify, remains as true and as valid as ever, and that all who care to, young or old, healthy and infirm wise and foolish,...may live thereby, finding in our troubled, confused world, as in all other circumstances and at all other times, an elightenment and a serenity not otherwise available."

And why are you so quick to dismiss the #1 all-time bestseller
which purports to be the word of God who you purport to be interested in knowing?

 

[Skeptical Greg]

Re: Karen

... And why are you so quick to dismiss the #1 all-time bestseller
which purports to be the word of God who you purport to be interested in knowing?

And why are you so quick to regurgitate the " All time best seller. " propaganda.. Yes, millions of copies have been printed, but relatively few people actually seek out a bible in a book store, and shell out the list price. The overwheming majority of Bible sales, can be attributed to bulk purchases by religious groups, who then pass them out for free. Very few of them get read. That puts the Bible right up there with fliers from Chinese restaurants.

As for why I dismiss it. I did bother to read it.

 

[Atlas]

I keep returning to human feeling as the source or driver of humanity's belief in it's gods.

When we live in an unenlightened time when the world is sending it's worst to smite us or when we are powerful enough to smite others we view ourselves as cursed or blessed. Smiting is what a deity should be about, after all what is the use of power without the ability to smite one's enemies. No doubt if you have a lot of enemies, your god will as well.

In an enlightened time when we have the alternative perspectives of science alongside religious perspectives we have more options.

Getting ill can be interpreted by germ theory and we no longer need to be bled to let the demons run out onto the ground.

But such knowledge remains imperfect because it does not explain all our feelings and "illnesses".

I've wondered about the transformation of a smiting god into a loving god. That is, what makes an unchanging god change?

Isn't god the answer to whatever a people look for and cannot find for themselves? When we are weak and being preyed upon we look for a god who will smite our enemy. When we are strong and can handle that business ourselves we look to god to fill in what is still missing in our lives.

That is, once we move past food, warmth, and shelter in our hierarchy of needs we reach in the fullness of time moments of profound alienation. In those moments the concepts of forgiveness and love are realized for their human value. When we are overcome by feelings of shame and guilt we search for a way out. And it's not being alone that is the most difficult for us, it's the feeling of being unloved.

Christians recognize that lowest of the low feeling, of being filled with shame and guilt, of feeling trapped and unloved... they call it rock bottom. Here is where conversion comes.

One either lives in the feeling of desolation or chooses to feel differently, to feel loved, to feel healed. It's a flat earth to round earth type conversion... nothing changes but everything changes.

By accepting a heretofore unreal concept of god as real, as solid, and as positively defined - specifically for your ills - you can psychologically escape your condition where a moment ago you could not. If you happen to reach conversion in a congregation of the faithful you will also receive an overwhelming outpouring of felt affection for which you are unprepared. Shame, guilt, and unlovedness are disappeared and your are filled with warm, safe, loved feelings.

To me, this is how the politically correct god of today comes into being and has replaced the harsh deity of yesteryear. We have our needs and if we can find a psychological mechanism to ameliorate that condition, we have found god.

 

[Ossai]

Farmermike – Karen

And why are you so quick to dismiss the #1 all-time bestseller
which purports to be the word of God who you purport to be interested in knowing?

I read it.
And the rest of that is nothing more than an appeal to popularity.

You’re quoting apologetics now? Why bother when the foundation of your religion is so unstable to begin with?

Have you ever actually read the bible, cover to cover, not selected passages?
When you do, take notes. It’s easy to find contradictions and inaccuracies.

Ossai

 

[KingMerv00]

Sorry, been gone for awhile from this thread.

Karen, I've noticed you've shifted your stance since the beginning of this post. At first, you attempted to prove the existence of God through concrete means. Now you are appealing to an internal method of proof by using metaphors and analogies. I suggest the reason for this shift is because there ARE not physical proofs of God.

If you wish to assert that your emotions reveal an objective reality about the universe, I think you will run into the same problem.

Edit: This might be an urban legend but isn't the Bible also the most stolen book of all time?

 

[Skeptical Greg]

Re: Karen

I think therefore I am. I yearn therefore God is. Man cannot live by bread alone.....
********************************************
Malcolm Mugggeridge Jesus Rediscovered
"I increasingly see us in our human condition as manacled and in a dark cell. The chains are our mortal hopes and desires; the dark cell is our ego, in whose obscurity and tiny dimensions we are confined.

What a sad philosophy.. I can understand why such a person needs an imaginary friend to help them get by.

 

[farmermike]

Re: Re: Karen

What a sad philosophy.. I can understand why such a person needs an imaginary friend to help them get by.

What's even sadder is that you seem determined to skirt its resonance.

******************************
And can we please drop the imaginary friend crap that seems to be such a popular comeback. As I tried to point out in one of my earlier posts, had I invented God I would have left out all the scarey, demanding parts that you guys seem to have such a hard time reconciling.
**************
Atlas, you should be a big fan of God's fierce and uncomprimising side. Because God is often sold as the Bid Daddy in the sky, does not change the often uncomfortable truths about his nature as presented by Him in the Bible.
******************************
Also, might I add that when I had come to the end of myself, as mentioned earlier, and knew that God was present with me, it was not a particularly pleasant feeling- it was almost a dread. I knew that the God I had paid largely lip service to, was real and that he owed me nothing.
**************************
As for the quality of my evidence changing, what evidence would you consider appropriate to the task? I already admitted I didn't have Him on hand in a test tube. God is spirit. How would you quantify that? In fact I would suggest that you too are spirit(soul) with temporal body. And the question was, why do I yearn if there is nothing to yearn for?
********************
My point about the Bible is that while I have oft heard the refrain,"Why doesn't God show Himself?", you refuse to consider the evidence of a book that claims to be His word. If I wanted to know about chemistry, I'd take out a chemistry book. If I wanted to know about God, why wouldn't I read the Bible? Because Randy's good buddies had apparently already debunked it?
****************************
Sorry for the confrontational tone. I'm really not here to match wits but hopefully to point out that you grossly underestimate Christianity, and that for all its warts and flaws, it remains a beacon of hope that I think meets the burden of proof. "Faith is the resting of the mind on the sufficiency of the evidence."
This whole exercise is just further proof to me that the Bible's characterization of humanity's innate rebellion against God, is right on the money.
" The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, becuase he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else......God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps
reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us. For in him we live and move and have our being. As some of your own poets have said, "We are his offspring." Acts 17:24-25,27-28 (and I know you consider it pitiful that I resort to quoting scripture, as if that proved anything)

 

[Skeptical Greg]

Re: Re: Re: Karen

Sorry for the confrontational tone. I'm really not here to match wits but hopefully to point out that you grossly underestimate Christianity, and that for all its warts and flaws, it remains a beacon of hope that I think meets the burden of proof.

No need to apologize.. Got to go with what you have.

And what would you think might cause us to underestimate Christianity? Surely not all those warts and flaws?

Surely after two thousand years, we should expect more than a beacon of hope from the just and loving creator of the universe.

I , personally, have a higher standard of love and friendship than that.

 

[Ossai]

farmermike
What's even sadder is that you seem determined to skirt the Koran’s resonance.

And can we please drop the imaginary friend crap that seems to be such a popular comeback. As I tried to point out in one of my earlier posts, had I invented God I would have left out all the scarey, demanding parts that you guys seem to have such a hard time reconciling.

It’s not our god, so we’re not trying to reconcile the inconsistencies, just pointing them out.

Atlas, you should be a big fan of God's fierce and uncomprimising side. Because God is often sold as the Bid Daddy in the sky, does not change the often uncomfortable truths about his nature as presented by Him in the Bible.

So, you have no problem worshiping a genocidal maniac?

Also, might I add that when I had come to the end of myself, as mentioned earlier, and knew that God was present with me, it was not a particularly pleasant feeling- it was almost a dread. I knew that the God I had paid largely lip service to, was real and that he owed me nothing.

Fear not love, interesting.

As for the quality of my evidence changing, what evidence would you consider appropriate to the task?

Oh, showing up and proving he was god would be a good start. Since god is omni-, he could really tailor make any evidence required by anyone.

God is spirit. How would you quantify that?

What is spirit?

In fact I would suggest that you too are spirit(soul) with temporal body.

Evidence?

And the question was, why do I yearn if there is nothing to yearn for?

Fear.

My point about the Bible is that while I have oft heard the refrain,"Why doesn't God show Himself?", you refuse to consider the evidence of a book that claims to be His word.

Exactly what parts of the bible are supposed to be evidence? How can you tell those bits from the bits that aren’t evidence? What if the evidence bits contradict each other or what we already know about how the world works?

I'm really not here to match wits but hopefully to point out that you grossly underestimate Christianity,

One of the largest religions in the world, that has caused and been used as an excuse for some of the most horrible atrocities perpetrated, and you expect me to underestimate it! Fear it – Yes, fear it’s adherents and the lengths to which they’ll go to ensure their ‘one true religion’ is dominate – Yes, underestimate it – No.

and that for all its warts and flaws, it remains a beacon of hope that I think meets the burden of proof. "Faith is the resting of the mind on the sufficiency of the evidence."

Faith is belief without evidence, technically according to the dictionary :
Faith: Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.
Making up your own definitions doesn’t work.

God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him,

Except those specifically created not to find him, IE damned before birth. And those others, god doesn’t want to find him, IT those sends delusions.
And, according to some sects, everyone, except 144,000 selected to go to heaven.

Ossai

 

[Skeptical Greg]

 

[sackett]

Clippity-clopping over old stuff again

What makes Christianity so different from any other cult? If you encountered a religion like Christianity somewhere up the Amazon, or in backwoods New Guinea, you'd be able to examine it objectively and describe it dispassionately. How would your description differ from any other body of anthropological observations?

It's been suggested that all religions can be considered "contact religions," i.e., collections of beliefs arising from impacts between cultures. I don't know about the overall viability of that idea, but you could make a case for Christianity being a kind of cargo cult (and Cargo is the very type and emblem of a contact religion), dummied up to appeal to the millions of disfranchised people in the late Hellenistic and Roman worlds. Certainly it offers comfort for present hardships (mansions in the sky someday) and, interestingly, payback for all those high and mighty oppressors who do evil to the poor, poor faithful.

The Cargo prophet says, "Baimbai village gavman come plenny too muss! Woh! Olim witepellah go baggerimup pinis!" (Soon the Village Government will surely come! Aye verily! All the whites will die!) The apocalyptic parts of Cargo may be borrowed from Christianity - or they may not be. Perhaps this stuff arises naturally in the hearts of the religious when they feel abused. Then they devise an imaginary friend, that is, their god, who loves them right enough, but who is furiously vengeful toward those dirty, unrighteous SOBs who refuse to believe in Him. Hence many people's puzzlement over what's so loving about a god who promises ghastly and everlasting agonies if you don't buy the line.

Oh well. That galloping sound you hear is me riding my favorite hobby horse yet again: There is no descriptive way you can distinguish a false from a true religion.

(Edited to make another try at htmlling italics, and to make my point more obscure.