Another School Shooting

[sarge]

No. They are not even remotely the same, no matter how often you publicly pretend that they are.

Interesting discussion for another thread perhaps. Let’s move back on topic……another school shooting.


The only achievable solution to our 2A problem is clear; replace two members of the Supreme Court. Then we can enact laws that require privately owned guns to be secured in a manner that prevents minors from accessing them. Contrary to what non-Americans so blithely proclaim, there is no possibility that the 2A itself will be altered within the next generation. We only need it properly interpreted by a competent court.

 

[jt512]

The only achievable solution to our 2A problem is clear; replace two members of the Supreme Court. Then we can enact laws that require privately owned guns to be secured in a manner that prevents minors from accessing them. Contrary to what non-Americans so blithely proclaim, there is no possibility that the 2A itself will be altered within the next generation. We only need it properly interpreted by a competent court.

I doubt you need to change the composition of the Supreme Court to enact such a law. California already has such laws. I think they would be upheld if challenged in court. Requiring a gun to be stored so that a minor does not have access to it would not seem to infringe on the right to keep and bear arms.

 

[smartcooky]

Apparently, it is throwing you. There is no comparison between the hate speech laws of the U.K. (and other European democracies) and what is unprotected speech in the U.S. The U.K.'s hate speech laws would be flat-out unconstitutional in the U.S.

Indeed.

In the UK, a man taught his dog to do a Nazi salute on command - that command was "Sieg Heil" - and then he posted it online. He ended up being charged with a hate crime, found guilty, and fined. Scummy and reprehensible as this is, it would never even be charged in the US

Comedian Ricky Gervais summed it up perfectly on Twitter after the verdict.

"If you don't believe in a person's right to say things that you might find 'grossly offensive', then you don't believe in Freedom of Speech."

I heartily agree.

 

[Darat]

And simply wearing an orange shirt as a protest are grounds to sack you in the USA. That couldn't happen in the UK because we have freedom of expression.

We can trade "my freedom of expression are better than yours" stories as much as folk like but what links that to "another school shooting"?

(ETA: And by the way it wasn't just because he trained the dog to go "Seig Heil" as the judge put it "The centrepiece of your video consists of you repeating the phrase 'Gas the Jews' over and over again" )

 

[Steve]

And simply wearing an orange shirt as a protest are grounds to sack you in the USA. That couldn't happen in the UK because we have freedom of expression.

We can trade "my freedom of expression are better than yours" stories as much as folk like but what links that to "another school shooting"?

(ETA: And by the way it wasn't just because he trained the dog to go "Seig Heil" as the judge put it "The centrepiece of your video consists of you repeating the phrase 'Gas the Jews' over and over again" )

People sometimes seem rather enamored of the Trump method of stating "facts".

 

[smartcooky]

And simply wearing an orange shirt as a protest are grounds to sack you in the USA. That couldn't happen in the UK because we have freedom of expression.

But it isn't illegal. You can't be arrested for wearing an orange shirt.

I know the incident you are referencing here, and you are completely mischaracterizing it. Florida has some of the lousiest employment law in the USA. It is an "at will" state, where you can be legally fired without cause, and there are no grounds to appeal against it.

We can trade "my freedom of expression are better than yours" stories as much as folk like but what links that to "another school shooting"?

Either you have freedom of expression or you don't. Suppression of such should be limited to that which is likely to directly cause physical harm, such as shouting "fire" in a crowded theater, or directly instructing an individual how to build a bomb. It should not extend to saying something that a few snowflakes might find offensive. Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr.'s opinion in the United States Supreme Court case Schenck v. United States has been twisted a long way beyond its original meaning.

And yes, this does relate to school shootings because its part of the discussion about things that might trigger a student to go on a shooting spree. If you can't see how those are related, there isn't much I can say further that will help.

(ETA: And by the way it wasn't just because he trained the dog to go "Seig Heil" as the judge put it "The centrepiece of your video consists of you repeating the phrase 'Gas the Jews' over and over again" )

Regardless, while that is also offensive, and the act of a scummy individual, the fact is that it was expression which people should be free to make, and if they are not free to make it, then you don't have free speech/freedom of expression - and that it was prosecuted is a not only a farce, it is the action of dictatorships and police states.

 

[Darat]

And what has this to do with another school shooting?

 

[Thermal]

I know the incident you are referencing here, and you are completely mischaracterizing it. Florida has some of the lousiest employment law in the USA. It is an "at will" state, where you can be legally fired without cause, and there are no grounds to appeal against it.

Nitpick: even in an "at will" state, like the one I also live in, there are a ton of grounds to contest wrongful dismissal. I know of several people (including my blushing bride) who successfully sued for wrongful dismissal despite my state's formal policy of legal termination "for good reason, bad reason, or no reason at all".

 

[jimbob]

Nitpick: even in an "at will" state, like the one I also live in, there are a ton of grounds to contest wrongful dismissal. I know of several people (including my blushing bride) who successfully sued for wrongful dismissal despite my state's formal policy of legal termination "for good reason, bad reason, or no reason at all".

I imagine racial discrimination would be an obvious example

 

[jt512]

(ETA: And by the way it wasn't just because he trained the dog to go "Seig Heil" as the judge put it "The centrepiece of your video consists of you repeating the phrase 'Gas the Jews' over and over again" )

"Gas the Jews," too, would be protected speech in the U.S., as is "Long live the Intifada," "From the river to the sea," and Nazis marching in Skokie.

 

[HansMustermann]

(ETA: And by the way it wasn't just because he trained the dog to go "Seig Heil" as the judge put it "The centrepiece of your video consists of you repeating the phrase 'Gas the Jews' over and over again" )

TBH even the dog thing doesn't make it any better to say the least. It's one thing to get drunk or drugged one day and make an antisemitic video, it's kinda another to have even gone through all the work of training a dog for it in advance. The latter shows quite the dedication, to put it mildly.

 

[smartcooky]

And what has this to do with another school shooting?

I answered you. That you chose to ignore that answer is down to you!

 

[catsmate]

And what has this to do with another school shooting?

It's the usual distraction tactics of certain USAians, especially the pro-gun ones.

 

[smartcooky]

It's the usual distraction tactics of certain USAians, especially the pro-gun ones.

If you look below my avatar, you should notice something

And while I own a couple of guns that are used EXCLUSIVELY for hunting and gun club target shooting, I am hardly what you could call "pro-gun"... I would give them up in a heartbeat if gun ownership were ever made illegal.

 

[catsmate]

If you look below my avatar, you should notice something

And while I own a couple of guns that are used EXCLUSIVELY for hunting and gun club target shooting, I am hardly what you could call "pro-gun"... I would give them up in a heartbeat if gun ownership were ever made illegal.

This is true and if I was offensive towards you I apologise. I was referring to what I refer to as "gunfondlers" the obsessive gun nuts.

For reference I curently own several firearms, legally, in Ireland and when I lived in the US I also owned weapons (including for self-defense in one case).

 

[smartcooky]

This is true and if I was offensive towards you I apologise. I was referring to what I refer to as "gunfondlers" the obsessive gun nuts.

For reference I curently own several firearms, legally, in Ireland and when I lived in the US I also owned weapons (including for self-defense in one case).

No offense taken

Any solution to America's mass shooting disease is going to have to involve some kind of restrictions on gun ownership, and so long as their Supreme Court have a majority who think the prefatory clause of 2A is meaningless and irrelevant, that ain't gonna happen.