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Merged Another school shooting / Who needs guns to stop a shooter?

Skeptic Ginger said:
Blah blah blah...

Why is this about a competition, bad black guys vs bad white guys, incredible hero saves kids in a school vs, I dunno, a homeowner successfully defends themselves by shooting an intruder?

Can you not just appreciate this woman?
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I don't know, why can't you just do that?
 
Who needs guns to deal with a gun man

seems this person Antoinette Tuff did not need a gun just intelligence, empathy and strength.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/aug/25/antoinette-tuff-heroism-missing-from-politics

In January, when Barack Obama called for the US nation to put pressure on politicians to pass gun control legislation, he warned: "Every day we wait [the number of Americans who die at the end of a gun] will keep growing." Last Tuesday was set to be one of those days. While legislation lay orphaned in Congress, 20-year-old Michael Hill walked into Ronald E McNair Discovery Learning Academy in Decatur, Georgia, with an AK-47-style assault rifle, 500 rounds of ammunition and "nothing to live for".

With 870 children inside aged between five and 11 years and Hill confessing that he had not been taking his psychiatric medication, the nation was, in all likelihood, staring down the barrel of yet another horrific school shooting.

Luckily for everybody, Hill took as his hostage the school bookkeeper, Antoinette Tuff. What followed was an amazing illustration of calm and brinkmanship by Tuff – all recorded on her call to emergency services – during which she managed to successfully negotiate between Hill and the police.]n January, when Barack Obama called for the US nation to put pressure on politicians to pass gun control legislation, he warned: "Every day we wait [the number of Americans who die at the end of a gun] will keep growing." Last Tuesday was set to be one of those days. While legislation lay orphaned in Congress, 20-year-old Michael Hill walked into Ronald E McNair Discovery Learning Academy in Decatur, Georgia, with an AK-47-style assault rifle, 500 rounds of ammunition and "nothing to live for".

With 870 children inside aged between five and 11 years and Hill confessing that he had not been taking his psychiatric medication, the nation was, in all likelihood, staring down the barrel of yet another horrific school shooting.

Luckily for everybody, Hill took as his hostage the school bookkeeper, Antoinette Tuff. What followed was an amazing illustration of calm and brinkmanship by Tuff – all recorded on her call to emergency services – during which she managed to successfully negotiate between Hill and the police.
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I'm no fan of firearms in schools, and I think Ms. Tuff was awesome, but I also think this guy WANTED to be talked out of it. Otherwise he wouldn't have proceeded as he did; he would have been a lot more secretive until he had already begun to kill people. It's not realistic to think this would work in most cases.
 
In January, when Barack Obama called for the US nation to put pressure on politicians to pass gun control legislation, he warned: "Every day we wait [the number of Americans who die at the end of a gun] will keep growing." Last Tuesday was set to be one of those days. While legislation lay orphaned in Congress, 20-year-old Michael Hill walked into Ronald E McNair Discovery Learning Academy in Decatur, Georgia, with an AK-47-style assault rifle, 500 rounds of ammunition and "nothing to live for".

With 870 children inside aged between five and 11 years and Hill confessing that he had not been taking his psychiatric medication, the nation was, in all likelihood, staring down the barrel of yet another horrific school shooting.

Luckily for everybody, Hill took as his hostage the school bookkeeper, Antoinette Tuff. What followed was an amazing illustration of calm and brinkmanship by Tuff – all recorded on her call to emergency services – during which she managed to successfully negotiate between Hill and the police.]n January, when Barack Obama called for the US nation to put pressure on politicians to pass gun control legislation, he warned: "Every day we wait [the number of Americans who die at the end of a gun] will keep growing." Last Tuesday was set to be one of those days. While legislation lay orphaned in Congress, 20-year-old Michael Hill walked into Ronald E McNair Discovery Learning Academy in Decatur, Georgia, with an AK-47-style assault rifle, 500 rounds of ammunition and "nothing to live for".

With 870 children inside aged between five and 11 years and Hill confessing that he had not been taking his psychiatric medication, the nation was, in all likelihood, staring down the barrel of yet another horrific school shooting.

Luckily for everybody, Hill took as his hostage the school bookkeeper, Antoinette Tuff. What followed was an amazing illustration of calm and brinkmanship by Tuff – all recorded on her call to emergency services – during which she managed to successfully negotiate between Hill and the police.
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Is there an echo in here?
 
These things are great when they work out. This person was obviously disturbed and likely suicidal... A bit of empathy was all he needed.

But these things don't always work out well.... In my long career I've read a number of accounts of law enforcement officers trying to "talk down" such people and getting shot in the process.
 
Tiktaalik said:
I'm no fan of firearms in schools, and I think Ms. Tuff was awesome, but I also think this guy WANTED to be talked out of it. Otherwise he wouldn't have proceeded as he did; he would have been a lot more secretive until he had already begun to kill people. It's not realistic to think this would work in most cases.
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This event ended well, but most do not. Most of these idiots come in firing, determined to die after killing. I don't think you can point to this one as typical or exemplary of anything.
 
Bad guys with guns can sometimes be talked down. That they can't always doesn't disprove that. Bad guys with guns can sometimes only be stopped with other force, that they can't always doesn't disprove that either. It's false dichotomy to say one disproves the other. What is important is to figure out when each is needed and how to use each most effectively.
 
Bikewer said:
In my long career I've read a number of accounts of law enforcement officers trying to "talk down" such people and getting shot in the process.
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Those cops weren't intelligent, empathic, or strong enough. Just like all the other victims of murderers, it's their own fault.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
LaPierre made his claim just after a similarly mentally ill kid killed a couple dozen first graders in a very similar situation.

LaPierre did not make the distinction you are claiming his statement applied to.
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I am not claiming anything lady . . . . good job with reading comprehension.

My point was that this guy was likely misguided, mentally unstable, and many other adjectives, but bad guy maybe not . . . after all he said he felt like no one loved him and when this lady said she did he was able to be talked down.

That doesnt sound like a bad guy to me, not in the same league as bad guys who really want to hurt others and dont care . . . . right? Does that not make sense? Does this have to be an argument about Wayne La Piere? Where did I mention him? Ohh thats right I did not . . .
 
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tyr_13 said:
Bad guys with guns can sometimes be talked down. That they can't always doesn't disprove that. Bad guys with guns can sometimes only be stopped with other force, that they can't always doesn't disprove that either. It's false dichotomy to say one disproves the other. What is important is to figure out when each is needed and how to use each most effectively.
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I agree with the content and tone of your post.
 
p.s. Long career? In what?

Bikewer said:
...these things don't always work out well.... In my long career I've read a number of accounts of law enforcement officers trying to "talk down" such people and getting shot in the process.
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"A number" means how many, approximately? And could you provide some detail on the most recent account you're aware of?

I read your comment as implying officers had deliberately put themselves at the mercy of an armed subject after eschewing an available option of using force to neutralize an incident. And I can't imagine any jurisdictions are training their officers to do that these days (if they ever did).
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I can't give you any specific examples because currently such an attempt would be against department policy (and common sense). I haven't heard of such a thing in some time and you'll have to forgive my somewhat-foggy memory.
Last one I recall reading about was maybe 20 years ago and involved a small-town officer, possibly a sheriff. Tried to approach a "barricaded" young man who he knew... And the kid shot him.
It's rather because of such incidents that contemporary departments tend to approach these situations quite differently. Trained negotiators, that sort of thing.
 
Tiktaalik said:
I'm no fan of firearms in schools, and I think Ms. Tuff was awesome, but I also think this guy WANTED to be talked out of it. Otherwise he wouldn't have proceeded as he did; he would have been a lot more secretive until he had already begun to kill people. It's not realistic to think this would work in most cases.
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Except how many cases don't make the national news? This one did because it was in an elementary school and school shootings are big news. But I've seen local news stories of smaller events where shooters were talked down.

Major news stories rarely reflect the real picture.
 
theprestige said:
According to Tuff, her religious faith played a big part as well.
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Yeah, she likely belongs to one of the rare Christian churches that actually practice that love 'thy neighbor thing' they preach. Some churches, especially some of the black Christian churches practice a more caring and generous philosophy than a lot of the homophobic, abortion doctor murdering Chriatian churches.



theprestige said:
ETA: I'm now stuck with the mental image of Richard Dawkins trying to talk down a gunman with a sincere display of sympathy.
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You wouldn't be that surprised if you ever met the man. He's incredibly soft spoken, a very calming speaker.
 
Xulld said:
I am not claiming anything lady . . . . good job with reading comprehension.

My point was that this guy was likely misguided, mentally unstable, and many other adjectives, but bad guy maybe not . . . after all he said he felt like no one loved him and when this lady said she did he was able to be talked down.

That doesnt sound like a bad guy to me, not in the same league as bad guys who really want to hurt others and dont care . . . . right? Does that not make sense? Does this have to be an argument about Wayne La Piere? Where did I mention him? Ohh thats right I did not . . .
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Your definition of a bad guy is inconsistent with the facts. Lots of 'bad guys' that kill are also "misguided, mentally unstable, and many other adjectives."
 
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