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Another Question for Heiwa : Amazing Fireproof Steel

This is the question which intrigued Arup and, of course, Edinburgh University. Not that Truthers ever pick that up, what with it requiring serious thought and everything. And it's really the only item open to question in the engineering community. Weird, eh?

One thing the twoofers do not understand is that every engineering department looked at the towers and modeled them with whatever tools they had came to the same conclusion.

Wait conclusion and collusion sound alike!! Proofe
 
AZCat:

What PHYSICAL evidence does NIST have for its hypothesis that fires in the towers heat-weakened the steel sufficiently to initiate total collapse of the buildings?

Whilst I think that Frank is winding us up a bit, I believe he makes a very worthy point. What we have is evidenced by observation and simulation, rather than (say) large quantities of heat-deformed structural work which can be tied to the collapse zone. Nevertheless it is the best working theory we have, and certainly holds a damned sight more water than the alternative theories.
 
AZCat:

You asked about evidence, I ask the same question of NIST.... but particularly with regard to PHYSICAL EVIDENCE, something the last poster apparently fails to understand!

Are you making a point or looking for a discussion?

If the former, I think Architect had a good response a couple of posts upthread. If it is the latter, maybe we should find another thread (either existing or new) although there are lots of other posters here who are better equipped than I to discuss the physical evidence supporting the NIST hypothesis.
 
AZCat: What PHYSICAL evidence does NIST have for its hypothesis that fires in the towers heat-weakened the steel sufficiently to initiate total collapse of the buildings?
So Dr Greening after checking every single page of NIST reports, and checking all available pieces of evidence can not find any physical evidence NIST has for its hypothesis that fires cause the weakening of steel to initiate total collapse of the building. You do understand on floor can only handle 25,000,000 pounds? And that after a floor was overloaded the chances for total collapse are possible as shown by your own paper; albeit not in a single floor failure mode, but another model as you produced?

I find it really disappointing how a PhD in chemistry can not find what a kid in grade school can. I find it interesting that the more I learn about you, the more it seems you lack some basic understanding of the systems involved on 9/11. For instance your lack of understand of NTSB and NIST as shown by your posts.

Now, I have to suspect you have missed the very evidence you are implying NIST lacks. Good luck finding it; I could have some 5th graders help you; plus they have no political bias.

Seroully, if you can not find any evidence for it; then you are not very good at this; however, I have seen reveled in your post you lack a lot of basic knowledge on 9/11 and as I said the systems involved. But I still like your papers as model for time of WTC collapse; it is sure close to the real model. Are you use you are unable to see what is in plain sight?
 
Is he heading for a "death by mod?" This way he can say that he is being silenced by debunkers since he has so little defense and is continuously getting his head handed to him.


As I posted in the A-3 thread:

1706047b1f52055352.jpg
 
AZCat:

Both! I am interested in peoples' opinions about the paucity of physical evidence of high temperature effects on the steel in the WTC fires.

Interestingly, several of the sections of recovered steel that NIST did conclude had seen high temperatues or sulfiding were deemed to have suffered these effects in the rubble pile. I have had direct discussions with some NIST scientists on this point by the way.

So theories are all very nice, but as a Doubting Thomas I want to put my finger in the wound so to speak.
 
Apollo20 gets the chicks

AZCat:

Both! I am interested in peoples' opinions about the paucity of physical evidence of high temperature effects on the steel in the WTC fires.

Interestingly, several of the sections of recovered steel that NIST did conclude had seen high temperatures or sulfiding were deemed to have suffered these effects in the rubble pile. I have had direct discussions with some NIST scientists on this point by the way.

So theories are all very nice, but as a Doubting Thomas I want to put my finger in the wound so to speak.


My opinion on the paucity of physical evidence of high temperature effects on the steel in the WTC fires is that the paucity was engineered. By quickly destroying all but 236 pieces of steel, deception planners destroyed evidence, and condemned analysis to the Purgatory of Computer Simulation. (Good old MAX-MIHOP would have been trivial to falsify had they not gone and spoliated everything.)

Apollo20, I guarantee you a significant proportion of the folks here cannot differentiate between NIST's fire modeling and physical evidence. It's all just a blur to them. Yet - ironically - all they do is clamor for evidence like hungry little robins.


z96951646.jpg
 
Maxwell:

You mean computer simulations, or their "print-outs", aren't physical evidence?

Well I never!
 
Maxwell:

You mean computer simulations, or their "print-outs", aren't physical evidence?

Well I never!

No you have never said what you think happened on 9/11. You have danced and you have spun but you have not had the courage to say what you believe.

Now I know that airplane damage, fire and gravity brought down the towers how about you?
 
On the debunkers thread, Heiwa has suggested that one of the underlying flaws in the NIST collapse report is the steelwork would be inherrently resistant to heat-induced failure under typical fire conditions.

The purpose of this thread is to provide Heiwa with an opportunity to post the evidence for this quite remarkable claim.

Just to kick things off, let's look at how steelwork responds to fire. Heiwa, I'd like you to tell me if there are any errors that I make. And be specific.

Testing Criteria

Firstly, the lay reader may be interested to learn that there are, of course, formal standards to test the fire performance of structural steelwork.

The general procedures used for determining the fire resistance of load-bearing elements of structure are specified in BS476 series. In assessing the performance of fire protection materials the relevant parts are:​

Part 20 Method of determination of the fire resistance of elements of construction (general principles)​

Part 21 Method of determination of the fire resistance of load-bearing elements of construction​

Whilst BS 476 Part 20 is concerned with general principles and covers requirements which are common to the other parts of BS 476, the BS 476 Part 21 fire resistance testing covers load-bearing elements of construction, such as steel beams, columns or walls, whilst BS 476 Part 22 fire resistance tests are intended for non load-bearing elements of construction.​

European fire testing standards have also been published. In assessing the performance of fire protection materials the relevant part is presently ENV 13381-4 “Test methods for determining the contribution to the fire resistance of structural members Part 4: Applied protection to steel members”. This standard makes reference to the EN 1363 Series of standards which contain general information about conducting fire resistance tests. However, as all the procedures for assessing fire protection are currently specified in ENV13381-4, it is this standard which is generally referred to in this publication. ​

Performance of Steel in Fires​

Hot finished carbon steel begins to lose strength at temperatures above 300°C and reduces in strength at steady rate up to 800°C. The small residual strength then reduces more gradually until the melting temperature at around 1500°C. This behaviour is similar for hot rolled reinforcing steels. For cold worked steels including reinforcement, there is a more rapid decrease of strength after 300°C (Lawson & Newman 1990). In addition to the reduction of material strength and stiffness, steel displays a significant creep phenomena at temperatures over 450°C. The phenomena of creep results in an increase of deformation (strain) with time, even if the temperature and applied stress remain unchanged (Twilt 1988).

High temperature creep is dependent on the stress level and heating rate. The occurrence of creep indicates that the stress and the temperature history have to be taken into account in estimating the strength and deformation behaviour of steel structures in fire. Including creep explicitly within analytical models, is complex. For simple design methods, it is widely accepted that the effect of creep is implicitly considered in the stress-strain-temperature relationships.

For those who require further information or, as the case may be, persuasion regarding the actual performance of steelwork under such conditions we are fortunate that a predictably large numbers of leading bodies have looked at the issue in depth.

http://www.shef.ac.uk/fire-research/..._meetings.html

http://www.corusconstruction.com/page_1416.htm

http://www.bfrl.nist.gov/866/CIB_W14/workprog.htm

http://www.civil.canterbury.ac.nz/fi...rts/KLewis.pdf

Note in particular the strength/temperature/yield grading charts in the final link, which have obvious implications for the structure of any steel framed building exposed to fire conditions.

Practical Implications - Design Codes and Building Regulations

The fire design codes BS 5950-8, Eurocode 3 Part 1-2 and Eurocode 4 Part 1-2 provide the framework for designers to calculate the temperature at which a given steel member will fail in a fire situation. These design methods incorporate more realistic estimates of the applied load during a fire and include the effects of non-uniform heating through and along the member. The design methods are based on either fire
resistance, which is a measure of an element to withstand given criteria in a standard furnace test, or natural fires where the size of the fire compartment, available combustible material, characteristics of the compartment boundaries and
​

air supply are considered.

The requirements and calculations so arising are necessarily complex.

As the reader might anticipate, because structural steelwork is at risk of failure in a fire building regulations also introduce fireproofing requirements.

The Scottish Regs, section D, are a bit detailed - http://www.scotland.gov.uk/build_regs/sect-d.pdf - but you'll notice do flag up the need for fire protection in structural components and steelwork.

In England, Part B of the Regs flags up a similar position - its not available on-line free but Corus (who do know a thing about steel) have a useful and relatively non-technical summary at http://www.corusconstruction.com/leg...s_section1.pdf . Some of you will note on page 5 the admission that most unportected steel sections only have fire integrity for about 15 minutes.

The Canadian Regs aren't available on-line free either, but their national buildings institute flags up across all their documents the risk posed by fire and the need for protection - see, by way of example, http://irc.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/cbd/cbd071e.html .

The New Zealand and Australian steel codes, (SNZ, 1997 and SAA 1990) are very similar to each other. The NZ regs section C4 requires....wait for it......structural protection of steel in fire ( http://www.building.govt.nz)


Summary

It is recognised through empirical analysis across a recognised series of standards that structural steelwork weakens significantly under normal fire conditions, and as a consequence codes require additional protection through (for example) the incorporation of passive fire protection systems.

There is no evidence that such tests are wrong, or that fire protection can be safely omitted due to (for example) the efects of heat conduction throughout the affected members.

?? Of course heat affects the properties of steel. Anybody working with steel uses heat to shape it, cuts it apart and welds it together as required. No doubt about that. It's my business.

So a fire up at the top of a building affects the steel structure there! I agree! But why would the building below collapse for that? It, the lower part, is not heated at all. It is intact!

The heated parts up top collapses? Come on! They do not collapse! They deform slowly. Not seen on any videos of course, but let's assume it anyway not to get tazered by some Homeland Security thugs.

Ok, they collapse and the top part above comes dropping down. It is not very heavy by the way! Most of it is air. >90%.

Why would this light top structure destroy an intact, stronger structure below? It is quite strong, isn't it. It kept the upper part in place for >30 years!

Aha, NIST suggests that the little potential energy released above (it dropped a storey) exceeded the total strain energy built into the structure below!

Any evidence for that bold suggestion?

Haven't seen any.

I have asked NIST to clarify the matter several times ... and no response.

Conclusion! Nist cannot explain its own calculations about potential energy released and available strain energy and therefore its proposal is ... just an idea!
 
?? Of course heat affects the properties of steel. Anybody working with steel uses heat to shape it, cuts it apart and welds it together as required. No doubt about that. It's my business.

So a fire up at the top of a building affects the steel structure there! I agree! But why would the building below collapse for that? It, the lower part, is not heated at all. It is intact!

The heated parts up top collapses? Come on! They do not collapse! They deform slowly. Not seen on any videos of course, but let's assume it anyway not to get tazered by some Homeland Security thugs.

Ok, they collapse and the top part above comes dropping down. It is not very heavy by the way! Most of it is air. >90%.

Why would this light top structure destroy an intact, stronger structure below? It is quite strong, isn't it. It kept the upper part in place for >30 years!

Aha, NIST suggests that the little potential energy released above (it dropped a storey) exceeded the total strain energy built into the structure below!

Any evidence for that bold suggestion?

Haven't seen any.

I have asked NIST to clarify the matter several times ... and no response.

Conclusion! Nist cannot explain its own calculations about potential energy released and available strain energy and therefore its proposal is ... just an idea!

It would be nice if you understood the difference between Potential and Kinetic energy.

Hint: Potential is static Kinetic is moving.
 
?? Of course heat affects the properties of steel. Anybody working with steel uses heat to shape it, cuts it apart and welds it together as required. No doubt about that. It's my business.

So a fire up at the top of a building affects the steel structure there! I agree! But why would the building below collapse for that? It, the lower part, is not heated at all. It is intact!

The heated parts up top collapses? Come on! They do not collapse! They deform slowly. Not seen on any videos of course, but let's assume it anyway not to get tazered by some Homeland Security thugs.

Ok, they collapse and the top part above comes dropping down. It is not very heavy by the way! Most of it is air. >90%.

Why would this light top structure destroy an intact, stronger structure below? It is quite strong, isn't it. It kept the upper part in place for >30 years!

Aha, NIST suggests that the little potential energy released above (it dropped a storey) exceeded the total strain energy built into the structure below!

Any evidence for that bold suggestion?

Haven't seen any.

I have asked NIST to clarify the matter several times ... and no response.

Conclusion! Nist cannot explain its own calculations about potential energy released and available strain energy and therefore its proposal is ... just an idea!

Try this little experiment, Heiwa and you will see the difference. Place a bowling ball on top of your head and balance it there, using your hands to steady it. Not so heavy, right? Your head and neck and hands can support it just fine without any pain at all. Now, get a friend and go outside. Have your friend drop the bowling ball* from a 2nd story window onto your head, making sure you have your hands in just the same place as you did before.** Then, have your friend go inside and call the paramedics, because you'll need them.

If you remember doing the experiment at all after you're revived, you'll have learned something about the difference between a static and a dynamic load.

*For added effect, have your friend douse the ball in kerosene and light it before dropping.
**For your own safety, please do not actually attempt.
 
Physics questions for tsig

Tsig:

Since you claim to have a deep understanding of potential energy and kinetic energy please answer these questions:

1. You are sitting in a space capsule of mass M orbiting the earth at a velocity v. The capsule clearly has kinetic energy 1/2Mv^2, but what is its potential energy? Your distinction between KE and PE suggests that the PE is zero,.... but is this correct?

2. A section of steel of mass M = 1 kg is suspended from a crane at a height h = 1 meter above a concrete floor; clearly we can say that the steel section has potential energy Mgh = 1 x 9.8 x 1 = 9.8 Joules. Also, since the steel is not in motion, the kinetic energy of the steel is zero.

Now, using the crane, we very slowly lower the steel section until it is sitting at rest on the concrete floor. The steel section has moved down a distance h in the earth's gravity field and has therefore lost 9.8 Joules of potential energy. The steel is also not moving so the kinetic energy is zero.

The question is: what happened to the 9.8 Joules of potential energy? Where did it go?
 
Tsig:

Since you claim to have a deep understanding of potential energy and kinetic energy please answer these questions:

1. You are sitting in a space capsule of mass M orbiting the earth at a velocity v. The capsule clearly has kinetic energy 1/2Mv^2, but what is its potential energy? Your distinction between KE and PE suggests that the PE is zero,.... but is this correct?

2. A section of steel of mass M = 1 kg is suspended from a crane at a height h = 1 meter above a concrete floor; clearly we can say that the steel section has potential energy Mgh = 1 x 9.8 x 1 = 9.8 Joules. Also, since the steel is not in motion, the kinetic energy of the steel is zero.

Now, using the crane, we very slowly lower the steel section until it is sitting at rest on the concrete floor. The steel section has moved down a distance h in the earth's gravity field and has therefore lost 9.8 Joules of potential energy. The steel is also not moving so the kinetic energy is zero.

The question is: what happened to the 9.8 Joules of potential energy? Where did it go?

The Good Dr. is Tricksy!
 
Tsig:

Since you claim to have a deep understanding of potential energy and kinetic energy please answer these questions:

1. You are sitting in a space capsule of mass M orbiting the earth at a velocity v. The capsule clearly has kinetic energy 1/2Mv^2, but what is its potential energy? Your distinction between KE and PE suggests that the PE is zero,.... but is this correct?

I'd imagine that depends upon your reference frame.


2. A section of steel of mass M = 1 kg is suspended from a crane at a height h = 1 meter above a concrete floor; clearly we can say that the steel section has potential energy Mgh = 1 x 9.8 x 1 = 9.8 Joules. Also, since the steel is not in motion, the kinetic energy of the steel is zero.

Now, using the crane, we very slowly lower the steel section until it is sitting at rest on the concrete floor. The steel section has moved down a distance h in the earth's gravity field and has therefore lost 9.8 Joules of potential energy. The steel is also not moving so the kinetic energy is zero.

The question is: what happened to the 9.8 Joules of potential energy? Where did it go?

Mechanical Work = Change in Total Energy
Change in Total Energy = (Potential Energy + Kinetic Energy)initial - (Potential Energy + Kinetic Energy)final
 
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Tsig:

Since you claim to have a deep understanding of potential energy and kinetic energy please answer these questions:

1. You are sitting in a space capsule of mass M orbiting the earth at a velocity v. The capsule clearly has kinetic energy 1/2Mv^2, but what is its potential energy? Your distinction between KE and PE suggests that the PE is zero,.... but is this correct?

2. A section of steel of mass M = 1 kg is suspended from a crane at a height h = 1 meter above a concrete floor; clearly we can say that the steel section has potential energy Mgh = 1 x 9.8 x 1 = 9.8 Joules. Also, since the steel is not in motion, the kinetic energy of the steel is zero.

Now, using the crane, we very slowly lower the steel section until it is sitting at rest on the concrete floor. The steel section has moved down a distance h in the earth's gravity field and has therefore lost 9.8 Joules of potential energy. The steel is also not moving so the kinetic energy is zero.

The question is: what happened to the 9.8 Joules of potential energy? Where did it go?

Into the brake of the crane.

Energy can change form In this case it goes from gravity to heat.
 
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