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Another Problem With Big Bang?

Well first of all you are ASSUMING they put out that much energy based on the redshift relationship being right. :)

Second, read the *peer reviewed* paper I linked and quoted regarding observations investigating whether the light from the object has the appearance of having come through the dust that would surely have been encountered in the core region of that type of galaxy. They concluded it had not. Now would you like to post a *peer reviewed* paper to challenge that data based conclusion?

I am no an astronomer, so I will not make a guess. However, I'm sure there will be a response soon, if there has not been already. I suggest you are jumping the gun claiming that "Big Bang is dead".
 
If we drive away from each other in vehicles, we don’t claim we haven’t moved just because we haven’t moved in relationship to our vehicle (even if the vehicles are connected by a stretchable cord :-). Same applies to your "X" scenario. An increased or decreased of space (distance) between objects is exactly what movement is. You say that “the expansion of space creates the illusion of motion”. You don’t seem to be saying that it also gives the illusion of increased distance when there is none. In fact you say that things are further apart (increased distance). But that this is not because they have moved apart, it's because there is more space between them. Essentially you are saying that things can change there relative positions without undergoing any movement. With the lack of further explanation, this seems totally ludicrous to me.

Do you make any distinction between the terms "space" and "distance"? If so, what is it?


If we drove away in cars, then each of us would say, "I am not moving relative to my car." But we WOULD say, "I am still moving relative to my X". The X-marks are fixed, known locations. I chose the X-marks because they were attached to the rubber sheet (so you could separate your own peculiar motion from the behavior of the sheet itself).


I am exactly saying that things can change their relative positions without undergoing any movement (for example, without any rockets firing)! I know this sounds completely idiotic and paradoxical, and I feel your pain. However, this is only paradoxical if you insist on Euclidean ideas of motion and distance. We must replace these ideas with ideas of distance and motion based on special (and general) relativity.

Under relativity, we must choose a metric, a way of assigning distances in space and time. It turns out that the metric used to describe cosmology allows distances themselves to change with time. This change in distance is not due to any motion on the part of any objects, but just a fundamental aspect of the metric used to assign coordinates.

Here is the essential statement of the metric used in cosmology:
Distance itself is a dynamical quantity that changes with time.

So, there are two ways for objects to be farther apart:
1) They can fire up rockets engines and move apart.

-or-

2) Just wait around, since distance is a dynamical object. Distance is a thing that changes with time. If at one time we measure our distance to be 5 meters, we are not guaranteed that this will remain 5 meters forever! You are guaranteed this in Euclidean geometry, but not relativity. In Euclidean geometry, the only way to make the distance bigger is to move around. Not so in relativity. Period. End of story. Some day in the future, we could measure our distance to be 10 meters, but not because we have moved, but because, fundamentally, distance itself changes.


I know that this sounds crazy. But, you don't just have to go with it because lots of smart people have thought of it before, but because there is direct observational evidence for this! The wikipedia article on the expansion of space has a good description of the evidence:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metric_expansion_of_space

The idea of expanding space comes from general relativity, based on only a couple assumptions. So, if you test GR, and test the assumptions, you end up testing if this expansion of space occurs. Also, you can make predictions for the redshift of objects based on this idea of expanding space, and test that. All in all, it's a pass.

Relativity (and especially increasing distance without motion) is non-intuitive. I know. It's hard to wrap your brain around it. It sometimes keeps me up late at night. Our stupid monkey brains did not evolve to deal with these kinds of concepts. It doesn't make sense. But mother nature is under no obligations to make sense! You can only make predictions and test against nature. If they are right they are right, and you move on.

Cheers,
TV's Frank
 
Speaking of predictions...BeAChooser, please provide the 4 numbers that plasma cosmologists should have calculated to describe these fundamental aspects of our universe. Here is your perfect opportunity to demonstrate that plasma cosmology is a viable theory, and not just a bunch of plausible-sounding ideas.

-If these numbers are published, just give me a reference.

-If these numbers are calculated but unpublished, please give me references anyway, and the reasons why they are unpublished/refused publication. Maybe we can figure out any mistakes or hidden assumptions in the calculations, and re-submit them. (Please remember I am just asking about these 4 numbers, thus I do not need any references to "The Big Bang Never Happened" or any websites you have already mentioned, which I believe do not contain these numbers).

-If these numbers have not been calculated in the 40+ years of plasma cosmology, then....well, why haven't they? Like I said, a whole bunch of competing cosmological models had people clamoring to make these predictions, because if they were right they would win the Nobel (or at least be famous)! These should not be difficult calculations, and even "back of envelope" estimates should give you an idea if you're even on the right track or not.

This entire discussion is moot until you provide these 4 numbers, so we can test this theory against observations.

Cheers,
TV's Frank
 
How long have you physicists been trying to create a sustained nuclear fusion reaction? Fifty years? And have you succeeded? (sarcasm)
Considering that a sustained fusion reaction requires extremely high temperatures and pressures, recreating those on the surface of the Earth is something of a problem.

In the interior of stars, not so much.
 
Thanks for your comments. I believe I have a reasonable understanding of Relativity, but a poor acceptance of it. I get annoyed when people imply that to gain an understanding of something automatically means you will accept it. It’s saying “What I know is correct, and when you know what I know, you will agree with me”. Of course I realise that Relativity, and the point TV’s Frank is making, have been studied for many years by many educated, clever people. This obviously means that their conclusions are far more likely to be correct than mine. I can only “call it as I see it” however. This doesn’t mean I have to fully understand everything to believe it, but if something is claimed that is extraordinary, it requires extraordinary proof. The claim that objects can change their relative positions with any movement is an extraordinary claim as far as I‘m concerned. Changing relative positions is movement.


I just hadn't seen special (or general) relativity brought into the conversation, and thought it might clear up some of the confusion. Whether or not you accept it is of course a completely different conversation. :)

I think TV's Frank described how it all ties into distance calculations very well in his previous post to you. One of the issues is that you are asking for descriptions without any math, and any non-math description will be at best an analogy, which is often unacceptable at face value (just look at all the hoo-ha over quantum mechanics for example!). I can't speak for everyone who has studied this, but once you have actually worked through the equations for yourself, it makes logical sense, if not intuitive sense. I know I am not smarter than the average bear, so it really did take a full run-down of the maths before I could accept it.
 
I just hadn't seen special (or general) relativity brought into the conversation, and thought it might clear up some of the confusion. Whether or not you accept it is of course a completely different conversation. :)

I think TV's Frank described how it all ties into distance calculations very well in his previous post to you. One of the issues is that you are asking for descriptions without any math, and any non-math description will be at best an analogy, which is often unacceptable at face value (just look at all the hoo-ha over quantum mechanics for example!). I can't speak for everyone who has studied this, but once you have actually worked through the equations for yourself, it makes logical sense, if not intuitive sense. I know I am not smarter than the average bear, so it really did take a full run-down of the maths before I could accept it.


I would just like to emphasize Hokulele's excellent point here. Many explanations offered in physics do not make intuitive sense, but that does not mean they are wrong! They are wrong only if they contradict observations. A large part of a physicist's training (in my opinion) is spent learning to abandon common sense and develop a mathematics-based intuition of phenomena.

If you're worried that this sounds dodgy, remember that physics has a long, proud tradition of breaking common sense. Example: Galileo's experiments that showed heavier objects do NOT fall faster than lighter ones. This flies in the face of Aristotle's common-sense notion that heavier objects should fall to earth faster than lighter ones. Interestingly, it took almost 2,000 years for anyone to actually go out in the real world and TEST this idea! Science (as we understand it) is not an easy or natural thing for people to do. If it WAS easy, we'd have been doing it for several thousand years, not several hundred!

So, if relativity tells us that distances between objects can change without the objects moving, then so be it. If the predictions match up to reality, then that's just the way things are, irrespective of the way we feel about it.

Cheers,
TV's Frank
 
astronomers have finally been able to see Alfven waves near the Sun and believe they are the reason why the corona is so much hotter than the Sun's surface. Probably has nothing to do with the discussion but I think it's downright awesome.

That has a lot to do with this discussion. Thank's for pointing it out. Let's examine in more detail what they claim:

The corona is mysteriously much hotter than the Sun's visible surface.

First, we have an admission that up till now gravity-only, the-sun-must-be-fusion-powered astronomers couldn't begin to explain why the corona is so much hotter than the Sun's surface.

Scientific American agrees ...

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?chanID=sa003&articleID=B8846D2C-E7F2-99DF-3A324674FBF4FB3D&ref=rss "A central problem in solar physics is why the sun's atmosphere gets hotter as it rises, from about 8,500 degrees Fahrenheit (5,000 kelvins) at the photosphere (solar surface) to more than 1.8 million degrees Fahrenheit (1 million Kelvins) in the corona, which extends for millions of miles. Without an outside force heating the corona, its temperature would plummet, says solar physicist Scott McIntosh of the National Center for Atmospheric Research (NCAR) in Boulder, Colo."

The article you link continues:

One idea is that the corona is heated by magnetic ripples called Alfvén waves. These waves – which had been observed in the solar wind but never in the corona – are vibrations of the Sun's magnetic field lines.

Alfven wrote in a letter to Nature in 1942 stating "If a conducting liquid is placed in a constant magnetic field, every motion of the liquid gives rise to an E.M.F. which produces electric currents. Owing to the magnetic field, these currents give mechanical forces which change the state of motion of the liquid. Thus a kind of combined electromagnetic-hydrodynamic wave is produced." In short, an Alfvén wave is a wave that occurs in a plasma due to the interaction of the magnetic fields and electric currents within it. This is not inconsistent with the Electric Sun model.

Calling the mass of +ions flowing out of the sun a "wind" obscures an essential part of the phenomena that is occurring. The Alfven waves are indicative of electric currents flowing in a plasma filament where the field aligned currents flow in parallel to the magnetic fields. This is plasma cosmology, folks. This is not inconsistent with Electric Sun model.

There is a problem with thinking these observations have solved the dilemma of the Corona temperatures facing the fusion-powers-the-sun proponents.

http://space.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn12564&feedId=space_rss20 "The waves Tomczyk's team has observed appear to carry too little energy to account for the heating of the corona, by a factor of at least 10,000."

A factor of 10,000! Maybe that's an indication they still do not grasp what is really going on.

The various articles on this discovery lead me to believe even the researchers don't have an appreciation of why they are called Alfven waves, what a towering figure he was, and what else Alfven believed. Alfven predicted field-align currents in 1939 based on work by Kristian Birkeland. He predicted Alfven waves in 1942. That prediction led to the development of his theory of magnetohydrodynamics, which resulted in a Nobel Prize in physics in 1970. He predicted astrophysical double layers in 1958. They have subsequently been discovered in magnetospheres, the Sun, and other places. Recent research seems to show evidence of astrophysical occurrences of critical ionization velocity which would confirm Alfven's prediction of that in 1942. Yet, the astrophysicists continue to ignore his conclusions about what it all means.

I think Wal Thornhill sums the situation up best:

http://www.tim-thompson.com/thornhill.html "When it comes to identifying grey areas in the standard model, they are legion. The greyest of all is the source of the energy to hypothetically support the sun against gravity. As Parker & Rolfs wrote in their paper, Nuclear Energy Generation in the Solar Interior, "...we may be forced toconclude that after more than 60 yr, we still have only qualitative evidence for thermonuclear reactions in the solar interior." (Solar Interior and Atmosphere, 1991, Cox, Livingstone & Matthews, Editors, p.33). Helioseismology is supposed to be the new tool to unravel what is going on inside the sun. Yet here is another grey area. The fundamental question of what causes the oscillations is unanswered by the standard model: "Another unclear problem is that any oscillation must be triggered: the flute does not produce music unless one blows in it, so to speak. Therefore one is led to the question: who is blowing the pipe?", Pecker, The Global Sun, ibid, p.21. Electrical discharges are inherently very noisy. If the granulations in the photosphere do represent the tops of gigantic electrical discharges (as suggested by another unexplained phenomena in the standard model - the filaments of penumbrae), then there should be a constant barrage of explosive pressure waves directed downward, sufficient to set the sun ringing like a bell. Another grey area is the high temperature of the solar corona. The latest reports are coming down in favour of transfer of energy from within the sun by "magnetic reconnection" rather than Alfven waves. But magnetic reconnection in a plasma is, in my opinion, a euphemism for an electrical discharge phenomena. The unwillingness of astrophysicists to deal with first order (electric current) implications of second order (magnetic) effects is quite striking. Of course, the generation of the solar magnetic field by a solar dynamo is another very grey area. DeLuca and Gilma, The Solar Dynamo, ibid, p.303, write "In closing, we remark that, after many years through which the prevailing opinion was that the problem of the solar dynamo was "solved" by mean field electro-dynamics applied to the bulk of the solar convection zone, new observational and theoretical results have now overturned that belief, leading to a stimulating new period of proliferation of solar dynamo theories." The motions inside the sun suggested by helioseismology have generally conflicted with models of the solar dynamo. The more recent discovery that the magnetic field lines near the poles of the sun are evenly spaced rather than crowding together like a normal dipole field, actually fits the model of the sun being a focus for an electric discharge. In that model, the field lines trace the current flow and are evenly spaced because of the short range repulsion of Birkeland currents. The filamentary nature of most of the phenomena above the photosphere is characteristic of Birkeland currents in a plasma. Another grey area is that of the acceleration of the solar wind. Withbroe, Feldman & Ahluwalia, The Solar Wind and its Coronal Origins, ibid, p. 1094, write: "Finally, we still do not know how the coronal plasma in these regions [coronal holes] is heated and accelerated to form the solar wind; the coronal heating mechanism is unknown and there are uncertainties as to the role of wave-particle interactions in accelerating the solar wind." The electrical model of the sun has a simple plausible qualitative explanation for most, if not all, of the features we see on and above the photosphere. On the other hand, the standard model seems to rely on ever more complex ad-hoc and disjoint theories to wind up with a grey, murky picture which is supposed to provide us with a standard by which to measure all stars. The electrical model lends itself to laboratory simulations which should quickly show its worth. Anyone who scans the journals of plasma physics will see that this approach is essential since the papers are littered with caveats that anode and cathode behaviour in electrical discharges are poorly understood."
 
I would just like to emphasize Hokulele's excellent point here. Many explanations offered in physics do not make intuitive sense, but that does not mean they are wrong! They are wrong only if they contradict observations. A large part of a physicist's training (in my opinion) is spent learning to abandon common sense and develop a mathematics-based intuition of phenomena.

If you're worried that this sounds dodgy, remember that physics has a long, proud tradition of breaking common sense. Example: Galileo's experiments that showed heavier objects do NOT fall faster than lighter ones. This flies in the face of Aristotle's common-sense notion that heavier objects should fall to earth faster than lighter ones. Interestingly, it took almost 2,000 years for anyone to actually go out in the real world and TEST this idea! Science (as we understand it) is not an easy or natural thing for people to do. If it WAS easy, we'd have been doing it for several thousand years, not several hundred!

So, if relativity tells us that distances between objects can change without the objects moving, then so be it. If the predictions match up to reality, then that's just the way things are, irrespective of the way we feel about it.

Cheers,
TV's Frank
You claim that the X’s are “fixed, known locations” when they are obviously moveable locations on a stretchable (movable) rubber sheet. I don’t accept Relativity so I don’t accept that something can stretch with out moving. I realise however that yourself, and many others, do.

It seems to me that the theories of GR/SR are predominately founded on mathematics and impossible analogies. It also seems that answers to support the theories are more created to fit, rather than discovered. There certainly seems to be a lot of effort put in to looking for supportive answers.

Mathematics is a very useful abstract tool that can be abstractly applied to reality. That a thing can be expressed mathematically doesn’t necessarily mean that it has, or can have, existence in reality. Mathematics certainly doesn’t create reality. Anyone who thinks it does has made mathematics their god. To abandon common sense in favour of mathematics-based intuition is placing far too much faith in mathematics in my opinion.

I cringe when a person such as Richard Feynman boldly claims “I can draw a triangle that has three 90 degree angles”. Then draws what he apparently claims to be a triangle on the surface of a sphere. A triangle consists of three straight lines. It’s impossible to draw a straight line on the curved surface of a sphere. It’s impossible therefore to draw a triangle on the surface of a sphere.

I know enough about Relativity to answer my own questions with “Relativity answers”. As I don‘t accept Relativity however, I don’t accept the answers it provides. I don’t accept Relativity based on what I believe to be common sense. I am not obliged to disprove Relativity or offer an alternative.

I apologise to BeAChoser if this discussion has derailed his/her thread.
 
When something with an electric charge falls into a BH it emits radiation. This is obvious and known from the beginning of the theory.

Astrophysicists are not claiming the jets of matter and radiation seen coming from regions they claim contain black holes are coming from the black hole itself. The classic theory of black holes is that nothing escapes the event horizon. What they are claiming is that falling matter is heating up to high temperatures and emitting radiation and charged matter that create magnetic fields.

But then any process that can heat matter to high temperatures (like a Birkeland current z-pinch, for instance) can do that. We know that Birkeland currents exist since they've been created in labs here on earth and precisely modeled with computers using physics that are well proven. There is a plausible model, built with proven physics, for why they would be produced by galaxies and and stars. It is a model that when run in large computer simulations produces the jets that are observed with the characteristics that are observed.

On the other hand, we don't know that black holes exist. They are only inferred from mathematics taken to the breaking point and from observations that plasma cosmologists can explain by other more mundane means. Our readers might be surprised to learn that until recently, black hole theorists didn't even know what the jets were made of (http://www.nasa.gov/centers/goddard/news/topstory/2006/swift_blazars.html ) even though plasma physicists had told them what the jets were made of decades ago. As the above link notes "Black hole jets are one of the great paradoxes in astronomy," said Rita Sambruna of NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center, Greenbelt, Md. "How is it that black holes, so efficient at pulling matter in, can also accelerate matter away at near light speed? We still don't know how these jets form, but at least we now have a solid idea about what they're made of."

And there are more puzzles about black holes cropping up every day.

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/heavy_blazar_040628.html " A team of astronomers have found a colossal black hole so ancient, they're not sure how it had enough time to grow to its current size, about 10 billion times the mass of the Sun. Sitting at the heart of a distant galaxy, the black hole appears to be about 12.7 billion years old, which means it formed just one billion years after the universe began and is one of the oldest supermassive black holes ever known. The black hole, researchers said, is big enough to hold 1,000 of our own Solar Systems and weighs about as much as all the stars in the Milky Way. "The universe was awfully young at the time this was formed," said astronomer Roger Romani, a Stanford University associate professor whose team found the object. "It's a bit of a challenge to understand how this black hole got enough mass to reach its size."

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/astronomy/v4641_microquasar_000114.html "The dramatic tantrum last fall from an often-overlooked star has betrayed the existence of the nearest black hole yet discovered in the Milky Way -- one that should be put in a class all its own, a team of astronomers announced Friday. The black hole, which is associated with a visible star called V 4641, is being called a micro-quasar because it exhibited for a few days in September the brilliant behavior associated with quasars. It sent out tremendous bursts of X-ray radiation and shot out jets of plasma at some 90 percent the speed of light, said Robert Hjellming, of the National Radio Astronomy Observatory." Hjellming and colleagues from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology made the announcement here at the meeting of the American Astronomical Society.
Quasars are thought to be black holes billions of times more massive than the sun that lie at the heart of active galactic nuclei. They are extremely energetic X-ray emitters that shoot out tremendous fountains of plasma at velocities approaching the speed of light. These jets stretch for thousands of light-years, puzzling astrophysicists who must struggle to answer how black holes provide the oomph and direction for such powerful columns. Although V 4641 is billions of times smaller than any quasar -- weighing somewhere between three and 10 solar masses -- astronomers who were looking at the object recognized the behavior. Only three other black holes have earned the micro-quasar distinction, but this is the closest one ever seen. ... The startling thing about this object, though, is not its X-ray bursts or its jets, Remillard said. It is the fact that after it burst to prominence, the object dimmed almost immediately. This makes it unique, even among micro-quasars, he said. Generally the X-ray light curve of such objects flares up and then remains very bright for many months. Finally, it begins to dim very gradually. In any typical X-ray binary system, any outburst of visible light associated with an X-ray burst would last even longer than the X-ray emission. The general understanding about such systems is that the black hole has an accretion disk made up of in-falling material swirling around its perimeter. This material becomes superheated as it approaches the inner ring of the disk and emits X-rays. The material further out in the disk would be heated by the X-rays streaming from the inner ring, and would give off a hot glow of visible light. But V 4641 doesnt do this. Bucking the formula again, the objects visible light became intensely bright, then dimmed almost immediately even before the main X-ray event began.

But plasma cosmologists don't have problems with observations like these. They fit right into the model that they developed decades ago.

http://www.physorg.com/news102172978.html "Neutron stars join the black hole jet set, June 27, 2007 ... snip ... This detection shows that the unusual properties of black holes - such as presence of an event horizon and the lack of an actual surface - may not be required to form powerful jets."

Where have these astronomers been? Plasma physicists demonstrated in the laboratory with plasma focus devices and computer models decades ago that black holes weren't necessary to create these jets. See what I mean about the Big Bang astrophysics community being blind to anything that doesn't involve gravity, folks?

Tell me, Yllanes, how does Big Bang gravity-only physics explain Herbig Haro objects, otherwise known as "jetted stars"? The February 2006 Astronomy Picture of the Day said "though such energetic outflows are well known to be associated with the formation of young stars, the exact cause of the spiraling structures apparent in this case is still mysterious." Well, it's not mysterious to the advocates of plasma cosmology and hasn't been for decades.

Quote: ... snip ... they violate what we know from a 100 years experience to explain how black holes throw matter and energy out in jets.

This is false, show me when they do that.

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/blackhole_jets_040817.html "17 August 2004 ... snip ... black holes are complex beasts. Among their mysterious traits are intense jets of matter that sometimes shoot out from the rotational poles at nearly light-speed. The jets are the result of some really twisted physics, according to a new computer model. ... snip ... One idea is that the spinning of the black hole drags space and time, which twists magnetic field lines and generates a coiled force akin to what allows Tigger to bounce on his tail. ... snip ... Plasma, a superheated gas considered the fourth state of matter, infuses the inner part of a galaxy. Some of it spins into a fairly flat disk around the equatorial region of the central black hole as it gets sucked inward. "The plasma takes weak strands of magnetic field along for the ride, depositing them near the black hole," Punsly said in an e-mail interview. This accumulation of magnetized plasma creates a strong magnetic field near the black hole. The lines arc outward like rigid strings that can be envisioned as the skeletal remains of giant space pumpkin. Plasma tends to stick to field lines, effectively forming strings of plasma. "Plasma sticks to them for the same reason that iron filings trace out a magnetic line of force around a magnet," Punsly said in an e-mail interview. At the heart of the galaxy, all this gets very interesting. "The strings wind around the black hole." But this is no simple winding action. The black hole is spinning very fast, and according to Einstein it drags space-time with it. Very close to the black hole, the magnetic field is dragged, "twisting up the strings like a corkscrew," Punsly said. Then it all comes rather undone as the contorted setup propagates out along the black hole's rotational axis, taking the plasma with it."

Alfven would be spinning and twisting in his grave at this description of plasma, magnetic fields and their behavior. "Plasma takes weak strands of magnetic field along for the ride"? "Plasma tends to stick to field lines, effectively forming strings of plasma." That is utter nonsense.

Continuing from the above source: "Roger Blandford, a California Institute of Technology professor who has been theorizing about black hole jets since the 1970s, said the idea that a rotating black hole directly drags the magnetic field, thus accelerating the plasma, is probably the current leading theory for how the jets are produced. "However, the specifics are controversial," he said. And Blandford and others say there are at least two other processes that could be at work. The orbiting disk of material coming into the black hole might drag the magnetic field, launching jets from the accretion disk, not from near the hole, explained David Meier, an astrophysicist at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory who has also modeled black hole jet formation on computers. Or perhaps the black hole drags the disk around, which drags the field around, and thereby indirectly accelerates the jet. "The field is still very much up in the air," Meier told SPACE.com."

In short, they haven't got a clue what they are talking about.

Here's another example of how clueless these astrophysicists are:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2002/06/020604073033.htm "June 4, 2002, Black Hole Dynamo May Be Cosmos' Ultimate Electricity Generator, Science Daily — ALBUQUERQUE, N.M., June 3, 2002 - Researchers at the U.S. Department of Energy's Los Alamos National Laboratory believe that magnetic field lines extending a few million light years from galaxies into space may be the result of incredibly efficient energy-producing dynamos within black holes that are somewhat analogous to an electric motor. ... snip ... By interpreting radio waves emanating from the gigantic magnetic fields, the researchers were able to create pictures of the fields as they extended from an object believed to be a black hole at the center of a galaxy out into regions of intergalactic space. Because the class of galaxies they studied are isolated from other intergalactic objects and gas - which could warp, distort or compress the fields - the fields extend a distance of up to ten million light years. The energy in these huge magnetic fields is comparable to that released into space as light, X-rays and gamma rays. In other words, the black hole energy is being efficiently converted into magnetic fields. The mechanism is not yet fully understood, but Kronberg and his colleagues believe a black hole accretion disk could be acting similarly to an electric motor. Colgate and Los Alamos colleagues Vladimir Pariev and John Finn have developed a model to perhaps explain what is happening. They believe that the naturally magnetized accretion disk rotating around a black hole is punctured by clouds of stars in the vicinity of the black hole, like bullet holes in a flywheel. This, in turn, leads nonlinearly to a system similar to an electric generator that gives rise to a rotating, but invisible magnetic helix. In this way, huge amounts of energy are carried out and away from the center of a galaxy as a set of twisted magnetic field lines that eventually appear via radio waves from luminous cloud formations on opposite sides of the galaxy."

Alfven proposed exactly this model, sans the black hole because it wasn't needed, nearly 30 years ago. Where were these researchers? They think they invented something and should get a Nobel for it? :D And notice, they call what's out there "gas", forgetting that 99% of it is plasma. Talk about clueless. But it gets better. Let me continue from the above article:

"The Los Alamos researchers are calculating methods by which enormous amounts of expelled magnetic energy are converted into heat - manifested in the form of a relativistic gas of cosmic rays that create radio energy that can be detected by radio telescopes such as the Very Large Array. Although the exact mechanism is still a mystery, the Los Alamos researchers believe that a sudden reconnection or fusing of the magnetic field lines creates and accelerates the cosmic rays. The researchers still don't understand why this fast magnetic field reconnection occurs. "

That's because it doesn't. Hannes Alfven, a Nobel Prize winner in the field ... the man who invented magnetohydrodynamics ... proved years ago that "magnetic field reconnection" is a fairy tale. He said anyone claiming it should be ignored ... dismissed ... because they don't know what they are talking about. Perhaps they really should be ignored.

So NOW do you see what I mean about those promoting black holes violating known and well understood laws of physics? Or are you going to continue to stick your head in the ground?

Quote:
"Basically, as you're dumping material on, it's spiraling in, and that tends to tangle up the magnetic fields," Eikenberry said. "What may happen is, once you get the magnetic field too tangled, it will just reconnect suddenly," he offered. "It'll just sort of untangle itself and, in doing so, release a whole lot of energy."
which are a simplified explanation for laymen are not enough. The real papers do not use that kind of language, but derive actual formulas from Maxwell's equations.

Now you are just lying. Because as I showed above, even the researchers admit they don't understand "magnetic reconnection". And it's not just a simplified explanation for laymen. As I pointed out earlier, astrophysicists even held a whole conference on it.

There is much talk about astronomers violating the equations in your post but not a single trace of evidence.

I tell you what, post ONE source where they demonstrated magnetic reconnection happening in a laboratory on earth. Just one. Surely you can do that if this is physics based on Maxwell's equations. :D

Quote:
Second, it appears that the reason given for the Big Bang not becoming a Black Hole is "it is expanding rapidly near the beginning". Are they talking about inflation? Because if they are, they are using a gnome to explain the problem away.

They are pointing out how the Big Bang is different from the astrophysical black holes.

But what makes the singularity expand rapidly at the beginning. Sure you can put this in words us laymen will understand.

I said from the beginning that current theory cannot explain the initial singularity (that's why it's called a singularity).

So once again, we have another magical gnome to add to all the others. :)

The moment of the singularity is not part of the theory.

The moment of the singularity is not part of the Big Bang. But I thought Cuddles claimed that anything after that moment wasn't part of the theory. Perhaps you two should consult one another. :)

And here's another quandary for you having to do with black holes, folks.

If the electric model for stars is correct (and it seems to be the only one that actually explains the observations), stars will be charged bodies. But according to what I've read, physicists do not expect that black holes with a significant electric charge will be formed in nature because the electromagnetic repulsion would be about 40 orders of magnitude greater than the gravitational attraction. That makes sense. So how would a black hole formed by stars (that is part of the theory, right?) even form? Maybe if astrophysicists had answered the question of what really powers the sun, they'd have not fallen into the Black Hole trap (where they have to propose it's presence in nearly every body they see) in the first place. :D
 
You claim that the X’s are “fixed, known locations” when they are obviously moveable locations on a stretchable (movable) rubber sheet. I don’t accept Relativity so I don’t accept that something can stretch with out moving. I realise however that yourself, and many others, do.
The sheet represents space-time, and the Xs are fixed points in space-time. The objects don't move through space-time, space-time expands "beneath" them.

Whether or not you accept relativity is moot. It has made a huge number of predictions, all of which have turned out to be accurate.

It seems to me that the theories of GR/SR are predominately founded on mathematics and impossible analogies. It also seems that answers to support the theories are more created to fit, rather than discovered. There certainly seems to be a lot of effort put in to looking for supportive answers.
No. For instance, the bending of light by gravity, the expansion of the Universe, the slowing down of clocks on orbital satellites, were all predicted by relativity and discovered afterwards.

Mathematics is a very useful abstract tool that can be abstractly applied to reality. That a thing can be expressed mathematically doesn’t necessarily mean that it has, or can have, existence in reality. Mathematics certainly doesn’t create reality. Anyone who thinks it does has made mathematics their god. To abandon common sense in favour of mathematics-based intuition is placing far too much faith in mathematics in my opinion.
Except that common sense is often wrong. And if all the observations match the predictions made by a theory, then no matter how apparently nonsensical the theory it works and makes accurate predictions, which is the mark of a good theory.

I cringe when a person such as Richard Feynman boldly claims “I can draw a triangle that has three 90 degree angles”. Then draws what he apparently claims to be a triangle on the surface of a sphere. A triangle consists of three straight lines. It’s impossible to draw a straight line on the curved surface of a sphere. It’s impossible therefore to draw a triangle on the surface of a sphere.
That's down to your inability to understand or see any geometry other than that in a flat Euclidean space. For instance, draw an equilateral triangle with sides of 1cm, and the angles will be 60o. Draw another one with sides of 1000km on the Earth's surface and measure the angles. Are they still 60o? If not, then why not? What did you do differently?

I know enough about Relativity to answer my own questions with “Relativity answers”. As I don‘t accept Relativity however, I don’t accept the answers it provides. I don’t accept Relativity based on what I believe to be common sense. I am not obliged to disprove Relativity or offer an alternative.
If you're going to argue against a well established theory that has been shown time and again to have extremely good predictive power, then yes, you do have to provide an alternative.

As I said before, common sense is often wrong.

How do you explain the expansion of the Universe, the bending of light by gravity, the slowing of clocks on orbital satellite and the orbit of Mercury with common sense?
 
That's down to your inability to understand or see any geometry other than that in a flat Euclidean space. For instance, draw an equilateral triangle with sides of 1cm, and the angles will be 60o. Draw another one with sides of 1000km on the Earth's surface and measure the angles. Are they still 60o? If not, then why not? What did you do differently?
I don’t have much time at present so I will just quickly answer this piece.

I stick with my claim that a triangle cannot be drawn on a curved surface. Unless there is a sufficiently large flat facet on the surface of the earth, a triangle with 1000km sides cannot be drawn on it. Size of a curvature doesn’t make it any less a curvature. Flat is flat, curved is curved. You can’t draw a 1cm triangle on a marble for instance. An equilateral triangle will always have three 60 degree angles.

 
I was going to write about your claims on nucleosynthesis and superstructures that would take too long to form, but I have just remembered that Ned Wright's cosmology tutorial does a great job of debunking the book by Eric Lerner.

***********

http://www.bigbangneverhappened.org/p25.htm

"Dr. Wright is Wrong-- a reply to Ned Wright's "Errors in The Big Bang Never Happened"

A number of people have asked me to reply to Ned Wright's critique of the BBN. Observation since the last edition of the book was published in 1992 have only served to make the arguments in it stronger and to further contradict Wright's assertions.

Large Scale Structures

Wright claims that large scale structures in the universe can be created in the time since the Big Bang given the existence of dark (non-baryonic) matter in the right amounts. There are two errors here. Even calculations by advocates of the Big Bang show that the structures we observe would take about 5 times as long as the Hubble time(the hypothetical time since the Big Bang) to form, even with dark matter. And, second, there is no evidence that dark matter exists.

Galaxies are organized into filaments and walls that surround large voids that are apparently nearly devoid of all matter. These voids typically have diameters around 140-170Mpc(taking H=70km/sec/Mpc) and occur with some regularity[E. Saar, et al, The supercluster-void network V: The regularity periodogram", Astr. And Astrophys., vol. 393, pp1-23 (2002)]. These are merely the largest structures commonly observed in present-day surveys of galaxies. Still larger structures exist, but are few in number for the simple reason that they are comparable in size with the scope of the surveys themselves.

Since the observed voids have galactic densities that are 10% or less of the average for the entire observed volume, nearly all the matter would have to be moved out of the voids[F. Hoyle and M.S. Vogeley, "Voids in the Point Source Catalog Survey and the Updated Zwicky Catalog", Astrophys. J., vol 566, pp.641-651, Feb. 20, 2002].

Measurements of the large scale bulk streaming velocities of galaxies indicate average velocities around 200-250km/sec[L.N. Da Costa et al, "Redshift-Distance survey of Early-type galaxies: dipole of the velocity field' Astrophys. J., vol 537, ppL81-L84, July 10, 2000], a factor for 5 less than the 1,000 km/sec I conservatively used in my book.

To answer Dr. Wright's objections, let's look at results of large scale structure formation obtained by his colleagues who support the Big Bang, and whose calculations assume that the Big Bang happened.

To give the maximum leeway to the BB theory, we look at work that assumes some explosive mechanism created the voids, which would be much faster than if they were formed by gravitational attraction. For a cold dark matter Big Bang model, the time T in years, of formation of a void R cm in diameter in matter with density n/cm3 and final, present-day, velocity V cm/s is[ J.J. Levin et al, Astrophys J. vol 389, p464]:

T=1.03n-1/4V-1/2 R1/2

For V=220Km/sec, R=85 Mpc and n =2.4x10-7 /cm3 (assuming the ratio of baryons to photons, h=6.14x 10-10), T= 158Gy. This is 11.6 times as long as the Hubble time. Even if we increase n to reflect current assumptions about dark matter being some 6 times as abundant as ordinary matter, we still get 100 Gy, or 7.4 times the Hubble time. This is actually a bit worse than the figure we arrive at by just diving the distance moved by the current velocity, which ends up as 6.3 time the Hubble time.

Detailed computer simulations, which also include the hypothesized "cosmological constant" run into the same contradictions, in that they produce voids that are far too small. Simulations with a variety of assumptions can produce voids as large typically as about 35 Mpc[S. Arbabi-Bidgoli, and V. Muller, arXiv:astrop-ph/0111581 Nov. 30, 2001], a factor of 5 smaller than those actually observed on the largest scales. In addition, such simulated voids have bulk flow velocities that are typically 10% of the Hubble flow velocities[J. D. Schmidt, B.S. Ryden and A.L. Melott, Astrophys. J., vol. 546, pp609-619] which mean that voids larger than 60Mpc, even if they could be produced in Big Bang simulations, would generate final velocities in excess of those observed, and voids as large as 170 Mpc would generate velocities of over 600km/s, nearly 3 times the observed velocities.

Thus even with dark mater AND a cosmological constant, it is impossible for the Big Bang theory to produce voids as large as those observed today with galactic velocities as small as those today. As was true in 1991, the large-scale structures are too big for the Big Bang. They in fact must be far older than the "Big Bang".

The existence of "dark matter"

Dark matter, or "non-baryonic" matter is a hypothetical form of matter different from any observed on Earth but which is nonetheless required by the Big Bang. Current versions of the (ever-changing) theory require that total gravitating matter density be equal to 0.3 of the critical density but that of ordinary, baryon matter be only 0.05 of the critical density. This means that 0.25 of the critical density has to be in the form of some undiscovered, non-baryonic matter, generally described as Wimps, weakly interacting massive particles.

This "cold dark matter" or CDM, was hypothesized as essential for the Big Bang theory back in 1980--23 years ago. Since then physicists have searched diligently with dozens of experiments for any evidence of the existence of these dark matter particle here on Earth. Oddly enough every one of the experiments has had negative results. In fields of research other than cosmology this would have long ago led to the conclusion that CDM does not exist. But Big Bang cosmology does not taken "NO" for an answer. So the failure to find the CDM after so many experiments does not in any way shake the faith of Big Bangers in such CDM. This is evidence that what we are dealing with here is a religious faith, not a scientific theory that can be refuted by experiment or observation.

The idea that neutrinos might form a bath of Hot Dark Matter has also been undermined by experiments that indicate that while neutrinos do probably have some mass, it is of the order of 0.1 eV (energy equivalent), which means that total neutrino mass in the universe is likely to be around one tenth of the mass of ordinary matter.

Wright argues that the existence of dark matter if proved by the difference between the total gravitating mass inferred for galaxies and cluster of galaxies and the mass in observable stars. But this is an absurd non-sequitor. Observations have demonstrated that stars constitute only a small fraction of the total mass of ordinary matter that can be observed. In clusters of galaxies we can observe by X-ray emissions huge clouds of hot plasma, which have masses far greater than that of bright stars.

There is extensive observational evidence for ordinary matter in two other forms that are relatively dim, One is white dwarfs in the halos of spiral galaxies. Recent observations of high proper motion stars have shown that halo white dwarfs constitute a mass of about 10^^11 solar masses, comparable to about half the total estimated mass of the Galaxy [R.A. Mendez and D. Minnitti ,Astrophys. J., vol. 529, p.911; B.R. Oppenheimer et al Science, 292, p. 698]. While these observations have been sharply criticized, they have been confirmed by new observations [R. A. Mendez ,arXiv:astrop-ph/0207569].

Observations of ultraviolet and soft x-ray absorption has revealed the existence of "warm plasma' with a temperature of only about 0.2keV, which amounts to a mass comparable to that of the entire Local group of galaxies.(Nature 421, 719). If we adds up the warm plasma, which is sufficiently dim to be observable only as it absorbs radiation from more dim objects, the hot plasma, and the white dwarfs, we have enough matter to equal that which is inferred by the gravitational mass of cluster of galaxies. So there is no need for non-baryonic matter and there is no room for it either.

Conclusion: the evidence against the existence of non-baryonic"dark" matter is stronger than ever. Ordinary matter is only the only type of matter that exists.

A few points on Wright's misunderstanding of the plasma theory of the CBR

Wright argues that extended radio sources contradict the absorption of radio waves by filaments in the intergalactic medium. He points to Cygnus A and says that no absorbing filaments can be seen. This indicate Wright has not read the relevant papers, which make it clear that the absorbing filaments are quite small by astronomical standards. Except for an initial 1987 paper, where the idea was worked out only in rough way, my elaboration of the hypothesis of absorbing magnetic filaments have made clear that the filaments in general are too small to be observed directly. From the formulae in IEEE Transactions on Plasma Science, Vol.20, pp. 935-938, for example, it can be calculated that filaments that absorb 21 cm radio waves will be no more than 7,000 km in diameter, far too small to be resolved. Wright's arguing that the inability to resolve the filaments shows their nonexistence is similar to arguing that the inability to resolve individual dust particles in a dust storm contradict the idea that dust absorbs light from the sun.

Wright completely ignores the strong observational evidence that radio emission from galaxies does indeed drop off sharply with distance, relative to emission at IR wavelengths [E.J. Lerner, Astrophysics and Space Science, Vol 207, p.17-26], which are too short to be absorbed by the filaments. He offers no alternative explanation for these observations. This is characteristic of BB theorists, who simply ingrown inconvenient observations.

Wright's second objection, that a fractal inhomogenous collection of absorbers would lead to a non-isotropic distortion of radio sources is simply mathematically wrong. Fractal distributions are inhomogeneous in three-space, but their projection on to 2-space, the sky, tend to be isotropic.

However, we would expect some fairly small variations in the CBR because of the inhomogenous IGM--where there is more density of matter, we would expect a slightly brighter CBR. This would only be slight, because scattering and the contribution of the IGM along the same line of sight but at different distance would greatly reduce anisotropies, as described in [E. J. Lerner, Astrophysics and Space Science, Vol.227. p.61-81]

This is what is found. There is indeed a slight correlation between galaxy density and CBR intensity, as expected. What is particularly interesting is that this correlation extends over all angular scales, as would be expected from the plasma viewpoint. But in the BB hypothesis, which assumes the CBR originated BEHIND all clusters of galaxies and other very dense concentrations of matter, interactions with electrons will decrease the CBR luminosity. So there should be an anti-correlation of galaxies and CBR on small angular scales. Just the opposite is observed[Scranton et al, arXiv:astrop-ph/0307335]. The correlation continues to be positive even on small angular scales--as expected in the plasma hypothesis.

In addition, The WMAP results contradict the Big Bang theory and support the plasma cosmology theory in another extremely important respect. Tegmark et al [arXiv:astro-ph/0302496] have shown that the quadruple and octopole component of the CBR are not random, but have a strong preferred orientation in the sky. The quadruple and octopole power is concentrated on a ring around the sky and are essentially zero along a preferred axis. The direction of this axis is identical with the direction toward the Virgo cluster and lies exactly along the axis of the Local Supercluster filament of which our Galaxy is a part.

This observation completely contradicts the Big Bang assumption that the CBR originated far from the local Supercluster and is, on the largest scale, isotropic without a preferred direction in space. Big Bang theorists have implausibly labeled the coincidence of the preferred CBR direction and the direction to Virgo to be mere accident and have scrambled to produce new ad-hoc assumptions, including that the universe is finite only in one spatial direction, an assumption that entirely contradicts the assumptions of the inflationary model of the Big Bang, the only model generally accepted by Big Bang supporters.

However, the plasma explanation is far simpler. If the density of the absorbing filaments follows the overall density of matter, as assumed by this theory, then the degree of absorption should be higher locally in the direction along the axis of the (roughly cylindrical) Local Supercluster and lower at right angles to this axis, where less high-density matter is encountered. This in turn means that concentrations of the filaments outside the Local Supercluster, which slightly enhances CBR power, will be more obscured in the direction along the supercluster axis and less obscured at right angle to this axis, as observed. More work will be needed to estimate the magnitude of this effect, but it is in qualitative agreement with the new observations.

Wright's third objection illustrates the essential sloppiness of Big Bang thinking. He claims that statistics of flux vs number counts contradict the absorption hysptheises. In fact they confirm it. Contrary to Wright's claims that N~ F^^-1.8, where N is the number of sources brighter than F, the actual distribution is quite different. Wright's formula is roughly true ONLY for the very brightest sources, those stronger than about 200mJy. For sources dimmer than that, the relationship is very close to N~F^^-0.82, almost exactly the relationship Wright himself says is predicted by the plasma hypothesis [Windhorst, R., ApJ 405, 498]. Wright either is ignorant of this well-known fact, or deliberately ignores it.

There is no real mystery as to why the brighter sources follow a different relationship. As Sylos Labini et al{Physica A 226,195] demonstrate, for very bright sources, the number-flux relationship is distorted by finite size effects. Put simply, very bright sources or either very close or, if distant and intrinsically bright, very rare. For small volumes there will be too few of these very bright objects--for small enough volumes there will be none of them. As the volume increases to the size at which a fair sample of very bright objects occurs, the apparent density increases. This creates a purely apparent, statistical tendency for a more rapid growth in the number of objects with decreasing flux. The true relationship is only revealed with the more numerous dimmer objects.

A very similar change in the number flux slope occurs in the counts of optical sources, basically galaxies, with one important different. For bright galaxies, the relationship has an exponent of -1.5, but for dim galaxies, the exponent changes to -1.0. That exponent is just what one would expect for a fractal distribution of dimension D=2 with NO absorption. The fact that the radio sources have an exponent of -0.82, not -1.0, implies an absorption almost identical to that hypothesized in the plasma theory of the CBR. Without absorption, one would have to explain why more distant radio sources become systematically dimmer and less numerous compared with optical course--even at distances of tens of Mpc, far too small to be affected by evolutionary effects.

A Brief Note on the Hubble relationship

Wright says that my book endorses Alfven's explanation of the Hubble relationship. But again, that implies that Wright did not even read the book he criticizes. In the book, I present Alfven's, AND several other explanations of the Hubble relationship in the Appendix to the book (which was in both editions), as well as in Chapter 6. I concluded that "the question of the Hubble relationship remains unanswered" (p.279) and that none of the possible explanations were without problems, a conclusion that still stands. However, the one explanation that can be ruled out, because of its many contradictions with observation, is the Big Bang. We are not stuck with the Big Bang by default.

Light element production

In considering the arguments against the BB, Wright entirely ignores the contradictions between observations and BB predictions of light element abundances, pointed out in the preface to my book. These contradictions have only gotten sharper since the book was written (See my new review, Two World Systems--link to that document here).

Big Bang Nucleosynthesis (BBN) predicts the abundance of four light isotopes(4He, 3He, D and 7Li) given only the density of baryons in the universe. These predictions are central to the theory, since they flow from the hypothesis that the universe went through a period of high temperature and density--the Big Bang. In practice, the baryon density has been treated as a free variable, adjusted to match the observed abundances. Since four abundances must be matched with only a single free variable, the light element abundances are a clear-cut test of the theory. In 1992, there was no value for the baryon density that could give an acceptable agreement with observed abundances, and this situation has only worsened in the ensuing decade. The current observations of just three of the four predicted BBN light elements preclude BBN at a level of at least 7 s. In other words, the odds against BBN being a correct theory are about 100 billion to one

Wright's comments on the plasma theory of generating light elements in stars show, again, that he has not read the relevant papers that he is criticizing. He assumes that the distribution of stellar masses in the early formative periods of galactic history are the same as today, when supernovae produce considerable amounts of CNO compared to helium. However, the detailed models and calculations presented in my papers showed that the early galaxies were dominated by intermediate mass stars too small to create supernovae. These stars produce and blow off an outer layer of helium but very little or no CNO is released to the interstellar medium [E.J. Lerner, IEEE Transactions on Plasma Science, Vol. 17, , pp. 259-263].

Similar errors occur in Wright's comments on production of lithium in cosmic rays. Since this occurs when protons in cosmic rays collide with CNO atoms, naturally the abundance of lithium is relatively high in current cosmic rays, give the interstellar medium contains a few percent CNO. But in very young, formative galaxies, where only one ten-thousandth of the current levels of CNO were yet produced, Li production was reduced by a comparable amount. Indeed we find that stars with heavy element abundance 10-4 that of the sun, and a few thousand times less than the ISM, have D/Li ratios that are also a few thousand times less than the 80-to-1 ratio Wright quotes. Typically, he misquotes the ratio of D to Li observed in the oldest stars, which is about 150,000 to 1, not 6 million to 1. But to a true Big Bang believer like Dr. Wright, making an error of a factor of forty in regards to mere observations is no cause of concern. Observations, after all, do not affect faith."

**************

And of course, I could add, just based on the discussion in this thread, a host of facts contradicting the Big Bang gravity-did-it-all theory that Dr Wright simply ignores. I wonder why ...

:D
 
Here's an interesting order-of-magnitude calculation that shows that electromagnetic forces are too weak to even keep the sun in its orbit in the galaxy:

http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~wright/bunn_on_plasma.txt

From the above: "The central tenet of plasma cosmology is that electromagnetic forces, rather than gravity, are responsible for holding together large objects like galaxies."

Too bad this is a false statement, Frank. It's a strawman. And that you don't know this says a lot about your *expertise* on this subject.

You probably also think plasma cosmologists say electromagnetic forces are what hold the planets in their orbits? Right?

And you probably think that gravity-only can explain everything about the angular momentum distribution of the solar system. Right?

What can I do but laugh. ROTFLOL!
 
Hi, BeAChooser, you seem to be pretty quick in responding to questions. So, please find what plasma cosmology predicts for the folllowing 4 numbers.

What TV's Frank doesn't want to talk about is that observations now show Big Bang cosmology's claim that higher redshifts only imply farther distances is wrong. Most of what they claim to be the farthest objects in the universe may be comparatively close. Which makes some of the numbers he thinks he knows wrong.

What he doesn't want to talk about is that the age of certain stars in it (according to mainstream astrophysics theory) is considerably older than Big Bang's *number* for the age of the universe ... even assuming the redshift relationship applies to all objects out there (which it clearly doesn't) and assuming dark energy exists.

What he doesn't want to discuss is that the latest data suggests the CMB isn't behind the galaxy clusters where it should be according to Big Bang cosmology. He ignores that data and just keeps on insisting on numbers that require just the opposite be true to be a meaningful match with his Big Bang theory.

What he doesn't want to discuss is how utterly ridiculous is the Big Bang claim that 96% of all the mass and mass-equivalent in the universe is dark matter and dark energy ... *something* which astrophysicists, after 30 years of expensive search, have completely failed to turn up. Without this immense kludge, their whole model simply collapses. Instead, when further observations suggest those entities don't exist (like the example in this thread's subject article), they immediately add new magical gnomes to the model to explain it instead of doing the logical thing and reexamining their base assumptions.

What he doesn't want to discuss are observations of strings of galaxies that make structures that according to mainstream astronomers could not possibly have formed from gravity in the time the Big Bang community says the universe has existed. Mainstream astronomers are worried ... but not TV's Frank.

He claims that Big Bang predicts the flatness of the universe but doesn't mention all the kludges that have been necessary to make the model fit what we see ... not the least of which is *inflation* which has now been proposed in at least half a dozen flavors.

What he doesn't want to discuss are observations that show the process the Big Bang community claims for the formation of heavy elements isn't correct. How bad is their understanding of stars and how they work? They can't even explain most of the phenomena observed on the surface of the sun without resorting to claims of further magic in the way of new magnetic phenomena that Hannes Alfven and electrical engineers who understand such physics say are nothing more than fantasy ... phenomena that have never been demonstrated in an earth based lab.

What he doesn't want to discuss are problems like these: http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache...t+element+abundance&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=13&gl=us "The Top 30 Problems with the Big Bang, April 2002"

Yet he insists I must provide 4 numbers or he won't debate.

Well so be it ...
 
I don’t have much time at present so I will just quickly answer this piece.

I stick with my claim that a triangle cannot be drawn on a curved surface. Unless there is a sufficiently large flat facet on the surface of the earth, a triangle with 1000km sides cannot be drawn on it. Size of a curvature doesn’t make it any less a curvature. Flat is flat, curved is curved. You can’t draw a 1cm triangle on a marble for instance. An equilateral triangle will always have three 60 degree angles.

Only in a flat, two dimensional Euclidean geometry.

If you want to limit the definition of triangle to that, then it's your problem.
 
Originally Posted by Dancing David
you are assuming that the object is on this side of the galazy.

BeAChooser No, I'm drawing this conclusion based on data and logic.

Another gentleman used logic, and came to the opposite conclusion. That would be in the short analysis provided by the gent at the UCLA link.

David and I were clearly discussing evidence that a quasar in a photo is in front of galaxy and thus closer to us even though the quasar has a much higher redshift than the galaxy. And you say Ted Bunn came to the opposite conclusion? But Bunn said nothing about quasars. He claimed that plasma cosmology claims electromagnetic forces, not gravity, are what hold stars in orbit around galaxies (you can see my comment about that above). If you can't even follow the thread of the discussion, I won't bother with your posts.
 
In fact, there are probably several billion dark matter particles streaming through your body every second. If this seems crazy, at least they have company: another small particle, the neutrino,

Except the time from building the first neutrino detector to finding them was just a few years. And they knew that neutrinos existed because they could observe something missing in particle reactions in labs on earth. And neutrinos can go through LIGHTS YEARS of ordinary matter without interacting yet they still had no trouble finding them quickly. So give us a break, Frank. That comparison holds no water. Dark matter is nothing but desperate speculation inferred from motions that Plasma Cosmologists have already explained using physics that were developed by Maxwell and plasma scientists in the early part of the 20th century ... and that are used on earth all the time.

is generated in fusion reactions in the sun.

Again, an assumption. The truth is that scientists have never observed the inside of the sun and are only guessing at what is going on there. Particles they say should be produced are still missing (and don't think I don't have a response when you come back on this one :) ). And those scientists can't begin to explain what is happening at the surface of and just above the sun without creating new AND BOGUS physics for magnetism. In contrast, plasma cosmologists and electrical engineers have a plausible explanation for everything seen at the surface of and above the sun which relies on physics that is well founded and proven.

Right now, there are detectors operating hoping to catch a rare event with a passing dark matter particle.

Just part of the 30 years they've been looking. ;)
 
BeAChooser, you are absolutely right: I am ignoring just about everything you say! Why? Because I'm not interested in debating you! The correctness of theories is not settled through rhetoric, but through evidence. So, I gave you a simple challenge: promote the merits of plasma cosmology without discussing standard cosmology. Plasma cosmology should be able to stand on its own two feet. We must evaluate the correctness of plasma cosmology based on comparison to observations. This is why I continually ask for those 4 numbers, because we can use those 4 numbers to test the theory.

So, BeAChooser, put up or shut up, as they say. Please provide the 4 numbers requested above, so we may compare against observations and directly test it. Without any comparisons to observations, it is useless to continue.

Cheers,
TV's Frank
 
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Only in a flat, two dimensional Euclidean geometry.

If you want to limit the definition of triangle to that, then it's your problem.
I don’t see that defining limitations to a shape is a problem. In fact I see there would be problems if we didn‘t. For example, let‘s curve the sides of a triangle in a direction so they form a circle. Do we now have a triangle that’s a circle, or a circle that’s a triangle? Both shapes have become indistinguishable. Does Relativity have a limit to the definition of a triangle. If so, what is it. If not, how is it possible to describe it?
 
I don’t see that defining limitations to a shape is a problem. In fact I see there would be problems if we didn‘t. For example, let‘s curve the sides of a triangle in a direction so they form a circle. Do we now have a triangle that’s a circle, or a circle that’s a triangle? Both shapes have become indistinguishable. Does Relativity have a limit to the definition of a triangle. If so, what is it. If not, how is it possible to describe it?

The mathematics behind general relativity do clearly define what a "straight line" means. For example, on the surface of the earth, a straight line between two points is a geodesic (it follows the curve of the earth). Thus a triangle - which is made by connecting three straight line segments - can have interior angles that sum to greater 180 degrees. Each line segment is perfectly straight, on the curved surface of the sphere. Change the geometry and you get different straight lines.

Pay careful attention to my first sentence. This is what mathematics says, i.e., this is just good ol'-fashioned geometry of curved spaces. Relativity could be completely bunk (which it is not, by the way), and this would still be true.

Cheers,
TV's Frank
 

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