Another Mall Shooting

[UnrepentantSinner]

That's seriously like saying "I can't remember any serious blackouts because of there being more than enough electricity."

If a mass murder is prevented, it gets absolutely ZERO attention in the national media. You can't know how many people WOULD HAVE been killed by a gunman who is shot by a private gun owner before he gets to commit his infamous acts! Seriously, think about what you're saying here...

Ack! And I'd just switched my irony meter off and turned my hyperbole meter to maximum.

Are you actually suggesting that if a homicidal manic showed up at a shopping mall with an assault rifle and someone with a concealed carry had popped a cap in him that there would be no coverage what-so-ever in the media? If so, you need to take that sentiment to the CT sub-forum and leave legitimate discussions of issues like guns and mental illness to us with a firm footing in reality.

 

[BPSCG]

Are you actually suggesting that if a homicidal manic showed up at a shopping mall with an assault rifle and someone with a concealed carry had popped a cap in him that there would be no coverage what-so-ever in the media?

See the first link in my post #98 above. Had you ever heard of that incident?

 

[Moochie]

Doesn't rationality go out the window when the almighty "right to bear arms" is questioned?

The Virginia Tech tragedy, like so many others and probably this one, occured when someone who happened to have easy access to powerful semi-automatic weapons just snapped. Yes criminals will get guns-always have-but I am not talking about gang killings. We had mass killings here before the ban on semi-automatic weapons but none after. I do not think this is a coincidence.

Some people on this thread have spoken about how "law abiding" citizens carrying weapons could "take out" a maniac shooting people in a Mall. Funny that I don't recall reading about this. Examples please, and not from the mists of time.

And the idea of people forming a disciplined, well trained and commanded force to combat the army is just laughable.

The British are coming! The British are coming!


M.

 

[Big Les]

Seriously respect your views US, but how do you explain the lack of mass shootings in Australia since the ban of semi-automatics?

And in the UK...

 

[EagleEye]

Ack! And I'd just switched my irony meter off and turned my hyperbole meter to maximum.

Are you actually suggesting that if a homicidal manic showed up at a shopping mall with an assault rifle and someone with a concealed carry had popped a cap in him that there would be no coverage what-so-ever in the media? If so, you need to take that sentiment to the CT sub-forum and leave legitimate discussions of issues like guns and mental illness to us with a firm footing in reality.

No, what I'm saying is that such events would get about .1% of the media coverage that the mass murders get. That's 1/1000th the coverate... That's 2 to 3 minutes on the local evening news, rather than the 4 or 5 hours on CNN, FoxNews, Headline News, etc... The difference is damn near exponential.

 

[Darth Rotor]

It still doesn't make sense to me .

Who cares if it makes sense to you? I certainly don't.

If you don't think it's a good set up, live somewhere else, and count on the sheep dogs to take care of you and the rest of the sheep.

You are likely to be happy. All will be well. Your risk of dying in a mall shooting will be a bit lower than mine, since I live here in the US.

DR

 

[Ranb]

Does anyone actually know what kind of rifle the guy used? Sources such as CNN seem to be writing their stories based upon little knowledge of firearms. For instance they claim the ammunition used was SKS 7.66 millimeter, instead of the more correct 7.62x39. I can only imagine that if the guy actually used an ak-47 (a select fire weapon) he would have had it on full auto and fired at a much higher rate.

It was probably a Romanian WASR-10, Yugo M70, Saiga, SSR 85/99 or another semi-auto clone.

Ranb

 

[Cleon]

Does anyone actually know what kind of rifle the guy used? Sources such as CNN seem to be writing their stories based upon little knowledge of firearms. For instance they claim the ammunition used was SKS 7.66 millimeter, instead of the more correct 7.62x39.

You realize they get that sort of information from the police, right? It's not like CNN has its own CSI unit scouring the crime scene.

 

[Darth Rotor]

You realize they get that sort of information from the police, right? It's not like CNN has its own CSI unit scouring the crime scene.

Aye.

This case seems to be like a few other recent cases, wherein the fellow shot people in the wrong order. The correct order, when suicide is contemplated, is to shoots one's self first.

Damnable American education system, needs to teach ordinal numbering again.

DR

 

[sackett]

Ranb: The police have released pix of the shooter and his weapon. Sounds like a semi-auto AK clone; plenty of those in circulation.

I don't care to see those pictures, or any others, of this event. "What area of the earth is not filled with our calamities?"

 

[BPSCG]

Aye.

This case seems to be like a few other recent cases, wherein the fellow shot people in the wrong order. The correct order, when suicide is contemplated, is to shoots one's self first.

Damnable American education system, needs to teach ordinal numbering again.

DR

"Repeat after me: 'First pillage, then burn, first pillage, then burn...'" --Attila the Hun

 

[Plantfoam]

Yup, if (very hypothetically) guns are effectively outlawed here, I am becoming a Kiwi

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Sports/Hunting-shooting/Rifles/auction-130260193.htm

A good article on NZ regulations

 

[Ranb]

.....A good article on NZ regulations

"There are other endorsements. Under a "C" (collector) endorsement one can buy weapons for a "collection" but none of these may ever be fired."

Ouch! Guns I can buy but not shoot? No thanks.

Ranb

 

[andyandy]

the rationality of otherwise intelligent posters seems to fly out the window when it comes to gun debates.....

I wonder if any common ground is possible? ....

Comparison of U.S. gun homicides to other industrialized countries:
In 1998 (the most recent year for which this data has been compiled), handguns murdered:


373 people in Germany
151 people in Canada
57 people in Australia
19 people in Japan
54 people in England and Wales, and
11,789 people in the United States
(*Please note that these 1998 numbers account only for HOMICIDES, and do not include suicides, which comprise and even greater number of gun deaths, or unintentional shootings).

I wonder if there is any dispute as to these figures - these stats are taken from an anti-gun website - so if there is significant disagreement with these figures we can look at others....

And the next reply tends to be "oh well, but people are murdered in different ways in other countries...." which is fair enough, but looking at international homicide rates

Homicide rate per 100,000 population. Descending rates according to the most recent rates..

2000s
Country Most recent
Jamaica 46.59
Venezuela 42
South Africa 39.5
Colombia 39.3
El Salvador 31.54

[snip]

United States[27] 5.9
[snip]

Sweden 2.39
United Kingdom 2.03
Canada 2.01
France 1.64
England, Wales 1.62
New Zealand 1.29
Australia 1.28
Maldives 1.28
Spain 1.25

[snip]

Japan 0.50

http://www.angelfire.com/rnb/y/homicide.htm

there is a significantly greater homicide rate in the US compared with other industrialised countries. [again if someone has better links to stats, or disputes these stats please let me know]

and then moving on to specific school shootings or other wanton violence with guns

in the US, just from the 1990s

University of Iowa shooting - Iowa City, Iowa, United States; November 1, 1991
Simon's Rock College of Bard shooting - Great Barrington, Massachusetts, United States; December 14, 1992
Lindhurst High School shooting - Marysville, Californa, United States; May 1, 1992
East Carter High School shooting - Grayson, Kentucky, United States; January 18, 1993
Richland High School shooting - Lynnville, Tennessee, United States; November 15, 1995.
Frontier Junior High shooting - Moses Lake, Washington, United States; February 2, 1996
Bethel High School shooting - Bethel, Alaska, United States; February 19, 1997
Pearl High School shooting, Pearl, Mississippi, United States; October 1, 1997
Heath High School shooting, West Paducah, Kentucky, United States; December 1, 1997
Jonesboro massacre - Jonesboro, Arkansas, United States; March 24, 1998
Parker Middle School Shooting - Edinboro, Pennsylvania; April 24, 1998
Thurston High School shooting - Springfield, Oregon, United States; May 21, 1998
Columbine High School massacre - near Littleton, Colorado, United States; April 20, 1999
Heritage High School shooting - Conyers, Georgia, United States; May 20, 1999
Santana High School shooting - Santee, California, United States; March 5, 2001
Granite Hills High School shooting - El Cajon, California; March 22, 2001
Appalachian School of Law shooting - Grundy, Virginia, United States; January 16, 2002
Red Lion Area Junior High School shootings - Red Lion, Pennsylvania, United States; April 24, 2003
Rocori High School shootings - Cold Spring, Minnesota, United States; September 24, 2003
Red Lake High School massacre - Red Lake, Minnesota, United States; March 21, 2005
Campbell County High School shooting - Jacksboro, Tennessee: November 8, 2005
Platte Canyon High School shooting - Bailey, Colorado, United States; September 27, 2006
Weston High School shooting, Cazenovia, Wisconsin September 29, 2006
Amish school shooting - Nickel Mines, Lancaster County, Pennsylvania, United States; October 2, 2006
Virginia Tech massacre - Blacksburg, Virginia, United States; April 16, 2007
Delaware State University shooting - Dover, Delaware, United States; September 21, 2007
SuccessTech Academy shooting - Cleveland, Ohio, United States; October 10, 2007

In that same period in the UK, the only shooting has been

Dunblane massacre - Dunblane, Scotland, United Kingdom; March 13, 1996

after which gun laws were significantly tightened and no further school shootings have occured. Indeed, there have been twenty two shootings/massacres since Dumblane in America - which is really pretty remarkable.

Given the overwhelming data to the contrary it seems difficult to maintain a position that easy access to guns does not play a role in perpetuating school/mall shootings. What is the better explanation for why about 30 shootings/massacres have occured since the nineties in the US to 1 in the UK? Adjusting for population size isn't sufficient. The question is for the pro gun lobby, if it isn't guns that is the factor, then what is?
are americans inherently more violent?
are there a greater number of mentally ill in america?
is it socially more acceptable to commit massacres?

none of those answers seem especially palatable, perhaps someone could suggest another.

 

[Ranb]

You realize they get that sort of information from the police, right? It's not like CNN has its own CSI unit scouring the crime scene.

Yes I know they got their info from the police.

This does not stop a reporter from claiming that an assault rifle is better able to penetrate a cinder block than another type of rifle using the same ammo. I think it was CNN that did this. It was an error in editing and judgement, but it took a while for them to correct themselves.

I really do not expect CNN to get their gun facts right, I was just interested in knowing what kind of rifle was used. If it was a real select fire (registered) AK, then I would be surprised because they are rare here.

Ranb

Edited for clarity. cinder not cider. Thanks BPSCG.

 

[Ranb]

.....and then moving on to specific school shootings or other wanton violence with guns.....

none of those answers seem especially palatable, perhaps someone could suggest another.

I hate to sound too picky, but you included in your list the Kent State shootings. The people at Kent State were shot by the military with military issue rifles. Are there other "state sponsored" shootings on your list? I have not checked the whole thing yet.

I do not think the easy availability of guns is the whole answer. You have to ask yourself, do they kill because they have a gun, or do they kill because they want to kill someone? Even where guns are hard to get, they can be had. I know some criminals want to blame the gun, but that is just a person who does not want to take responsibility for their actions. Blaming the gun is woo.

Ranb

 

[BPSCG]

This does not stop a reporter from claiming that an assault rifle is better able to penetrate a cider block than another type of rifle using the same ammo.

Well, jeeze, after all, it's just a gallon of sweet liquid in a plastic jug...

 

[andyandy]

I hate to sound too picky, but you included in your list the Kent State shootings. The people at Kent State were shot by the military with military issue rifles. Are there other "state sponsored" shootings on your list? I have not checked the whole thing yet.

I do not think the easy availability of guns is the whole answer. You have to ask yourself, do they kill because they have a gun, or do they kill because they want to kill someone? Even where guns are hard to get, they can be had. I know some criminals want to blame the gun, but that is just a person who does not want to take responsibility for their actions. Blaming the gun is woo.

Ranb

you must have caught me pre-edit - though i chose to edit to make the time-frame more recent, i wasn't aware that there had been a national guard related shooting - and i agree that for that specific case the accessibility to guns is a little moot...unless one bans guns from the military

i agree that guns may not be the cause of them wanting to kill people - but it's something that enables that desire to be fulfilled.
guns are more impersonal than knives insomuch as the do not require personal contact,
guns allow the killing of a large number of people in a short period of time
guns allow for a post-shooting suicide (as seems the norm)

add to which the fact that one person with a knife (especially a child) can be far more easily over-powered without loss of life than if they have a gun...

so no one is diverting responsibility to an inanimate object (the gun) - the responsibility is with the individual. But the easy access to guns does appear to enable a small minority to enact their desires more easily - and it is this which we are discussing.

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

How many people arguing for gun ownership in this thread own one or more guns?

If you own a gun, why?

What do you think you are going to be able to do with your gun in a situation where you feel threatened? E.g., do you think you would have time to put your hand on it, or aim and fire it?

Would you be afraid to be without a gun?

Are you afraid with a gun?

 

[WildCat]

The question is for the pro gun lobby, if it isn't guns that is the factor, then what is?
are americans inherently more violent?
are there a greater number of mentally ill in america?
is it socially more acceptable to commit massacres?

none of those answers seem especially palatable, perhaps someone could suggest another.

The problem is that the real issue cannot be discussed without being branded a racist. Fact is, the homicide rates for caucasian whites in the US is very close to the rate in Canada and the UK. If you're a minority, your chances of being a homicide victim increases greatly. In other words, caucasian whites in the US with relatively easy access to guns don't murder each other more than those countries you cite with strict gun laws. The elephant in the room is the culture of violence within many minority communities, and it is not being addressed.

I think the evidence is quite strong that it is cultural in origin, and not simply gun laws.