Another cop murders a suspect

[Skeptic Tank]

Well that settles it then

Does it?

I'd say this is significantly more complicated than that.

There are a whole host of possibilities:

1.) These officers saw the tail end of what had happened, including Officer Tensing falling onto the ground and having to get back up, and even some of the dragging. However, when pressed on the matter by the prosecutors, they conceded that they only looked directly at Tensing after the shot being fired, catching their attention, and thus were not in a position to definitively state whether the dragging began prior to that or not.

2.) Same as #1 above, but without seeing any dragging at all. Officers may have conceded that they merely assumed dragging had taken place due to seeing Tensing have to get up off the ground, and noting that he appeared to be doing so several feet down the street from where the car had been parked during the traffic stop.

3.) Another possibility is that they really did see everything they had indicated they saw, but it was impressed upon them by the prosecutor that they could either assist in throwing Officer Tensing under the bus or they could join him there.

4.) Lastly, there is of course the possibility everyone here will immediately embrace. They may have claimed to have seen everything which backed Tensing's account up without actually having seen it, because they sympathized with a fellow officer who'd just been involved in his first shooting, they were aware of how bad a situation it is to be the white cop who just shot a black guy in a city which has had several black riots over the last several decades, and they felt solidarity in several ways with a fellow officer and wanted to back him up. In this scenario, the prosecutors have legitimately exposed this.

Regardless of any of these possibilities, a couple of things are clear from the two body cams we've seen. The first is that Officer Tensing absolutely is rapidly brought what looks to be in excess of 20 feet down the street in exact lockstep with the car's movements until he dislodges, falls down, and has to get back up. If people want to dispute whether what happened in that regard deserves to be called "dragging" or not, or whether he was only attached to the car because he held onto it, that's another discussion. What there cannot be is dispute that he was taken along with the car down the street for a significant distance.

The other thing which cannot be disputed is that the 2nd body cam shows that at least one of these other officers got there in time to see him on the ground, down the street, having to get back up onto his feet. Based on the timing of that video, it also seems clear that this officer also saw some of the dragging of Officer Tensing prior to that, but that his body cam didn't pick it up.

We're beyond the point of dispute about him being dragged, IMO. The only real debate now is whether the dragging was actually more of a situation of him deliberately holding on then letting go, as opposed to being somewhat entangled with the car briefly, AND perhaps most importantly, whether the dragging began a moment before the shot or not.

 

[RandFan]

We're beyond the point of dispute about him being dragged, IMO.

That makes as much sense as saying we're beyond the point of the Earth being flat. No.

 

[RandFan]

The first is that Officer Tensing absolutely is rapidly brought what looks to be in excess of 20 feet down the street in exact lockstep with the car's movements until he dislodges, falls down, and has to get back up. If people want to dispute whether what happened in that regard deserves to be called "dragging" or not, or whether he was only attached to the car because he held onto it, that's another discussion. What there cannot be is dispute that he was taken along with the car down the street for a significant distance.

False choice. He could have simply run along side. A point you've ignored. Why?

We're beyond the point of dispute about him being dragged, IMO.

In my mothers opinion, we are beyond the point of dispute about whether or not Jesus is her friend and she talks to him.

Spare me the BS. Please.

 

[Bob001]

.....
We're beyond the point of dispute about him being dragged, IMO. The only real debate now is whether the dragging was actually more of a situation of him deliberately holding on then letting go, as opposed to being somewhat entangled with the car briefly, AND perhaps most importantly, whether the dragging began a moment before the shot or not.

The snippet of the video that you yourself posted shows Tensing shooting through the open front window before the car begins moving. It then shows the car moving past Tensing while he points his gun at the space where it was.

The full-length video shows Tensing running after the car with the other two officers. You can hear his footsteps, his equipment rattling, shouts (including Tensing saying "I'm good") and radio calls. There is no evidence at all, including now from his fellow officers, that he was dragged.

This link synchs all three police videos. Nobody's getting dragged:
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...cameras-officers-samuel-dubose-shooting-video

And here's Tensing's full-length 27-minute bodycam video. The shooting is around 3:10. He starts polishing his story around 4:00, claiming "I thought he was gonna run me over." At about 6:25, he starts claiming his hand was caught and "He was dragging me, man" and repeats it alternately with his claims that he was about to get run over. At around 8:50 another cop asks if he needs medical care and he insists he doesn't. Later he says he needs to get "checked out." He keeps adapting his story as he re-tells it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7AC9zLzsCaQ

 

[KatieG]

Does it?

<snip>

We're beyond the point of dispute about him being dragged, IMO. The only real debate now is whether the dragging was actually more of a situation of him deliberately holding on then letting go, as opposed to being somewhat entangled with the car briefly, AND perhaps most importantly, whether the dragging began a moment before the shot or not.

No, we're (I'm damn sure) not. You may believe that but few others do. There is zero evidence this murderer was dragged even 1 inch. He wasn't entangled in anything inside the car. The victim, you know, the guy he murdered, was dead before the car started moving.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

To become a police officer in Norway requires a university bachelor degree.

This is something I've always been bothered by, I don't think cops in the US need more than a high school diploma. I'm pretty sure they only go to cop training school that doesn't even last a year.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

... We're beyond the point of dispute about him being dragged, IMO. The only real debate now is whether the dragging was actually more of a situation of him deliberately holding on then letting go, as opposed to being somewhat entangled with the car briefly, ...

I'm at a loss as to why you've latched on to this imaginary version of reality. Seriously, the guy wasn't dragged. Nowhere on the video from his body cam is there the least bit of movement suggesting he was dragged before or after he killed the victim.

 

[Bob001]

This is something I've always been bothered by, I don't think cops in the US need more than a high school diploma. I'm pretty sure they only go to cop training school that doesn't even last a year.

Some departments require some college credits, but almost no one requires a degree, and military service can be substituted for education. Many only require a high school diploma or GED. Police academy training is typically four to six months, depending on the department and state certification requirements, but can be much less. Then they're on the streets with badges and guns.

According to BJS, the median duration of basic recruit training - excluding any field training component - was 18 weeks across all academies with a range anywhere from four weeks to six months.

http://discoverpolicing.org/what_does_take/?fa=requirements
http://discoverpolicing.org/what_does_take/?fa=training_academy_life

 

[Wolrab]

I really don't think they ARE trained this way. They're certainly not trained to fire a LETHAL shot at a fleeing suspect in a minor situation like a traffic stop. There was no verbal warning, no warning shot, no shot to disable. Just BANG! in the head. That's what's going to damn him, I think, whether the car moved an inch or a foot, whether he was entangled or not, whether the car was a danger to him or not. His response was entirely inappropriate to the situation. Manslaughter, definitely.

IIANM, (internet tough guy/know it all that I am!) cops are trained to shoot at the center of mass. While not necessarily lethal, there are certainly a lot of vital organs, arteries, and veins there.

I am pretty sure they are trained to give verbal warnings if possible, but never a warning shot or a shot to disable.

I wouldn't have been surprised at all if it was an accident- the cop pulled the gun and it went off. It all happened so damned fast. Unfortunately, the cop's statements afterwards nix that defense.

 

[Wolrab]

If the cops shot everyone they had a scuffle with there would be a lot of dead people around.

It seems to me there are way too many dead people around.

 

[Distracted1]

This is something I've always been bothered by, I don't think cops in the US need more than a high school diploma. I'm pretty sure they only go to cop training school that doesn't even last a year.

Do you think requiring more extensive post secondary education would result in a more diverse police force?

 

[Z]

It seems to me there are way too many dead people around.

Not enough in my opinion... have you seen the world population lately? If we could trim that down to a few million instead, think of how much richer the rest of you could be? (Because I know I'd be part of the trimmed, guaranteed.)

 

[Z]

Do you think requiring more extensive post secondary education would result in a more diverse police force?

No, it would result in a better educated and effective police force.

Diversity would require racist hiring practices like affirmative action programs. For what it's worth, I kind of wonder if we shouldn't enable such programs, and have different populations policed by their own population-type. Except, of course, that someone from one population may tend to try to commit crimes like robbery or rape in other population areas.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

... I wouldn't have been surprised at all if it was an accident- the cop pulled the gun and it went off. ...

I've seen more than one police shooting video that it looks like the gun went off accidentally. The cops' egos won't let them admit that.

There was a shooting quite a number of years ago here in Seattle that looked accidental. The suspect was mentally ill brandishing a big knife. The cops were surrounding him keeping out of the knife distance. Nothing changed but one cop discharged his gun killing the guy. There was nothing visible on the video that triggered the shot, and the cop looked stunned by the shooting, rather that aggressively purposefully having shot. I'm convinced it was an accidental trigger pull.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Do you think requiring more extensive post secondary education would result in a more diverse police force?

I think an educated police force would mean higher quality police. With such low entrance standards now, they get more than a few poor quality cops in the mix. If college education screened some of those out, we'd all be better off.

 

[Bob001]

....
I'm convinced it was an accidental trigger pull.

The thing is that properly trained cops (and soldiers) are trained to keep their fingers outside the trigger guard until they have actually decided to fire. If they were "resting" their fingers on the trigger, they were already breaking the rules and creating a hazard not only to the subject, but to other officers and bystanders. (And firearms instructors will tell you that there's no such thing as an "accidental" shooting. It's always a negligent shooting.

 

[Distracted1]

The thing is that properly trained cops (and soldiers) are trained to keep their fingers outside the trigger guard until they have actually decided to fire. If they were "resting" their fingers on the trigger, they were already breaking the rules and creating a hazard not only to the subject, but to other officers and bystanders. (And firearms instructors will tell you that there's no such thing as an "accidental" shooting. It's always a negligent shooting.

Interesting.
Do you think such a stance leads people who make that mistake to misrepresent (lie about, if you prefer)the circumstances of the accident to avoid the charge of negligence?

 

[Bob001]

Interesting.
Do you think such a stance leads people who make that mistake to misrepresent (lie about, if you prefer)the circumstances of the accident to avoid the charge of negligence?

Seems like it could go either way, depending on exactly what happened (and who might have seen or videoed it). A cop might claim justification or self-defense to avoid being called negligent; but he'd probably rather confess to negligence ("Ah damn, my finger slipped!") than be charged with murder. But once he picks a story, he's pretty much stuck with it.

 

[RandFan]

Cincinnati Killer Cop Caught On Video Harassing Black Motorists

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Cincinnati Killer Cop Caught On Video Harassing Black Motorists

If he'd been smart instead of an ass, he'd have explained why the name without a birthday wasn't enough, or just looked up the name and then sought out more information. Instead he didn't like the answer and decided to be a jerk. It's classic, you aren't kowtowing to me and I have the power to make you.

I get it that cops feel disrespected when their every command isn't followed and when people don't kiss their asses. But they need to get over thinking their job includes being king dictator. Part of the job is to deal with being disrespected. A lot of people have no problem dealing with annoying people during their job.

Taking command when one needs to, fine, yell at people to stop or get down or whatever when the job calls for it. But letting that power trip get in the way instead of having the goal to get the job done without killing someone seems to be an issue with way too many cops.