Another 9/11-Holocaust Denial link

Which countries jail for Holocaust denial? Austria and I think Germany (it's understandable in these cases); France -- didn't LePen get in trouble? Where else? The David Irving trial in England was about alleged slander/ libel against him (Irving), I think for the accusation that he was a denier. Which he was proved to be. (A surprise result, at least to me. I didn't know the truth was a defense in such cases in England, while it is in the US.)

Is it outright illegal in Israel?

I don't believe there is any interest in imprisoning Holocaust deniers in the US. Though a number of ancient ex-SS have been identified and deported, though it was for lying in their immigration and citizenship papers (the lie being that they were not SS or otherwise involved).

Unqualified Holocaust denial (i.e, simply saying 'no one was gassed at Auschwitz') is illegal in Germany, Austria, Poland, Czech Republic, IIRC Slovakia, Romania, France, Belgium, Switzerland and Israel.

Ukraine put a bill on the legislation list which would have criminalised HD and denial of the Holodomor. Not sure if it passed yet. Poland and Romania also outlaw denial or minimisation/offensive remarks about communist crimes.

France has jailed a few, but mostly they get fines. Germany and Switzerland are similar. You have to be a real hardcore case to end up in jail by being a denier. Ernst Zundel maxed out with five years and the sentence was upheld on appeal.
 
The Toeben video is one of the few cases where Holocaust deniers have tried the 9/11 woo-woo tactic of a YouTube video.

As with many 9/11 YT scam videos, the trickery is so blatant as to discredit the argument totally. The video tried to claim that after an hours' exposure to HCN, four young men could emerge from a gas chamber unharmed.

:eek:

I never heard about this. People willingly exposing themselves to hydrogen cyanide??

What's next? Alex Jones will get someone to smash into his house with a 767, while he's in it, to prove how aircraft can't harm buildings?

In case you're reading and didn't get the joke, please don't try stuff like this at home. No matter how strongly you believe whatever it is you believe.
 
Where does Lyndon LaRouche fall on The Holocaust? A lot of these guys seem to come from his ranks.

There was quite a strong German chapter of LaRouchies, and most migrated into far-right parties such as the Republikaner. Several of what I call the fellow-travellers of hardcore deniers in Germany have a LaRouche background.

In the US, not such a big connection. The main links are with the National Alliance and the IHR. One IHR official was also a Scientologist.

LaRouche has a weird profile on these issues. I think the consensus is he's an antisemite, but he's never jumped on the HD bandwagon.
 
:eek:

I never heard about this. People willingly exposing themselves to hydrogen cyanide??

What's next? Alex Jones will get someone to smash into his house with a 767, while he's in it, to prove how aircraft can't harm buildings?

In case you're reading and didn't get the joke, please don't try stuff like this at home. No matter how strongly you believe whatever it is you believe.

The other classic was when an Italian denier tried to 'simulate' open-air cremations by taking some legs of lamb in an improvised oven in his backyard. He wanted to get some calculations for how much wood was needed (ignoring the eyewitness accounts that the fuel was wood-plus-petrol) among other things.

This has been critiqued elsewhere, and the obvious criticism is simple: no account is taken of economies of scale. The design is also totally different to the reports of the cremation trenches.

http://www.vho.org/tr/2004/1/Mattogno64-72.html

If someone of a scientific bent can offer some criticisms of this, I'd be very interested to see how exactly you'd call BS on this one.

EDIT: obviously the link is to a denier site, in case you're connecting from a workplace or country that restricts such access
 
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]This has been critiqued elsewhere, and the obvious criticism is simple: no account is taken of economies of scale. The design is also totally different to the reports of the cremation trenches.

http://www.vho.org/tr/2004/1/Mattogno64-72.html

If someone of a scientific bent can offer some criticisms of this, I'd be very interested to see how exactly you'd call BS on this one.

I think "economy of scale" captures it perfectly. Just like how a rabbit cage and a thimble-full of jet fuel are not a good model for the WTC fires and collapses. Heating and convection just don't scale linearly.

Looked at another way, human fat contains about 75% the energy density of gasoline, which is among the most efficient chemical fuels known to humankind. There's no reason at all to suspect a ghoulish device of this type couldn't work, feeble models nothwithstanding.
 
I'm impressed to see that denial of the Ukrainian famine may become a crime, at least in Ukraine. This ties to the general problem of the former Soviet-bloc states (including Poland, etc.); specifically the "lustration" (outing, essentially) of former state agents. The cases of those who were actual, outright state officials is straightforward by comparison -- though in fact a number of them have won elections in the last 15-17 years.

But the state police agencies so permeated society in all or most of the countries concerned, that huge percentages, at one time or another, were informing to the government. Including some dissidents. Well, it's an extraordinarily complex matter. This is the sort of thing that makes it so hard to give the slightest respect to Americans (and others in historically liberal states/ societies) who start calling "gestapo! fascist!" when they are thwarted.

Disclaimer: a vegan once called me a fascist in the grad school food co-op because (I was the manager) I wouldn't allow him and his to set up a co-op within the co-op.

Another disclaimer: when I was a young librarian, and insisted that a reader leave his overcoat and briefcase in the coat room, he called me Gestapo. In the back of the Rare Books reading room (security of the rare materials being a great concern), an older woman broke into hysterical laughter. As she explained, she had survived WW2 in German-occupied Ukraine, and the idea of me as Gestapo...
 
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Looked at another way, human fat contains about 75% the energy density of gasoline

I have wondered when in a morbid mood how much of the fuel in WTC came from this source? Horrid to contemplate really, but many victims were literally obliterated.

Now back to the topic - Deniers can be clever, some of them attempt to modify the accepted number of dead way down instead of denying it outright, as though mere numbers were the issue. I think many now are trying to justify their parent's role in the event by making it small enough to have not included Mom or Dad.
 
I think "economy of scale" captures it perfectly. Just like how a rabbit cage and a thimble-full of jet fuel are not a good model for the WTC fires and collapses. Heating and convection just don't scale linearly.

Looked at another way, human fat contains about 75% the energy density of gasoline, which is among the most efficient chemical fuels known to humankind. There's no reason at all to suspect a ghoulish device of this type couldn't work, feeble models nothwithstanding.

The argument doesn't really concern whether it would work - not even Holocaust deniers are stupid enough to argue that - but whether it would consume so much fuel and be so fuel-inefficient that the logistics would become impossible.

The same guy makes a huge fuss over the static crematoria. He has a surprise coming from me in due course as I can prove he totally misread a file of coke supply receipts, which he misused to argue there was insufficient coke to cremate as many as is claimed were cremated at Auschwitz. Naturally there are further scientific imbecilities, especially fancifully invoked 'thermal barriers' which supposedly say that you need at least 20kg of coke per body, which then is defined as an adult Western male rather than remembering that a very high proportion of the victims were in fact, children.

My colleagues elsewhere have delved into some pretty gross detail, investigating mass incinerations of livestock and the like. Those are far more obvious real-world models to use for comparison, and they show it's remarkably easy to burn substantial piles of mammal, efficiently and relatively quickly.

There is a further argument to personal incredulity-pseudoscientific argument invoked, namely that witnesses mention the use of human fat running off from the pyres, to stoke them. I.e, not simply the added energy released by the combustion of fat, but the capture of run-off fat and then its return to the fire. This provokes much scorn from deniers.
'Common sense' says the situation is not vastly different from ordinary stove or barbecue cooking, but as we know 'common sense' may not always be correct.

I have wondered when in a morbid mood how much of the fuel in WTC came from this source? Horrid to contemplate really, but many victims were literally obliterated.

It is horrible to contemplate, but in itself surely a fraction of the total thermal energy that was released. There is however a parallel with the usual fire-can't-melt-steel debate, namely that the temperatures reached in some pockets of the WTC fire would have perhaps been sufficient to achieve a funeral-pyre combustion to the point where bodies could go on burning.

Anyway, gross-out out.:boggled:
 
Nick Terry, you clearly have investigated the Holocaust deniers very seriously. I'll tell you one thing which puzzles me: their focus on Auschwitz. True, it was the largest single killing site, with 1 mln+ dead. But Treblinka, Sobibor, Majdanek, Chelmno, and Belzec were also on massive scales. (Just to list the main sites in Poland.) And something like half of the 6 mln Jewish victims weren't killed in the camps, but in mass shootings or in the ghettos in Poland or the former USSR. Do the deniers ever acknowledge that?

And it is also noteworthy that they never confront the mass of Polish and other eastern European documentary and witness evidence as to the scale of the Holocaust. Something over (for example) 1 mln Christian Polish citizens were killed in the war, chiefly outside of military operations. Do the deniers deny this? How?
 
Nick Terry, you clearly have investigated the Holocaust deniers very seriously. I'll tell you one thing which puzzles me: their focus on Auschwitz. True, it was the largest single killing site, with 1 mln+ dead. But Treblinka, Sobibor, Majdanek, Chelmno, and Belzec were also on massive scales. (Just to list the main sites in Poland.) And something like half of the 6 mln Jewish victims weren't killed in the camps, but in mass shootings or in the ghettos in Poland or the former USSR. Do the deniers ever acknowledge that?

And it is also noteworthy that they never confront the mass of Polish and other eastern European documentary and witness evidence as to the scale of the Holocaust. Something over (for example) 1 mln Christian Polish citizens were killed in the war, chiefly outside of military operations. Do the deniers deny this? How?

Much like 9/11 nutjobs, Holocaust deniers seem to focus on any cherry-picked 'evidence' that could remotely back up their claims and then quietly ignore the overwhelming body of evidence that proves they are completely wrong. And like 9/11 nutjobs they have no unified and coherent theory of what they think really happened.
 
Much like 9/11 nutjobs, Holocaust deniers seem to focus on any cherry-picked 'evidence' that could remotely back up their claims and then quietly ignore the overwhelming body of evidence that proves they are completely wrong. And like 9/11 nutjobs they have no unified and coherent theory of what they think really happened.

Correct. They only have a unified and coherent theory of what they "know" didn´t happen.

9/11 CTs: "It was NOT 19 Arabs with box cutters."

Holocaust Deniers: "The Nazis did NOT commit genocide."
 

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