Anonymous protests $cientology again on April 12th!

Okay, this is anonymous here. You know, the group that went on an epilepsy forum and posted links and redirects to a gif designed to induce both pattern and color-related epilepsy.

These are not, I repeat NOT nice people. Sure, the protests they started may have been largely taken over by forces outside of them, but lets not forget what the core is.


I rarely disgust myself, but I wanted to scour my brain with steel wool over the inability to stop laughing when I read that story for the first time.
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Scientology can be hazardous to your mental health and to your career.
I give you Tom Cruise in evidence.
 
Yeah, because it wasn't posted on the forum while they were doing it, or totally consistent with their actions.

Disrupting the protests and false flagging them is very scientology. The animated epilepsy gif is pure anon, and you know it.
You treat Anonymous as a uniform group, or like it is in some way organized. Yes, the epilepsy attack was the kind of thing pre-Chanology Anonymous would have done. The same people are still out there. They are still Anonymous, as are the peaceful protesters who joined after Feb. 10, as David Miscavige, George W. Bush, Kim Jong Il, Nelson Mandela, Desmond Tutu, and every other person on this planet can be. Anonymous is not the kind of group that you sign up for, or that you have any sign of membership other than your own actions. To blame an act like the epilepsy forum attack on "Anonymous" would be like blaming a pickpocketing on "pedestrians" - just because they tend to be together doesn't mean any of them are responsible for any others' actions.

Every action attributable to Anonymous is an action carried out by individuals. If one or members of Anonymous attack an epilepsy forum, only they bear the responsibility. If one or more members of Anonymous reform a vicious, money-grubbing brainwashing cult and free its members, they alone deserve the credit.

If you want to keep Anonymous members from doing stupid or evil things, post on their web forums and talk in their IRC channels. Add your voice, and contribute to the hive mind. One man's voice turned Project Chanology from hacking and pranks to global, peaceful, legal protests in three weeks. What could your voice do?
 
Yeah, because it wasn't posted on the forum while they were doing it, or totally consistent with their actions.

Disrupting the protests and false flagging them is very scientology. The animated epilepsy gif is pure anon, and you know it.

Yes, it was. And it was roundly condemned by the majority of those involved in the chanology movement as being morally wrong and (or) counterproductive. I share your distate for a lot of what comes out of the chans.

"anonymous" is not a group. It's a collective of collectives with only a subculture in common with each other. The anonymous fighting scientology is a splinter group with a strong group consensus against the sort of thing the original anonymous was known for. The moral ones, the intelligent ones, the ones with a social conscience. anonymous v2.0 if you like.

In fact, a further subdivision of the original chan anonymous has been trying to criticise or even sabotage the movement.

A decent enough analogy would be the 9/11 truthers (or charging psychics, whatever) registered to the JREF forums. Would you tar the rest of us with their brush? I doubt it.
 
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Say all you want about "individuals acting on their own". I've heard it often, usually from the same people who like to post melodramatic singsong silliness about how "We are Anonymous, we are legion, expect us". We. Us. When something interesting or laudable happens, it's all "look what WE have accomplished". Until Anonymous gets criticized for some action or other that is less than laudable, whereupon it's, "there is no us - those were just individuals doing their own thing". They want all of the good and none of the bad. They want it both ways. I'm afraid things don't work that way.

"Anonymous" has a reputation, earned through the actions of folks who identify themselves as belonging to that group. That reputation, and those incidents, span several years' worth of time. "3 months of peaceful protest" does not erase any of that. Whether or not Anonymous is organized in any way is completely beside the point. Anonymous may be only a set of individuals which share a common "subculture", as someone has earlier pointed out, but history has shown that some prominent attributes of that subculture are cruelty and malice.

Anyone can protest Scientology if they want. But if they choose to do so under the flag of a specific group - if they choose to lie down with Anonymous's dogs, they cannot complain when they rise up with Anonymous's fleas.
 
Say all you want about "individuals acting on their own". I've heard it often, usually from the same people who like to post melodramatic singsong silliness about how "We are Anonymous, we are legion, expect us". We. Us. When something interesting or laudable happens, it's all "look what WE have accomplished". Until Anonymous gets criticized for some action or other that is less than laudable, whereupon it's, "there is no us - those were just individuals doing their own thing". They want all of the good and none of the bad. They want it both ways. I'm afraid things don't work that way.
You make a valid point, and the problem exists among almost every single group working for any cause. But it's not really that simple in this case. Project Chanology is a large-scale collective effort unlike any other, so the "we" and "us" amongst Anonymous are more justified - not just more comfortable - than in other cases.

Whether or not Anonymous is organized in any way is completely beside the point.
It most certainly is not. In most groups, members are held responsible for the actions by other members because they have the power to change their behavior. Anonymous, which, if I may remind you, has not even been seen as a group before Project Chanology, has a virtually anarchistic power structure, which means no one has any power over anyone. There is no way to expel anyone from the "group", so what do people do? They show their approval of certain actions by including them in what they want Anonymous to be, and show their disapproval of other actions by excluding them. That behavior should be encouraged.
 
Of course the memes and the politically incorrect subculture stuff persists - this started as geeks reacting against a perceived slight, and the roots of it will always be there. You might not like that, but I'd ask that you judge by "anon"s actions 10th Feb onward.

I do remember well how it started. I even remember the perceived slight - the taking down of a YouTube video. I know that.

The problem is what I also know. And what I also know is that if that YouTube video had not been taken down, none of this would be happening. There would be no "why we fight", there would be no remorse, pity, or indignation over Scientology's victims and their treatment. If that video had not been taken down, cases and names Anonymous folks like to throw around now to garner sympathy would still be nothing but "lulz" material. They would be making bad jokes and playing Photoshop games with Lisa McPherson's autopsy photos, because that's what they do.

And as long as I know that, I cannot do any backslapping. At least, not over "3 months of nonviolence", because there are perfectly reasonable explanations for that other than Anonymous's "changing" somehow. On their message boards, they still talk the same talk to this very day. Change? Not enough evidence to convince me yet.
 
Well personally as a "newfag" in the war on scientology, I personally feel that scientology deserves much worse, anon could have use their anarchy and deliver thier version of a jihad/crusade but chose not to.
 
I do remember well how it started. I even remember the perceived slight - the taking down of a YouTube video. I know that.

The problem is what I also know. And what I also know is that if that YouTube video had not been taken down, none of this would be happening. There would be no "why we fight", there would be no remorse, pity, or indignation over Scientology's victims and their treatment. If that video had not been taken down, cases and names Anonymous folks like to throw around now to garner sympathy would still be nothing but "lulz" material. They would be making bad jokes and playing Photoshop games with Lisa McPherson's autopsy photos, because that's what they do.

And as long as I know that, I cannot do any backslapping. At least, not over "3 months of nonviolence", because there are perfectly reasonable explanations for that other than Anonymous's "changing" somehow. On their message boards, they still talk the same talk to this very day. Change? Not enough evidence to convince me yet.

But you're still seeing a huge amorphous group as "they". Have you read the threads on forums.enturbulation.org? Because that's the hub of the movement, not ebaumsworld, 4chan or wherever. The people that started this began there, and many will no doubt still use those boards - but the incarnation of anonymous carrying this "war" is using that forum, various dedicated national/regional forums, IRC and so on. It's a distinct movement with its roots in a subculture.

AFAICT "anonymous" is pretty well parallel with subculture/counterculture labels like "goth", "punk" - which is to say pretty meaningless. They share a certain outlook, certain genre tastes in music, film, games etc, and yes, that strong streak of mischief that spawns everything from harmless mainstream-penetrating "lolcats" to black fax attacks against perceived opponents and decidedly black humour. Some are bad, some are good, some are morally ambiguous (at least online).

You wouldn't blame an individual member of a subculture (whether self or third-party-identified) for the actions of other individual members of said group (I hope). I think the same applies here. If you prefer - think of it as a very loose gang. Though you might suspect every "member" as a potential criminal simply by association, you must give each splinter group and each individual the benefit of the doubt and judge them by their actions.

The anons who are still driving this movement (now composed of more than just those people), if they were involved in the bad stuff at all (no doubt a fair few were) have either grown up and got on with it, or have gone back to their chans. Some have taken action against what they perceive as a moral crusade that's anathema to their rather strange ethos. I would suggest that it's those latter who have most in common with the reservations you have of people identifying as "anonymous". They are simply ignored by the movement.
 
The anons who are still driving this movement (now composed of more than just those people), if they were involved in the bad stuff at all (no doubt a fair few were) have either grown up and got on with it, or have gone back to their chans. Some have taken action against what they perceive as a moral crusade that's anathema to their rather strange ethos. I would suggest that it's those latter who have most in common with the reservations you have of people identifying as "anonymous". They are simply ignored by the movement.
I know, and it is a damn shame to see the name of such an interestingly nihilistic group co-opted by some damn crusade that won't accomplish much anyway. One has to admire the original spirit of anonymous. If they want to continue the protests, they really need to relabel themselves. Otherwise Anon is eventually going to get around to really taking a bite out of them.
 
You wouldn't blame an individual member of a subculture (whether self or third-party-identified) for the actions of other individual members of said group (I hope). I think the same applies here. If you prefer - think of it as a very loose gang. Though you might suspect every "member" as a potential criminal simply by association, you must give each splinter group and each individual the benefit of the doubt and judge them by their actions.

The anons who are still driving this movement (now composed of more than just those people), if they were involved in the bad stuff at all (no doubt a fair few were) have either grown up and got on with it, or have gone back to their chans. Some have taken action against what they perceive as a moral crusade that's anathema to their rather strange ethos. I would suggest that it's those latter who have most in common with the reservations you have of people identifying as "anonymous". They are simply ignored by the movement.

You're missing the point, although I'll concede it's an easy thing to do with points such as this.

We live in a world where everyone is divided into groups with labels - either chosen by themselves, or imposed on them by others who seek to classify them. When someone chooses a label, they identify themselves as belong to a group - a set of individuals that share something in common.

A person who says "I am a deer hunter", for instance, is placing himself in a group - a set of individuals who choose to participate in a certain activity. When you hear someone describe himself as a "deer hunter", you can feel safe making certain assumptions about things he does - to wit: at some point during the year he arms himself and travels to an area where deer hunting is allowed, and he tries to kill one or more deer. Perhaps he makes more than one trip, perhaps not. You can feel safe making that assumption because doing those things is precisely what makes someone a "deer hunter". If the person who identified himself as a deer hunter did NOT do those things, he would be lying, or mistaken. But assuming he is being honest, he belongs to that specific set of individuals - that GROUP. He may belong to a formal organization, composed of other members of that GROUP, but not necessarily. Perhaps he just goes out with some friends, who don't have any kind of organization about them. Perhaps he goes all by himself. No matter which, he belongs to that group with which he chooses to identify. That group of individuals who all choose the same label, and all engage in the same activities.

Any label works this way. If I person describes herself as a pilot, you know that he flies airplanes or helicopters (or perhaps just steers large boats - context is important). If someone describes himself as a Republican, you know that he holds, by and large, to a general set of political views. If someone describes himself as a beekeeper, you know that he owns some beehives and works with his bees on occasion.

The point is, unless you make up a brand new label for yourself, you're using a label that's been around and has some connotations already attached to it, that people WILL think of when they hear you describe yourself so. Imagine a person, a teacher for instance, who works with children, and absolutely loves it. She belongs to that set of people who also love kids. What label would she choose? Literally speaking, the word "pedophile" means "one who loves kids", but should she use that label? No. Because the world "pedophile" carries specific connotations which, if she wants to continue working with kids, she wouldn't want people to attach to her.

Full circle. You seem to be trying to describe "Anonymous" as an informal set of individuals who are basically nothing more than computer bulletin board enthusiasts, some of whom have engaged in a malicious prank now and then. I think this portrayal is absolutely dead-on wrong, wrong, wrong. There are all kinds of computer bulletin board enthusiasts; there are all kinds of particular sets within that larger set. Based on what I myself have seen, the commonality - the thing which makes the "Anonymous"-labeled set of computer bulletin board enthusiasts different from all the other sets - IS their delight and mockery of others' tragedy and suffering. That's the characteristic - again, according to my personal observations - that makes "Anonymous" "Anonymous". Certainly, the actual actions committed weren't committed by everyone. But the actions aren't the commonality. The commonality is the mindset that such things are funny, or at least tolerable. "Lulz", if you will.

I understand very clearly that the vast overwhelming majority of people who are actually, physically showing up to these protests have about as much to do with Anonymous as I do. They're not there because they saw the words "Anonymous Scientology protest", they're there because they saw the words "Scientology protest". Yet, they identify themselves as belonging to or working with Anonymous - likely for no other reason than that they've been told that's who's "running the show", no matter how true it is by this point in time. They're the kid-loving teachers who, having never heard the negative connotations of the word "pedophile" before, decided to use the label because it means "one who loves kids". However noble I find their intentions, I can't share their folly, knowing it is a folly.

As for the others - the few surviving operators who actually WERE part of the "original" Anonymous, the ones you say may very well at some point had been sending black faxes or running DDOS attacks, or making silly "threatening" YouTube videos, but just aren't anymore - well, they know very well what Anonymous's defining characteristics are. Perhaps they don't mind identifying themselves as sharing those characteristics, or at least being sympathetic towards them. Fine - no business of mine. But I will certainly not be following any effort they are leading. Even against Scientology. The enemy of my enemy does NOT have to be my friend.
 
Clearly if you've made up your mind that anyone joining in one what started as a childish reaction to spoiled mischief is misguided and taking on the trappings of something that is in some way morally repugnant, then yes, anonymous is a bad thing.

You seem to be saying now that whatever "anonymous" does, they will be your enemy. Earlier, you implied that they could somehow sway your opinion by their actions. I wonder just what it would take.

I fail to see why turning up at an anti-Scientology protest that *no-one* is in charge of, is any different than a concerned citizen taking part in say, a "stop the war" march that might contain elements who use illegal activities or are otherwise seen as undesirable by many. It doesn't make the action of protest any less right, and it doesn't mean that the protesters are the same "anonymous" that have so offended you.
 
You seem to be saying now that whatever "anonymous" does, they will be your enemy. Earlier, you implied that they could somehow sway your opinion by their actions. I wonder just what it would take.

It's not contradictory at all. Certainly I could be swayed by their actions. It would take time - longer than a paltry 3 months - and practically a complete reversal in everything Anonymous folks seem to stand for, but it COULD be done. Anything is possible, right?

And yet as soon as I type those words, I know it will never happen. I'm quite confident that my opinion of them will never change. That's not contradiction, it's just a realistic prediction of the future.

I fail to see why turning up at an anti-Scientology protest that *no-one* is in charge of, is any different than a concerned citizen taking part in say, a "stop the war" march that might contain elements who use illegal activities or are otherwise seen as undesirable by many. It doesn't make the action of protest any less right, and it doesn't mean that the protesters are the same "anonymous" that have so offended you.

But it isn't analogous, is it? We're not talking about some attendees who just happen to have shown up, who may be undesirable. Whether or not it remains the same way, I think we can all agree here that this business was all suggested and birthed by those undesirables (or birthed by those, whom some would consider undesirables), at the very beginning. It's the bugle they sounded that everybody's responding to, whether or not any particular person can be said to now be "in charge" or not. It's not much of a taint, but enough for me. I make a statement by shunning the results of their effort.

If I get a hankering to protest Scientology in person, I can show up the next day, or a couple of days later, if it do ya fine.
 
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Having spent a good deal of time talking to the anonymous involved in this both online and in real life, I have not chatted with or met a single one that seems even capable of griefing people. That suggests to me that this movement is the "son" of the loose collective of layabouts who spawned it.

Following that through, I don't think sins of the father should be visited upon that son until he actually does something worth condemning him for. Put another way, there's simply no evidence that these people are the same people that you've taken against. There is a further complication of course, which is that anyone (old "anonymous", trolls, whoever) could simply use the name, do something stupid, and in one sense prove you right. This still wouldn't change the nature and intent of the core group, who have behaved nigh on impeccably. I've seen some suggestion that individual members are taking it upon themselves to prank call, but frankly I have little issue with that beyond the childish message it sends out. The accusations of "cyber terrorism" are pure propaganda.

One last time - I don't see the relevance of the origin of the movement - not a movement as disparate as this. Andrew Morton's book was another catalyst for this latest rallying of the critics, who til now have lacked a central focus, numbers, and a certain energy. That's what anonymous provides, and that is why so many are rallying behind their "brand", however tainted you might feel it is.

Yours seems to be an argument from emotion, with respect. In any case I hope anonymous win you over. They may not care what you think, but I certainly do.
 
Anyone can protest Scientology if they want. But if they choose to do so under the flag of a specific group - if they choose to lie down with Anonymous's dogs, they cannot complain when they rise up with Anonymous's fleas.

:boggled: Isn't that a tad melodramatic? They are just a bunch of kids not the spawn of Satan.

Yes, the Anonymous mob play the shock game. However, they are a loosely defined bunch of kids from all around the world. They share a subculture which is largely based on taking the piss out of people and scat humour. The only thing different about this from previous generations of teenagers is that it is a very large global network. Many of us rang doorbells and ran away when we were kids. Others perhaps did not and thought it lamentable behaviour. Undoubtedly the former considered the latter in less than favourable light.

Although the the initial catalyst was over a video, the point regarding Scientology is valid and if (and only if) they do keep the peaceful protest and net information thing up they are making a useful contribution. At the end of the day a useful contribution is a useful contribution whether one likes the contributer or not. Clearly you do not like the contributer and it perfectly reasonable for you to wish to have no part in what they get up to. Absolutely no argument there.




On a separate note - anybody know where else one can get these V masks from? I have had a couple on back order for my daughter and her friend from Forbidden Planet for weeks but they are permanently out of stock. If they are going to do the protests I would prefer their identities covered as I don't really trust the Scientology bozos.
 
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On a separate note - anybody know where else one can get these V masks from? I have had a couple on back order for my daughter and her friend from Forbidden Planet for weeks but they are permanently out of stock. If they are going to do the protests I would prefer their identities covered as I don't really trust the Scientology bozos.
Hmm, the Birmingham Forbidden Planet re-stock about a week before each protest, but then it's pretty much a scramble. A cheaper alternative is to get a plain mask and paint as you like. We also get many participants with scarves, monsters, jesters, Nixon... As long as the eye and mouth areas are covered they should be fine.

Kudos to those discussing with Checkmite. I saw his/her first message during Monday morning blues and would have done a terrible job!
 
Although the the initial catalyst was over a video, the point regarding Scientology is valid and if (and only if) they do keep the peaceful protest and net information thing up they are making a useful contribution. At the end of the day a useful contribution is a useful contribution whether one likes the contributer or not.

I don't think that has to be axiomatic.

Let's pick another analogy. Say, for the sake of argument, that I'm strongly against the war in Iraq. Enough against it that I would travel a great distance across many states to take part in a protest against said war. Let's say the 9/11 Truth Movement decides to hold a protest specifically against the Iraq war (and nothing but the Iraq war) in my hometown on my day off. I would not attend that protest. Would you consider that reprehensible?
 
I don't think that has to be axiomatic.

Let's pick another analogy. Say, for the sake of argument, that I'm strongly against the war in Iraq. Enough against it that I would travel a great distance across many states to take part in a protest against said war. Let's say the 9/11 Truth Movement decides to hold a protest specifically against the Iraq war (and nothing but the Iraq war) in my hometown on my day off. I would not attend that protest. Would you consider that reprehensible?

No, but then I have already said that I do not find your wish to not participate in the anti-Scientology thing reprehensible either. It is not the desire to not participate that is an issue - I go and have a coffee with an old friend when my daughter is doing her thing - but rather the suggestion, which is perhaps wrongly picked up on my part, that Anon should not protest or that their protest has no validity. I think if the Scientologists welcomed the protests or were untroubled then there may be a point there but they do appear to be unsettled by this negative focus within youth culture and rarely can cults, and religions generally, have been discussed to this depth in these forums before. Even if the knowledge makes one kid wary it will not have been wasted effort..

As to the anti Iraq war thing, I, if it were me, would go to the rally I originally intended but I would have no issue with the TMers doing their own thing - it could be reasonably argued that it would be their first coherent activity and should not be discouraged ;)
 
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