Annoying creationists

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Delphi, do you believe there is some other mechanism than mutation and selection which can give common descent? Answer with a YES or a NO.
This question doesn't make sense! Mutation and selection did not cause common descent. Reproduction "caused" common descent. Mutation and selection caused the diversity of life. If you're asking if I believe there's another mechanism which could have produced that diversity, I would say no. It's possible, but I think it's very unlikely we will find a mechanism besides natural selection acting on mutations.

But you still have not answered my direct question. I'm not letting you off the hook. Let's try this again:
Do you believe that all of the life on Earth come from a common ancestor? In other words, is all life on earth part of one big family tree? Answer with a YES or a NO. No chickening out this time.
 
The only way your interpretation of this parable fits is The James Randi Educational Forum is the ground ...
Yes, of course. Duh. The forums correspond, in the parable, to the earth in which you are burying your lord's money.

That's so clear and obvious, I'm astonished that you understood it.

Now, will you answer the question? Why are you hiding this life-saving discovery?

... and then you will have to explain why you have posted more than 10,000 times on this forum.
Because in none of my posts do I claim to have made a discovery that will help millions of suffering and dying people, and so I feel no need to seek a wider audience for my views.

But you do make such a claim. So why should your supposedly awesome discovery be buried alongside my limericks, pictures of kittens, and jokes about spoonbenders and TV psychics?
 
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So Adequate, what do you think monotherapy has done for the treatment of HIV? You evolutionists are so good at explaining how mutation and selection works. Explain that to the people with HIV who got monotherapy before they got combination therapy; that is if they are still alive.
Since you ask, I think that combination therapy is better than monotherapy for HIV, just like every other evolutionist does, as you know perfectly well.

We even patiently explained to you why it's better, remember? About, I don't know, a hundred pages back?

Now, how about you answer my question?
 
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Delphi, do you believe there is some other mechanism than mutation and selection which can give common descent? Answer with a YES or a NO. It's not that hard.

Yes. Polyploidization can give common descent. If we find an animal or a plant which has a certain number of chromosomes, and another which have a number of chromosomes equal to a multiple of that first set, this would imply common descent of these two animals or plants even if there have been no other changes of the genome.

In the creature I did my master thesis on, Lumbriculus variegatus (1), we find diploid, triploid, tetraploid, and all the way up to 11-ploid individuals (2) which are --- as far as anyone has been able to tell --- morphologically identical (3). Certainly, these often do show some slight variation in the exact sequences (in nuclear regions, these differences are on the scale of one in 10.000 between individuals from Sweden and the US, presumably isolated for millions of years). However, as often as not, we find no differences in either the nuclear or the mitochondrial DNA. The only difference between them is the ploidy number.

There exists at least one mechanism by which 34 chromosomes (the diploid number of Lumbriculus variegatus can change into, say, 68, namely autopolyploidisation. If an lineage goes through autopolyploidisation, the descendants will be polyploid but otherwise genetically identical to their diploid ancestors. As these animals almost invariably are asexual (at least in Europe), relatives of these polyploid animals will often have the same genetic sequence, but differ in the number of chromosomes. Usually, no recombination occurs, as the asexual populations reproduce primarily through architomy; that is, the division of the body into two parts with subsequent regeneration of a head on the old tail and a tail on the old head (5).

Thus, without any mutation and selection, we can show that two Lumbriculus have a common descent simply by the fact that their genomes are identical, but their ploidy levels are not.

Now what?

---
(1) Also known as the Californian Black Worm, for some reason.
(2) After this ploidy level, the individual chromosomes are too small to count accurately, according to Christensen (1980), but there is no known mechanism, as far as I am aware, to stop polyploidisation from occurring past the point where it can be detected by the human eye. I can say with some confidence that there likely are Lumbriculus out there with higher ploidy levels.
(3) This is not entirely true, of course. They display an enormous variation in the number and position of the genital elements (4) and in their pigmentation. This has not yet been shown to have any correlation with ploidy level, however. Christensen (1980), however, stated that increased ploidy level seemed to decrease the efficiency of spermatogenesis, so there may be some ploidy-related effects in play.
(4) It should perhaps be explained that in the current taxonomy of Clitellata, families are roughly based on the number and position of the genital elements in almost all cases. If the genitals start in, say, segment 11, the worm can immediately be at least preliminarily assigned to a family. The variation in the Lumbriculus complex, however, is greater than the variation between families of other Clitellates, making them notoriously hard to assign to family level, had they not had a distinct pigmentation in the anterior end, and some other key characters. Recent progress by my old supervisor's group has shown, however, that these arrangements of families, though most often verified by genetic data, are not as reliable as hitherto thought. Some aberrant families have recently been shown to be parts of larger families, despite odd genitals.
(5) These also undergo morphallaxis, the process by which individual segments change morphologically, physiologically, and chemically to fit their new relative position in the new worm. Further, there are some queer limitations of how much will regenerate and so on, but I guess that by now, I have lost everyone's interest, so I will not go deeper into that unless asked to.
 
When you examine the mathematical and empirical evidence of how mutation and selection actually works, you find that combination selection pressures profoundly slow the evolutionary process.
Ok. Let's pretend you are correct.
Common descent isn't real.
Evolution doesn't happen.
Species remain what they are and do not change.
Just of out curiousity...

How do you explain the fossil record?
The evidence of species appearing and disspearing throughout history?
Similarities in gemones?
Chromosomal fusion of chimp genome?
emergence of multi-drug resistant bacteria?
Existence of viral dna in human genome and similarities with other species?
Existence of multiploidy and apparehent common descent?
The unusually high existence of sickle cell in african populations?
The existence of iRNA?
The fact that nothing has proven to be irreducibly complex in biology?
Why do the same proteins have multiple functions in different cells (e.g., PLA2/Prdx6)
nylon eating bacteria?
seperate species producing viable offspring?
symbiotic relationships in biology?
Why do mitochondria have thier own DNA?
Why do creatures reproduce sexually?
Why do some creatures reproduce by budding?
Why do cells, which divide, exchange DNA?
Why do cells exchange organelles?
 
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Anytime you want to describe the selection pressure that would transform dinosaurs into birds, feel free to chime in. Oh, wait a minute, Kotatsu already answered that one. A dinosaur got chased into a tree and it was beneficial for the dinosaur to grow feathers and wings. Hey Kotatsu, was that a female or male dinosaur which got chased into the tree?

Neither. That happened when God was still creating all animals individually, making the necessary mutations by hand.

Is it due to ill will that you display this lack of understanding of simple concepts, or are you like this in real life as well?

Let me explain one more time, while trying to find out exactly what part of the scenario it is you cannot understand:
Over a prolonged period of time a group of small dinosaurs gradually became arboreal.

Do you agree with this?

These arboreal dinosaurs were faced with a dilemma their terrestrial relatives did not have. Their environment contained huge holes; the trees were not a continuous mass as the ground was.

Do you agree with this?

Therefore, to get from one tree to another --- to escape from predators, to get more food, or just to move around --- they basically had two choices. They could either go down from the tree they were in, walk over to the next one, and climb that one. Or they could jump from one tree to another without touching the ground in between.

Do you agree with this?

Conceivably, some choose the former; these are not interesting for us, as they did not provide the ancestors of modern birds. Those who chose the latter, however, are what interests us. They found that when jumping from one tree to another, some always misjudged the distance, was caught by the wind, or something, and fell to the ground. Often, these animals did not survive because of the fall.

Do you agree with this?

The individuals who didn't fall to their death survived. This is a very simple concept, but essential. Some of these surviving individuals reproduced after having moved from one tree to another.

Do you agree with this?

Conceivably, there was a reason why some individuals managed to jump from one tree to another while others fell to their deaths. This reason may have been partly or totally based on the differences in the genome of the individuals.

Do you agree with this?

Over time, a larger percentage of those individuals or lineages which were better at judging the distance, keeping in the air, or possessed other necessary characters for moving about between trees survived to reproduce, whereas those lineages whose judgement or skills were not as good survived to a lesser extent.

Do you agree with this?

The genomes of these lineages, whether they survived or not, changed over time due to mutations.

Do you agree with this?

Some of these mutations provided a change in a character which made it easier to get from one tree to another without falling to your death. For instance, as MrScott showed, a single point mutation in modern hens make their feet grow feathers. While we cannot know the corresponding sequences of these arboreal dinosaurs, we can at least draw the conclusion that changes of this magnitude need to be based on extensive genetic change.

Here, I suspect you will disagree, if you haven't already.

The lineages in which these fortuitous mutations occurred --- and please notice that this is not limited to random point mutations --- were incrementally better equipped to move about in the trees. Thus, over time, they grew more plentiful than those lineages without the fortuitous mutations.

Agree?

As several factors weigh in on the success of moving from one tree to another, mutations which made this process simpler are conceivably numerous. In some lineages, one fortuitous mutation occurred, in others other fortuitous mutations occurred.

Agree?

These lineages could often interbreed, thus "collecting" or exchanging fortuitous mutations by sexual selection (all birds are sexual, and I assume here that dinosaurs were, too). Sometimes, this meant that one or more fortuitous mutation in one lineage was replaced by non-fortuitous ones in the progeny. In other cases, non-fortuitous mutations were replaced with fortuitous ones.

Agree?

The progeny of these latter cases were better equipped for moving about between trees than those of the former cases. This interbreeding continues over and over again, with approximately the same distribution of results.

Agree?

Now for the punch line: In the present case, one or several of these fortuitous mutations caused the "carrying area" of the scales to increase. Again, this is not necessarily a great change, as we have seen. These lineages became the precursor to birds, because these enlarged scales were precursors of feathers. Once this process had started, it was just a matter of what I believe you have referred to as "microevolution": just as different dogs have changed quite rapidly, changes in length and shape of these scales were just minor adjustments, because a character to improve upon had already developed: the scales.

As I have mentioned repeatedly before, this was not necessarily the best way to achieve greater survival to reproduction among arboreal animals, nor is it the only one in evidence today. Several other mechanisms have evolved, and some of them have even evolved on other dinosaurs (see Microraptor and its four wings, for example). However, that was the way it happened, and these changed scales have since been improved upon until they are well nigh unrecognisable as scales, and the birds well nigh unrecognisable as dinosaurs. But only "well nigh", because upon closer study --- and I am a birdwatcher with a great interest in dinosaurs, so I have taken time to study this closer --- the similarities are enormous. The gait, the stances, the general morphology --- in several different ways it is easy to come to the conclusion that dinosaurs are the ancestors of birds. And like a cherry on top, we also have an extensive fossil record describing exactly this change.
 
Now that we know how mutation and selection actually works, that is combination selection pressures profoundly slow the evolutionary process (and this has been shown numerous times both mathematically and empirically). And mutation and selection is the foundation mechanism for the theory of evolution. Since the foundation mechanism can not accomplish what is required for the theory of evolution to be plausible, every interpretation that evolutionists make of the evidence is called into question.

So, before you found out how mutation and selection work via Paul's model and combination thereapy, there was no reason for you to call into question evolutionists' interpretation of the evidence? Is that what you are saying?
 
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Yes. Polyploidization can give common descent.
Ah, so you took his question to mean "Is there another mechanism we can use to infer common descent?" I'm not sure if that's what he meant or not (figuring out his word salad is almost impossible sometimes,) but you gave a very interesting response.

We found a genome wide duplication event in the poplar genome project, which was probably caused by a paleopolyploid event sometime over the course of its divergence from its common ancestor with A. thaliana. Apparently these events happen very often in plants. There has been some speculation that they are a major cause of speciation in plants.
 
The fact that nothing has proven to be irreducibly complex in biology?
I disagree. Although most creationist example of irreducible complexity have been shot down, I would nominate the bones of the inner ear of mammals. Of course, we know how they evolved.

See here.

The example of obligate symbiosis is also given.
 
kleinman said:
Objection, your honor, the defense lawyer is trying to introduce facts not in evidence.
Overruled! I find Dr. Kleinman in contempt for wasting the the court's time by endlessly compounding his testimony. The witness is hereby disqualified as an expert on the subjects of evolutionary biology, genetics, mathematics, and HIV therapy.
I will only permit Dr. Kleinman to testify as an expert on the subject of being an annoying creationist.

On that subject, the witness is clearly without peer.
 
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Mr. Scott said:
So, before you found out how mutation and selection work via Paul's model and combination thereapy, there was no reason for you to call into question evolutionists' interpretation of the evidence? Is that what you are saying?
Crapmuffins! I knew it was my fault.

~~ Paul
 
I disagree. Although most creationist example of irreducible complexity have been shot down, I would nominate the bones of the inner ear of mammals. Of course, we know how they evolved.

See here.

The example of obligate symbiosis is also given.
good point. I was mentally stuck at the protein level. I guess if you are willing to ignore evolution, you will also consider organelles as irreducibly complex.
 
Annoying Creationists

Kleinman said:
Shalamar, you were created and you should seek to know your Creator.
Belz… said:
If only to smack him upside the head for doing such a mediocre job.
Why would you think that Shalamar is mediocre?
Belz… said:
Kleinman, would you mind explaining how HIV manages to evolve very quickly, again ? Do you contend that it's only under a very few selection pressures ?
You should know the answer to that one Belz, the fewer the selection conditions, the faster it evolves.
Kleinman said:
I thought I’d throw this citation in for those of you who think that mutation and selection is not deterministic.
Belz… said:
Maybe you should've read past what you put in red:
From Kleinman’s citation said:
Although, this approach is faster and cheaper, a clear interpretation of results is not always possible due to the existence of many different mutations and mutation patterns that confer resistance.
Belz… said:
So, which is it ?
Belz, how many variants are there, 10?, 100?, 1000?, millions? Consider that for hemoglobin, there are only a few hundred variants of this gene that still give viability. In time, most or all variants of viable resistant HIV genes will be identified.
Kleinman said:
Delphi, do you believe there is some other mechanism than mutation and selection which can give common descent? Answer with a YES or a NO.
delphi ote said:
This question doesn't make sense! Mutation and selection did not cause common descent. Reproduction "caused" common descent. Mutation and selection caused the diversity of life. If you're asking if I believe there's another mechanism which could have produced that diversity, I would say no. It's possible, but I think it's very unlikely we will find a mechanism besides natural selection acting on mutations.
What sense are you making? All you need is reproduction for reptiles to evolve into birds? You have recombination and natural selection which can and does give great diversity. When I use the terminology “common descent”, I am talking about the notion of some life form that spontaneously arose in the primordial soup which through a sequence of mutation and selection evolves into the complex life forms we see today. That is an irrational and illogical notion.
delphi ote said:
But you still have not answered my direct question. I'm not letting you off the hook. Let's try this again:
delphi ote said:
Do you believe that all of the life on Earth come from a common ancestor? In other words, is all life on earth part of one big family tree? Answer with a YES or a NO. No chickening out this time.

I’m not afraid of answering the question. I’m actually a little surprised you don’t already know the answer. Why after 163 pages of discussion on this topic you would think my answer would be anything but no is quite mysterious. Why would you think I might say yes? Perhaps you think because humans and chimpanzees have the same insulin might make evolutionists think we arose from a common ancestor but then you have to show why humans and chimpanzees have different preproinsulin.
Kleinman said:
The only way your interpretation of this parable fits is The James Randi Educational Forum is the ground ...
Adequate said:
Yes, of course. Duh. The forums correspond, in the parable, to the earth in which you are burying your lord's money.
Kleinman said:
Adequate said:

That's so clear and obvious, I'm astonished that you understood it.

Now, will you answer the question? Why are you hiding this life-saving discovery?

You are easily astonished but why would you think so little of the James Randi Educational Forum?
Kleinman said:
... and then you will have to explain why you have posted more than 10,000 times on this forum.
Adequate said:
Because in none of my posts do I claim to have made a discovery that will help millions of suffering and dying people, and so I feel no need to seek a wider audience for my views.
I haven’t made any discovery. All I am doing is reporting the mathematical and empirical facts of how mutation and selection actually works. I’m not the only one who understands this. What you do claim Adequate is that n+1 selection pressures evolve more rapidly than n selection pressures. You have no empirical evidence of this yet you continue to believe it. I’ll continue working on you for now.
Kleinman said:
So Adequate, what do you think monotherapy has done for the treatment of HIV? You evolutionists are so good at explaining how mutation and selection works. Explain that to the people with HIV who got monotherapy before they got combination therapy; that is if they are still alive.
Adequate said:
Since you ask, I think that combination therapy is better than monotherapy for HIV, just like every other evolutionist does, as you know perfectly well.
Kleinman said:
Adequate said:

We even patiently explained to you why it's better, remember? About, I don't know, a hundred pages back?

Now, how about you answer my question?

I posted a citation from a 50 year old Nobel laureate speech that said the same thing. Why haven’t you evolutionists explained this before? The theory of evolution by mutation and selection is your theory, why haven’t you done a better job explaining how mutation and selection actually works. Oh, that’s right; you say that n+1 selection pressures evolve more rapidly than n selection pressures. Adequate, you couldn’t be more wrong about how mutation and selection works. But I do like using an evolutionist dominated web site to do this.
Kleinman said:
When you examine the mathematical and empirical evidence of how mutation and selection actually works, you find that combination selection pressures profoundly slow the evolutionary process.
joobz said:
Ok. Let's pretend you are correct.
Kleinman said:
joobz said:
Common descent isn't real.
Evolution doesn't happen.
Species remain what they are and do not change.
Just of out curiousity...

Joobz, you just love to speculate and extrapolate from your speculations. Take your list and account for the 150,000,000 base differences between humans and chimpanzees in 500,000 generations and don’t forget to tell us what the selection pressures and target genes for these selection pressures are.
Kotatsu said:
Is it due to ill will that you display this lack of understanding of simple concepts, or are you like this in real life as well?
Kotatsu, once you understand that mutation and selection is simply a sorting/optimization problem, you will understand why this process can not transform large numbers of genes simultaneously. I harbor no ill will toward you or anyone else. I just think your ideas are illogical and irrational. They don’t make mathematical or empirical sense.
Kleinman said:
Now that we know how mutation and selection actually works, that is combination selection pressures profoundly slow the evolutionary process (and this has been shown numerous times both mathematically and empirically). And mutation and selection is the foundation mechanism for the theory of evolution. Since the foundation mechanism can not accomplish what is required for the theory of evolution to be plausible, every interpretation that evolutionists make of the evidence is called into question.
Mr Scott said:
So, before you found out how mutation and selection work via Paul's model and combination thereapy, there was no reason for you to call into question evolutionists' interpretation of the evidence? Is that what you are saying?
Before I looked at Dr Schneider’s and Paul’s model, I didn’t understand how mutation and selection worked. What their model showed was it took huge numbers of generation to evolve the binding sites on all but the tiniest genomes. I systematically studied each variable in the model in order to try to find out why this was happening. It was the multiple selection conditions that were doing this. That’s what prompted me do to a literature search to find out if there was empirical evidence of this. I have always been skeptical of the interpretation of the evidence presented by evolutionists but this is the first time I have done my own analysis of the evidence and it shows that evolutionists have the concept of mutation and selection backwards.
Mr Scott said:
So, before you found out how mutation and selection work via Paul's model and combination thereapy, there was no reason for you to call into question evolutionists' interpretation of the evidence? Is that what you are saying?
Paul said:
Crapmuffins! I knew it was my fault.
Paul, getting the credit and getting the blame is the same thing, it’s just how you interpret the evidence.
joobz said:
The fact that nothing has proven to be irreducibly complex in biology?
Adequate said:
I disagree. Although most creationist example of irreducible complexity have been shot down, I would nominate the bones of the inner ear of mammals. Of course, we know how they evolved.
So I guess you two are ready to explain to us what the components of the DNA replicase system were doing before DNA could be replicated. Tell us what the function of helicase and gyrase were. That should be a good story. Joobz, you can tell us this after you show us how ribose can be generated nonenzymatically.
Kleinman said:
Objection, your honor, the defense lawyer is trying to introduce facts not in evidence.
kjkent1 said:
Overruled! I find Dr. Kleinman in contempt for wastiong the the court's time by constantly compounding his testimony. The witness is hereby disqualified as an expert on the subjects of evolutionary biology, genetics, mathematics, and HIV therapy.
Kleinman said:
kjkent1 said:
I will only permit Dr. Kleinman to testify as an expert on the subject of being an annoying creationist.

On that subject, the witness is clearly without peer.

I’ve appealed to a higher court and your decision has been overruled. So be prepared to be compounded.
http://www.natap.org/2005/HBV/092005_02.htm
Viral kinetics in patients with lamivudine-resistant hepatitis B during adefovir-lamivudine combination therapy said:
Background/Aims: Mathematical analysis of viral kinetics during lamivudine-adefovir combination therapy has not yet been performed in patients with lamivudine-resistant hepatitis B.
Viral kinetics in patients with lamivudine-resistant hepatitis B during adefovir-lamivudine combination therapy said:

Conclusions: Although a recent study did not show any differences in the reduction of HBV DNA comparing monotherapy with adefovir dipivoxil to adefovir-lamivudine combination therapy in patients with lamivudine-resistant chronic hepatitis B, mathematical analysis of early viral kinetics suggests an additional effect of lamivudine on the infected cell loss during adefovir-lamivudine combination therapy.

And
Adefovir-lamivudine combination therapy and hepatitis B viral kinetics said:
In conclusion, I think that the differences between the population kinetics observed by Mihm and Tsiang probably reflect simple differences between quite small cohorts at baseline, and do not necessarily imply a beneficial effect of LAM on second phase kinetics during ADV treatment of YMDD infection. In this case, the raw data are more informative than the population delta. Nevertheless, other published and presented data (and the paradigm of HIV treatment) make me favour the maintenance of LAM after commencement of ADV for treatment of YMDD. For treatment-naive patients, the combination probably retards the emergence of YMDD species and may delay or prevent the emergence of ADV-resistant virus. Perhaps, trials in progress will show that combination treatment for HBV is superior to monotherapy, and will confirm that the treatment paradigm for HIV patients is relevant to the treatment of our patients with chronic hepatitis B infection.
http://jac.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/57/2/221
Genotypic resistance to lamivudine among hepatitis B virus isolates in Mexico said:
A combination therapy may prove to be more effective than monotherapy in suppressing viral replication and may decrease or delay the incidence of drug resistance.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSearch=15067628&ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus
Combination therapy with lamivudine and famciclovir for chronic hepatitis B infection. said:
BACKGROUND & AIMS: Lamivudine suppresses hepatitis B replication, but drug-resistant mutants emerge with long-term therapy. In vitro data suggest that lamivudine and famciclovir might synergistically inhibit hepadnaviral replication. We reviewed our experience with lamivudine and famciclovir in 24 patients with chronic hepatitis B infection. METHODS: Patients with chronic hepatitis B infection and detectable HBV DNA received lamivudine and famciclovir combination therapy. The primary end point was HBV DNA suppression at week 48. Follow-up was reviewed for those who remained on combination therapy beyond the first 48 weeks. RESULTS: Thirteen treatment-naïve HBeAg-positive subjects received 48 weeks of therapy; all had undetectable HBV DNA levels (less than 2.5 pg/mL) at week 48. Three patients underwent HBeAg seroconversion at week 48 and discontinued therapy. Ten patients remained on combination therapy; 3 developed YMDD (tyrosine-methionine-aspartate-aspartate) mutations at year 2, although HBV DNA levels remained below 2.5 pg/mL at a mean of 39 months. A second heterogeneous group of 5 subjects including interferon therapy failures and those with HBeAg-negative infection also received 48 weeks of combination therapy, with 1 subject developing redetection of HBV DNA by week 48. YMDD mutations were noted in the other 4 subjects at year 2, although just 1 subject had HBV DNA greater than 2.5 pg/mL at 39 months of therapy. CONCLUSIONS: In this small pilot study, 48 weeks of therapy with lamivudine and famciclovir was effective in suppressing HBV replication. A randomized controlled trial is required to define the role of combination therapy with lamivudine and famciclovir in delaying the clinical emergence of resistant strains.
Compounded you evolutionists again.
 
Joobz, you just love to speculate and extrapolate from your speculations. Take your list and account for the 150,000,000 base differences between humans and chimpanzees in 500,000 generations and don’t forget to tell us what the selection pressures and target genes for these selection pressures are.

So I guess you two are ready to explain to us what the components of the DNA replicase system were doing before DNA could be replicated. Tell us what the function of helicase and gyrase were. That should be a good story. Joobz, you can tell us this after you show us how ribose can be generated nonenzymatically.
So you can't answer any of my questions?

ETA: pretending your numbers are correct:
~4% difference between genomes over 500,000 generations (since the split is what I assume you are refering to) results in a 0.000008% change per generation. Considering that human genome variablity is somewhere arround 0.08% between individuals, this mutation rate relates to 1/10,000th of the variation between humans. These numbers are far from impossible.
 
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kleinman said:
I haven’t made any discovery. All I am doing is reporting the mathematical and empirical facts of how mutation and selection actually works. I haven’t made any discovery. All I am doing is reporting the mathematical and empirical facts of how mutation and selection actually works.
All of which is entirely defeated by fact that ev and all of your citations show faster evolutionary change under the influence of a dominant pressure.


It's so obvious that this is what happens in natural environments that it should come as no surprise that all of your cited experiments show rapid change under that circumstance.

Even in a controlled environment, it is impossible to absolutely eliminate all but one selective pressure. The proof of this is that mutation itself occurs. The target organisms are under continuous attack from universal background radiation which contributes to mutational change. This itself is a selective pressure as well as the engine of genetic change.

The important criteria is not the number of pressures applied, but their relative intensity. Suppose that the most successful triple therapy test were run with two of the three therapies in homeopathic dosages. Do you seriously believe that the result would be the same as occurs with relatively similar dosages?

Both ev and reality are consistent -- evolution happens under a dominant selective pressure -- a circumstance which is relatively routine in nature.

It's a wonderful day that the annoying creationist bites the dust.
 
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Does anyone else notice how Kleinman has been conveniently ignoring my last post?
Religious fanatics are adept in their singular ability to slough off dissent. Almost as good as life insurance salespersons!

The preacher who is exposed as a charlatan will immediately admit his sins and then propose: "From whom you would rather learn to walk the road to salvation -- the saint or the sinner? Who would be the more likely person to show you the way?" Blah, blah, blah, blah!
 
If life, and as a result, humans, were 'created' and thus 'intelligently designed', then why did the designer do such a TERRIBLE job at it?

We are FAR too complex of beings, too many things go run, strange duplication of non essential parts, no backups for essential organs, and weird, strange crossing of plumping, where the same tubes deal with waste, and reproduction.

It seems Klienman thinks that evolution happens just like pokemon. Bang. One moment one species, another moment, a different one.

Too bad all the evidence points against creationism, and intelligent design.
 
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