Annoying creationists

Status
Not open for further replies.
Hewitt said:
It is obvious and also universally agreed that all livings things have been the subject of design. At issue, in the dispute between creationsim and evolution is whether that content of design arises from the intervention of an intelligent agent or from adaptive design by a process of evolutionary selection.
The latter clearly happens, so the real question is whether (a) some designer set it all up at the beginning so it would work out this way; or (b) some designer pokes a genome every now and again to make things wander in a particular direction.

Genes are molecules? Go read a book.
Say what?

~~ Paul
 
Why not, pedantry seems to be the only level of discussion round here. I was hoping for an intelligent discussion but I am clearly not going to get it.
This attitude is uncalled for. I was asking a legitimate question about your usage.

If you make a blanket statement like "It is obvious and also universally agreed that all livings things have been the subject of design," you better be able to back it up with your reasons. How can we debate an issue when there is an obvious inability to agree with issues?

Design's definition implies an intent. A creative force. Since evolution doesn't require this force to occur, there is no design to it.
 
If they aren't composed of molecules, what do you contend a genes are?
I think there may be a reasonable missunderstanding here. He's using the information on DNA analogy that provides an understanding of DNA. The one that states, gene's are encoded into the DNA's sequence but aren't the DNA. This can be thought of in computer terms. A digital picture of my foot on a harddrive is composed of electrons organized into a pattern, but this digital file wouldn't be considered mere electrons. That's just the medium it is written onto.

Now, I think that this reasoning (while useful for interpretations) is a false analogy. The digital foot photo is a seperate bit of information that was written onto the hardrive and is not of the harddrive. However, genes encoded on DNA/RNA can not be seperated from the molecules by which they are on. This is because genes are not exact a priori sequences that had to be hit initially. They were just the sequences that provided some advantage in what ever system they were in to begin with.
 
Joobz said:
I think there may be a reasonable missunderstanding here. He's using the information on DNA analogy that provides an understanding of DNA. The one that states, gene's are encoded into the DNA's sequence but aren't the DNA. This can be thought of in computer terms. A digital picture of my foot on a harddrive is composed of electrons organized into a pattern, but this digital file wouldn't be considered mere electrons. That's just the medium it is written onto.
So he's making a distinction between the DNA molecule and the information in a gene? Okay, sure. Tread carefully, though.

~~ Paul
 
Annoying Creationists

Kleinman said:
Then if you understood what he is computing, he is assuming every base substitution is selected for and retained. None of the base substitutions are selected against and are lost from the gene pool.
Paul said:
Imagine two humans have a child with 100 mutations, and it survives. Imagine two other humans have a child with 100 mutations, and it survives. (There may certainly be other children with 100 mutations who do not survive.) Now imagine those two children have a child of their own with no new mutations. How many mutations does it inherit?

Now that is an in depth analysis. Imagine two humans who have a child with 100 mutations, 99 good mutations and 1 fatal mutation and it dies. Imagine two other humans have a child with 99 good mutations and 1 fatal mutation, and it dies. (There may certainly be other children with 100 mutations who do not survive.) Now imagine that no children that suffer 100 mutations survive. How many mutations are passed on?
Kleinman said:
Paul, this is your computer model. You have written the online version to simulate evolution. Why is it that I have to drag you kicking and screaming as a moderator on the James Randi Science and Mathematics forum to do these cases? Do you have some type of agenda?
Paul said:
Who's kicking and screaming? It's just a matter of resources, as I've repeated to you 20 times. I'm running a Pascal Ev simulation right now.

But tell me: You're the one claiming there is some kind of problem. Why aren't you responsible for doing the work to substantiate your claim?

Why Paul, it’s you who is kicking and screaming. Your computer with 1gig of memory will do the 2meg population case but none larger for the 1k genome length. I doubt it will resolve the population issue. I think it will take a super computer with at least 1000gig, perhaps more of memory before this issue will be resolve to your satisfaction.

Paul, I have substantiated my claims to the limits of my computer. It’s just a matter of resources, as I’ve repeated to you 20 times.
Kleinman said:
However, the probability of a good mutation occurring at a particular locus very quickly approaches 1 and further increases in population no longer increase this probability by significant amounts.
Kleinman said:
joobz said:
Can you show your calculations for this. Define "very quickly" followed by a definition for "significant amounts."

Dr. Kitten's stated that as pop---> infinity, generation to form binding site ----> 1. How do you go from this to population doesn't increase rate of binding site evolution? Your explanation doesn't seem to connect well.
provide your calculations to explain this because I'm completely missing it.

These are not my calculations, these are calculations done using Dr Schneider’s ev computer model and I’ll repost the series with the largest populations done to date.
G=1000, mutation rate = 1 mutation per 1000 bases per generation, gamma = 16, binding site width = 6:
Population \ generation for convergence
2 \ failed to converge
4 , 66547
8 , 15916
16 , 17257
32 , 16416
64 , 9082
128 , 9378
256 , 4078
512 , 3685
1024 , 2793
2048 , 2080
4096 , 2565
6000 , 1541
8192 , 1798
16384 , 1001
32768 , 743
65536 , 633
131072 , 483
262144 , 702
524288 , 642
1048576 , 438

Note that increasing the population from 4 to 8 creatures decreases the generations for convergence by a factor of three. No other doubling of the population gives that large of a decrease and the factors of decrease become smaller and smaller as population is increased. The question is whether continued increases in population will approach Adequate’s value of 1 generation for an infinite population and if so, how quickly the generations will approach 1 with increasing population.
John Hewitt said:
Please take this as an answer to Yahzi also.

It is obvious and also universally agreed that all livings things have been the subject of design. At issue, in the dispute between creationsim and evolution is whether that content of design arises from the intervention of an intelligent agent or from adaptive design by a process of evolutionary selection.

The point I am making is
1. That modern evolutionary theory takes the gene as its fundamental concept.
2. That genes, like organisms have plainly been the subject of design - either intelligent design or adaptive design.
3. That if modern evolutionary theory is correctly constructed the gene precedes evolution. Therefore the content of design present in the gene could not have arisen from adaptation.
4. That the implication is either
a. the gene was intelligently designed or
b. modern evolutionary theory is not correctly constructed.

Myself, I favour option b, combined with a greater level of humility on the part of evolutionary theorists.
kjkent1 said:
Many complex molecules arise environmentally without any apparent intelligent intervention, so why can't self-replicating RNA/DNA arise similarly?

Is there some universal law which bars this outcome?
The complex molecules that arise environmentally have no where near the complexity of the molecules that are seen in living things. The limitation on RNA/DNA arising “environmentally” is mathematical. This is the basis of my argument using an evolutionist written, peer reviewed and published computer model of random point mutations and natural selection.

So, kjkent1, were you just blowing smoke or do you have access to a super computer which can give us some more data points which disprove the theory of evolution. Here is the challenge; an evolutionist written and peer review/published computer model of random point mutations and natural selection shows mathematically that the theory of evolution is impossible when realistic parameters are used in the model. I think there would be as much interest in this as a chess computer program that can defeat a grand master, perhaps more since this is such a highly charged political issue.
John Hewitt said:
There is no evidence that RNA/DNA has any self-replicating ability.
Delphi ote said:
That is false. Gerald F. Joyce has done many experiments in this area. While it's not yet a perfect scenario for the origin of life, to say there's "no evidence" only demonstrates your ignorance.

Proteins have been very clearly shown to be self replicating, as have some other types of molecules.

Delphi, if life arose by these self replicating molecules, why isn’t the world filled with nothing but self replicating molecules? How do you get the first self replicator? They certainly couldn’t evolve by random point mutations and natural selection, ev shows this.

Delphi, I’ve been meaning to ask you. Is that picture you posted earlier really you?
John Hewitt said:
It is obvious and also universally agreed that all livings things have been the subject of design. At issue, in the dispute between creationsim and evolution is whether that content of design arises from the intervention of an intelligent agent or from adaptive design by a process of evolutionary selection.
Paul said:
The latter clearly happens, so the real question is whether (a) some designer set it all up at the beginning so it would work out this way; or (b) some designer pokes a genome every now and again to make things wander in a particular direction.

Paul, your designer that “pokes a genome every now and again to make things wander in a particular direction” is really, really slow, ev shows this.
 
The complex molecules that arise environmentally have no where near the complexity of the molecules that are seen in living things. The limitation on RNA/DNA arising “environmentally” is mathematical. This is the basis of my argument using an evolutionist written, peer reviewed and published computer model of random point mutations and natural selection.

So, Kent, were you just blowing smoke or do you have access to a super computer which can give us some more data points which disprove the theory of evolution. Here is the challenge; an evolutionist written and peer review/published computer model of random point mutations and natural selection shows mathematically that the theory of evolution is impossible when realistic parameters are used in the model. I think there would be as much interest in this as a chess computer program that can defeat a grand master, perhaps more since this is such a highly charged political issue.

My prior post on this issue explains what is required to obtain the resources you wish to access. If you're asking me whether I can walk from my cube to a lab containing a computer with 1000 GB of RAM and an array of 100+ parallel processors, then the answer is "no."

If you're asking me whether I have access to management personnel who can allocate resources to conduct your experiment, then the answer is "yes."

But, I'm not going to do anyone's work for them. If you, or someone else wants me to go to bat for them to try to get this experiment done, then I need a pro-forma proposal underwritten by someone with a reputation that can get Marketing to find the experiment sufficiently enticing to allocate resources with a reasonable expectation of some media attention.

So, if Dr. Schneider, or someone of similar repute, is willing to go on record that a rigorous experiment at the limits of the EV algorithm will advance the understandings of theoretical evolutionary biological research, then my Marketing department probably will take the bait.

Otherwise not.
 
So he's making a distinction between the DNA molecule and the information in a gene? Okay, sure. Tread carefully, though.
He's assuming genes are an abstraction to prove that their origin is not physically possible? If that's the case, I have a feeling we're going to be treated to one of the worst arguments for intelligent design yet.
 
Delphi, if life arose by these self replicating molecules, why isn’t the world filled with nothing but self replicating molecules?

But it is and we are it. We are a concert of highly organized, self-replicating molecules.

BTW, I'm still waiting for your mathematical proof that evolution takes too long. All you've shown so far is that unrealistic usage of a simplified evolution model takes a long time to generate results.

Please feel free to present your proof when you are ready.
 
How do you get the first self replicator?
As I mentioned previously, this is one among many open questions in biology. "Poof" is not an answer.

ETA Here's the relevant bit from before:
We don't know how life started. Was it a fluke? Was it inevitable? We don't know what the odds were, we don't even know precisely what mechanisms were involved in starting this long chain reaction that ultimately produced you and me. These are open questions in science. But people have wondered about them for thousands (maybe millions) of years, and we will answer some of them in our lifetime. You might know the answers before you die, and nobody else ever did.

Anyone advertising simple answers to these questions is simply avoiding enduring the uncertainty. If people who assume they know better could stop badgering those of us actually trying to figure this stuff out, come off their high horse, and get to work, we might answer the questions sooner. Chip in and help out instead of nagging about how uncomfortable you are with certain facts we already figured out. We all want to know the real answers to these questions. Deep down, we're not comfortable with our little personal pet theories. Once we know the real answers, we can stop fighting over the made up answers we cling to in the face of that yawning gulf of uncertainty stretching out in all directions.

Emotionally, I can understand that instinct to cling. Rationally, it's the ultimate folly. An open question is an opportunity, not a threat. It's exciting. Let go of those comfortable delusions and look around. There's a chance we can all know better how we fit into this big mystery, and nobody knows how it's going to turn out.
 
Last edited:
. . . The complex molecules that arise environmentally have no where near the complexity of the molecules that are seen in living things. The limitation on RNA/DNA arising “environmentally” is mathematical. This is the basis of my argument using an evolutionist written, peer reviewed and published computer model of random point mutations and natural selection. . . .

Then your argument was pointless from the start. This is the same flawed argument (and thoroughly debunked) that William Dembski nattered on about for several years.
 
Annoying Creationists

Kleinman said:
The complex molecules that arise environmentally have no where near the complexity of the molecules that are seen in living things. The limitation on RNA/DNA arising “environmentally” is mathematical. This is the basis of my argument using an evolutionist written, peer reviewed and published computer model of random point mutations and natural selection.

So, Kent, were you just blowing smoke or do you have access to a super computer which can give us some more data points which disprove the theory of evolution. Here is the challenge; an evolutionist written and peer review/published computer model of random point mutations and natural selection shows mathematically that the theory of evolution is impossible when realistic parameters are used in the model. I think there would be as much interest in this as a chess computer program that can defeat a grand master, perhaps more since this is such a highly charged political issue.
kjkent1 said:
My prior post on this issue explains what is required to obtain the resources you wish to access. If you're asking me whether I can walk from my cube to a lab containing a computer with 1000 GB of RAM and an array of 100+ parallel processors, then the answer is "no."
To bad, but that’s the computer requirements to do this calculation.
kjkent1 said:
If you're asking me whether I have access to management personnel who can allocate resources to conduct your experiment, then the answer is "yes."

But, I'm not going to do anyone's work for them. If you, or someone else wants me to go to bat for them to try to get this experiment done, then I need a pro-forma proposal underwritten by someone with a reputation that can get Marketing to find the experiment sufficiently enticing to allocate resources with a reasonable expectation of some media attention.
You are the one who opened your mouth first about this. Get your own signatures for your own marketing plan. Do you expect me to do your work?
kjkent1 said:
So, if Dr. Schneider, or someone of similar repute, is willing to go on record that a rigorous experiment at the limits of the EV algorithm will advance the understandings of theoretical evolutionary biological research, then my Marketing department probably will take the bait.

Otherwise not.
Dr Schneider is only interested in indoctrinating naïve school children with his superficial analysis of ev, so if you are waiting for some reputable evolutionist to sign on to this study, don’t hold your breath. Someone who doesn’t have an evolutionist agenda and access to the computing resources will do this study and verify what has already been shown with the smaller cases from ev. It doesn’t have to be your company.
Kleinman said:
Delphi, if life arose by these self replicating molecules, why isn’t the world filled with nothing but self replicating molecules?
Kleinman said:
joobz said:
But it is and we are it. We are a concert of highly organized, self-replicating molecules.

BTW, I'm still waiting for your mathematical proof that evolution takes too long. All you've shown so far is that unrealistic usage of a simplified evolution model takes a long time to generate results.

Please feel free to present your proof when you are ready.

Joobz, you are sloppy in your usage in the term “self-replicating molecules”. There are no self replicating molecules in your body. There is no DNA in your body that self replicates; there are no proteins in your body that self replicates. There are no molecules in your body that self replicate.

Don’t be so harsh about Dr Schneider’s “simplified evolution model”, after all it was peer reviewed and published in Nucleic Acid Research. Dr Schneider went so far to apply his model to the evolution of a human genome. Lest Myriad and other evolutionarians say that I do not include Dr Schneider’s full statement about his computation, I post it again:
Dr Schneider said:
Likewise, at this rate, roughly an entire human genome of ~4x10^9 bits (assuming an average of 1 bit/base, which is clearly an overestimate) could evolve in a billion years, even without the advantages of large environmentally diverse worldwide populations, sexual recombination and interspecies genetic transfer. . However, since this rate is unlikely to be maintained for eukaryotes, these factors are undoubtedly important in accounting for human evolution.
Joobz are you ever going to run a single case with ev or are you going to make all your judgments with your superficial sound good to me type of analysis.
 
Kleinman said:
Now that is an in depth analysis. Imagine two humans who have a child with 100 mutations, 99 good mutations and 1 fatal mutation and it dies. Imagine two other humans have a child with 99 good mutations and 1 fatal mutation, and it dies. (There may certainly be other children with 100 mutations who do not survive.) Now imagine that no children that suffer 100 mutations survive. How many mutations are passed on?
But you cannot imagine your final scenario, because we know that the typical live human has about 100 mutations. Now, you can argue with this particular number; be my guest. I've seen estimates up to 200.

Edited to add: Here's a paper that estimates 128. Note one of the author's names.

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1288368

Why Paul, it’s you who is kicking and screaming. Your computer with 1gig of memory will do the 2meg population case but none larger for the 1k genome length. I doubt it will resolve the population issue. I think it will take a super computer with at least 1000gig, perhaps more of memory before this issue will be resolve to your satisfaction.
The issue is resolved to my satisfaction. It appears that you are one who is dissatisfied.

Paul, I have substantiated my claims to the limits of my computer. It’s just a matter of resources, as I’ve repeated to you 20 times.
All righty then.

Paul, your designer that “pokes a genome every now and again to make things wander in a particular direction” is really, really slow, ev shows this.
So you're saying the designer set things up from the beginning? In that case, something preplanned but extraordinary must have happened at some point in the past to make things go quickly. Surely we can find evidence of this event in the genomes of extant organisms? Surely we can come up with hypotheses to explain why there would be a sudden spurt of evolution that would then ease up again?

~~ Paul
 
Last edited:
People, life is too short to read 19 pages of this.
As I understand, someone wrote a computer program to model evolution and the results are open to interpretation.

Did I miss anything?
 
Kleinman said:
Joobz, you are sloppy in your usage in the term “self-replicating molecules”. There are no self replicating molecules in your body. There is no DNA in your body that self replicates; there are no proteins in your body that self replicates. There are no molecules in your body that self replicate.
The folks working on self-replicating RNA vaccines are going to be unhappy to hear this.

~~ Paul
 
You are the one who opened your mouth first about this. Get your own signatures for your own marketing plan. Do you expect me to do your work?

If this is an example of how you make friends and influence people, you're gonna have a bitter and lonely existence.


Your conlusion is false. This isn't my work -- it's yours. You asked if I was blowing smoke. I've explained exactly what I have and what I can do. If that's not good enough for you, then you're welcome to try some other avenue. But, to be clear, "you" are the person who states that a computer run on a supercomputer will validate "your" hypothesis. I'm just a curious observer.


If you want to use my company's resources, you'll need to provide a compelling rationale, and I'll be happy to try to advance it through the system, because, it will make me look good, and that translates into mo' money for me. I work for pay -- not to win arguments against anonymous posters on an internet BBS.

Dr Schneider is only interested in indoctrinating naïve school children with his superficial analysis of ev, so if you are waiting for some reputable evolutionist to sign on to this study, don’t hold your breath. Someone who doesn’t have an evolutionist agenda and access to the computing resources will do this study and verify what has already been shown with the smaller cases from ev. It doesn’t have to be your company.

Your comments re Dr. Schneider are unreasonably hostile in my view (i.e., they're potentially defamatory, and legally actionable). I doubt that he has some underlying agenda to deceive the world's high school children.


You wanted an opportunity to answer your question sooner rather than later. I may be able to provide that opportunity. If you want me to work the issue, then I expect to be compensated. Simple as that.
 
Last edited:
Genes are molecules? Go read a book.

OK did that now can you explain that genes are not molecules?

Heck I thought we were all molecules of some sort ot the other.

Anything other than molocues here?
 
I think there may be a reasonable missunderstanding here. He's using the information on DNA analogy that provides an understanding of DNA. The one that states, gene's are encoded into the DNA's sequence but aren't the DNA. This can be thought of in computer terms. A digital picture of my foot on a harddrive is composed of electrons organized into a pattern, but this digital file wouldn't be considered mere electrons. That's just the medium it is written onto.

Now, I think that this reasoning (while useful for interpretations) is a false analogy. The digital foot photo is a seperate bit of information that was written onto the hardrive and is not of the harddrive. However, genes encoded on DNA/RNA can not be seperated from the molecules by which they are on. This is because genes are not exact a priori sequences that had to be hit initially. They were just the sequences that provided some advantage in what ever system they were in to begin with.

Actually, one person on this thread seems to think that a gene equals a molecule and that is not the only misunderstanding floating around here.

Technically, and the distinction does matter, DNA sequence is data not information. I consider data, not genes to be the fundamental quantity of evolution. In my view, genes format some of the data in DNA. The data in a gene becomes information when it is interpreted into some biochemical activity and, I would argue, it is the biochmical activity that is the information. The code that performs that translation must have arisen at the same time that base sequence became significant. Thus base sequence is not the only data on a genome that is biologically significant. The choice of bases and determinants of the code are also important. At a grosser level, so is the sequence of genes on a genome.

Nobody does experiments with self-replicating nucleic acids. Here I write purely from memory but the first studies to make that kind of claim came from Spiegelman's laboratory. He worked on Qbeta, a phage that produces a RNA directed RNA polymerase. So he took his polymerase, some RNA, I think from the phage, and the necessary chemical substrates then he let it run and in that test tube it evolved. As I recall, it selected smaller molecular weight RNAs but that detail is not important.

What is important is that he provided the necessary enyme and substrates, no nucleic acid can do without such hand-holding and this kind of thing is not workable as a theory for evolution. Crick tried to calculate the probability of such self-contained systems arising by chance and he surrendered, eventually proposing, as a MORE realistic alternative, that life must have come to earth in spaceships.

The other popular nonsense is enzyme hypercycles which, I vaguely recall come from Schuster on the continent. These too are highly unlikely and Orgel, another well known advocate of spaceships, described such thinking as an appeal to magic. I agree with him about the magic but not about the spaceships.

So note clearly, Kleinman is right. There are no self-replicating molecules in the cell. Not RNA, DNA or protein. I know of no sensible reason to believe that any such molecule could ever self-replicate. The smallest known self-replicating entities in biology today are cells and I do not believe that there was ever a replicator comprising one single molecule or even a small number of molecules.

Finally, Paul, I am sure there are some exceptions but nucleic acids are not generally immunogenic and are therefore unlikely to be of value as a vaccines. In the main, it is proteins and complex carbohydrates, such as the sidechains on glycoproteins and glycolipids, that generate immune responses. I therefore think your comments on vaccines must be wide of the mark.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom