Annoying creationists

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Annoying Creationists

Kleinman said:
We are all waiting for you to tell us any other possible way that we got here. Maybe you can make it a false trichotomy?
Belz… said:
Just because you can't think of a third way doesn't mean there isn't one.
Kleinman said:
Belz… said:

But that's besides the point, as anyone who's ever studied logic knows. You can't prove a theory by disproving another one.

Sure you can prove something by disproving something else, it called the process of elimination and the theory of evolution has been eliminated. So now we got here either by creation or something you can’t think of.
Belz… said:
Funny, because lots of evil goes un-judged.
Kleinman said:
How do you know?
Belz… said:
Because to claim otherwise would be an argument from ignorance.
Tell us of what evil that hasn’t gone un-judged?
Kleinman said:
Do you think the fiend god gets away with evil?
Belz… said:
He doesn't, because he doesn't exist.
How do you know he doesn’t exist?
rocketdodger said:
You claim sorting algorithms are always slowed by additional sorting conditions. Dr. Adequate and I have written independent programs which use sorting algorithms yet are not slowed by additional sorting conditions. You demand real world examples -- our programs are real world examples you fool. This issue is completely unrelated to evolution. It is about your claims regarding sorting algorithms.
Adequate has posted a silly graph and you have posted the following:
rocketdodger said:
I found a combination of parameters last night that led to over 100 pressures being faster than a single one, but I forgot what it was
frown.gif
Neither of you have done a systematic presentation of your models or given a real example of your models. On the other hand, I have posted hundreds of cases from ev including those which show that single selection conditions in the model evolve many orders of magnitude faster than all three selection conditions simultaneously. If you are having trouble running ev, either Paul or I can help you with this. In addition I have posted and will continue to post real examples which demonstrate what Dr Schneider’s peer reviewed and published model shows, which are combination selection pressures profoundly slow the evolutionary sorting/optimization process.
rocketdodger said:
You claim the probabililty of creation is greater than the probability of evolution. You have failed to come up with any sort of independent value for probability of creation. Because you can't come up with a value, you rely on a false dichotomy. We are still waiting for you to show us how to generate a value independent of evolution.
Sure I have, you gave the probability of the theory of evolution to be true at 1.0 x 10^-999999999, the only other possibility is that we were created. So unless you want to claim that the probability that we are here is less than 1, then the probability that we were created is 1 – (1.0 x 10^-999999999) ≈ 1. Do you want to propose another way we came to be?
rocketdodger said:
You claim that the studies you cite show multiple selective pressures to slow evolution profoundly. They do no such thing. What they show is that lethal pressures, when combined, prevent populations from evolving resistance -- by killing them. If a population dies, obviously there will be no more evolution. The few studies you do cite that do not use lethal pressures fail to measure anything that could be construed as a "rate" of evolution.
You still don’t understand that none of the drug therapies used to treat HIV kills the virus. They only inhibit the virus’s ability to reproduce. Either way, selection pressures can kill the members of the population or reduce the ability of members of the population to reproduce, the end result is the reduction in fitness of the population. Combination selection pressures reduce the fitness of a population to reproduce.
rocketdodger said:
You claim that the ev program can be used to generate data regarding the effects of the number of selective pressures on a population. The ev program only features 3 pressures, and they target the same loci. Only a fool would consider this a large enough input domain for generalizations about selective pressures in general. Furthermore, the model used in the ev program was never intended to show anything about selective pressures. Paul, the programmer who wrote the java version, has told you this. Yet, in your foolish vanity you presume to think you know, better than he does, what is in the source code.
I though you said you understood how ev works. Every locus in the genome is subject to the selection pressures in ev when all three selection pressures are imposed. Only when you set selection pressures in the model to zero are only certain loci targeted. Apparently in your studies of ev you failed to read Dr Schneider’s publication on his model. He published the following statement concerning his model:
Dr Schneider said:
The weight matrix gene for an organism is translated and then every position of that organism's genome is evaluated by the matrix.
So you got this wrong about the ev model and Dr Schneider said the following for how he intended to have ev used.
Dr Schneider said:
Variations of the program could be used to investigate how population size, genome length, number of sites, size of recognition regions, mutation rate, selective pressure, overlapping sites and other factors affect the evolution.
I added the highlighting for you rocketwhomissesthetarget. There are many interesting things you can learn about the mathematics of mutation and selection if you understand how ev works. So far, you have not demonstrated any of this understanding.
Kleinman said:
So here is an example where combination selection pressures not only slow the evolutionary process, it reverses the evolutionary process.
rocketdodger said:
Evolution can't be reversed, you fool, any more than you can walk a negative distance. In that study they simply inverted the direction of a selective pressure. You seriously need to 1) read and 2) think before you cite.
“Antibiotic interactions that select against resistance”
Remy Chait, Allison Craney, Roy Kishony. Nature. London: Apr 5, 2007. Vol. 446, Iss. 7136; pg. 668, 4 pgs
Abstract said:
Multidrug combinations are increasingly important in combating the spread of antibiotic-resistance in bacterial pathogens. On a broader scale, such combinations are also important in understanding microbial ecology and evolution. Although the effects of multidrug combinations on bacterial growth have been studied extensively, relatively little is known about their impact on the differential selection between sensitive and resistant bacterial populations. Normally, the presence of a drug confers an advantage on its resistant mutants in competition with the sensitive wild-type population. Here we show, by using a direct competition assay between doxycycline-resistant and doxycycline-sensitive Escherichia coli, that this differential selection can be inverted in a hyper-antagonistic class of drug combinations. Used in such a combination, a drug can render the combined treatment selective against the drug's own resistance allele. Further, this [size=+3]inversion of selection
Abstract said:
seems largely insensitive to the underlying resistance mechanism and occurs, at sublethal concentrations, while maintaining inhibition of the wild type. These seemingly paradoxical results can be rationalized in terms of a simple geometric argument. Our findings demonstrate a previously unappreciated feature of the fitness landscape for the evolution of resistance and point to a trade-off between the effect of drug interactions on absolute potency and the relative competitive selection that they impose on emerging resistant populations.
[/SIZE]

Since simply color highlighting is not enough for rocketwhomissesthetarget, what do you think these authors mean by[size=+3]inversion of selection?[/SIZE]
 
Adequate has posted a silly graph and you have posted the following:

No. Both of us provided you with source code and a number of example outputs. I even compiled a .exe for you to run on your own.


Neither of you have done a systematic presentation of your models or given a real example of your models.

No. Both of us have described the workings of our model in great detail, in addition to providing the source code for you to examine. In addition, both of us have given you a real example of our models -- the programs we wrote according to them.

You just don't get it, do you? Forget about evolution, mutation and selection, beggaminuses, whatever. Concentrate on sorting algorithms. You claim sorting algorithms are always slowed by additional sorting conditions. Both algorithms we have shown you are sorting algorithms, and neither are slowed by additional sorting conditions. How can you explain this?


On the other hand, I have posted hundreds of cases from ev including those which show that single selection conditions in the model evolve many orders of magnitude faster than all three selection conditions simultaneously.

No. Nobody, not a single person in the history of this thread other than yourself, thinks these ev run cases show this. The extent of your argument here, Kleinman, is "I set two of the three doohickies that say 'pressure' to zero, and the thingy finishes sooner." Can you explain to all of us why setting the weight distribution to 10-1-1 instead of 10-0-0 completely refutes your claim?


Sure I have, you gave the probability of the theory of evolution to be true at 1.0 x 10^-999999999, the only other possibility is that we were created. So unless you want to claim that the probability that we are here is less than 1, then the probability that we were created is 1 – (1.0 x 10^-999999999) ≈ 1. Do you want to propose another way we came to be?

I see. You have used a probability independent of creationism to find the probability of creationism. The limits of your genius know no bounds, Kleinman.


You still don’t understand that none of the drug therapies used to treat HIV kills the virus. They only inhibit the virus’s ability to reproduce.

Which is why I said:
lethal pressures, when combined, prevent populations from evolving resistance -- by killing them.

Tell me, Kleinman, if a population stops reproducing, how can it evolve?


Either way, selection pressures can kill the members of the population or reduce the ability of members of the population to reproduce, the end result is the reduction in fitness of the population. Combination selection pressures reduce the fitness of a population to reproduce.

Yes, and when that fitness is reduced to stagnation, as in every study you are relying on, evolution will obviously proceed very slow. Kleinman, can you cite even a single real world study that doesn't involve pressures designed to destroy a population?


I though you said you understood how ev works. Every locus in the genome is subject to the selection pressures in ev when all three selection pressures are imposed. Only when you set selection pressures in the model to zero are only certain loci targeted. Apparently in your studies of ev you failed to read Dr Schneider’s publication on his model. He published the following statement concerning his model:

I said:
The ev program only features 3 pressures, and they target the same loci.

If all the pressures target all the loci, then they are... targeting the same loci. ??


So you got this wrong about the ev model and Dr Schneider said the following for how he intended to have ev used.

Do you see an "s" after "pressure" in that statement you quoted, you fool? To look at the effect of pressureS you need pressureS.


Since simply color highlighting is not enough for rocketwhomissesthetarget, what do you think these authors mean by[size=+3]inversion of selection?[/SIZE]

I am just guessing, but I bet the same thing I meant when I said
In that study they simply inverted the direction of a selective pressure.
.

Can you understand English? They took an environment selecting for individuals with resistance to a drug, introduced some more drugs, and the result was an environment selecting for the opposite -- individuals without the resistance.
 
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]“Antibiotic interactions that select against resistance”[/SIZE][/FONT]
Remy Chait, Allison Craney, Roy Kishony. Nature. London: Apr 5, 2007. Vol. 446, Iss. 7136; pg. 668, 4 pgs

Did you actually read that paper? It's pretty interesting, but it has no bearing on what you're trying to argue.

They started with two populations of e. coli - one resistant to doxycycline and one not. It was known that doxycycline suppresses the effects of Cipro, a more powerful antibiotic, when both are administered simultaneously to a wild (non-resistant) strain of e. coli. What they found here is that this effect - of doxycycline suppressing the effects of Cipro - didn't work for the resistant strain, meaning that the resistant strain was in sum more strongly affected by the combination than the non-resistant strain was. That's interesting because it may offer a way to fight resistant strains, which are a growing problem due to rapid evolution of bacterial strains.

Interesting result, but unfortunately for your argument it's got nothing to do with the rate of evolution of anything.
 
wow, a lot of words. A lot of obvious lies and a complete avoidance of justifing his theory assumptions.
 
Annoying Creationists

Kleinman said:
Adequate has posted a silly graph and you have posted the following:
rocketdodger said:
No. Both of us provided you with source code and a number of example outputs. I even compiled a .exe for you to run on your own.
So run your .exe, generate the data and prove to us that your model shows that n+1 selection pressures evolve more rapidly than n selection pressures. The following does not qualify as a number of example outputs:
rocketdodger said:
I found a combination of parameters last night that led to over 100 pressures being faster than a single one, but I forgot what it was
frown.gif
I’ve already done a parametric study of a peer reviewed and published model of random point mutations and natural selection. You need to do the parametric study for your own model.
Kleinman said:
Neither of you have done a systematic presentation of your models or given a real example of your models.
rocketdodger said:
No. Both of us have described the workings of our model in great detail, in addition to providing the source code for you to examine. In addition, both of us have given you a real example of our models -- the programs we wrote according to them.
Kleinman said:
rocketdodger said:

You just don't get it, do you? Forget about evolution, mutation and selection, beggaminuses, whatever. Concentrate on sorting algorithms. You claim sorting algorithms are always slowed by additional sorting conditions. Both algorithms we have shown you are sorting algorithms, and neither are slowed by additional sorting conditions. How can you explain this?

I don’t need to explain anything about your computer code. You need to do the parametric study and prove what you are saying. It’s not my job to find your coding and modeling errors. If you have developed a computer algorithm which accelerates sorting with additional sorting conditions, here’s your chance to win the Nobel Prize. You can then apply your logic to server software so that it runs faster the more users accessing the server.
Kleinman said:
On the other hand, I have posted hundreds of cases from ev including those which show that single selection conditions in the model evolve many orders of magnitude faster than all three selection conditions simultaneously.
rocketdodger said:
No. Nobody, not a single person in the history of this thread other than yourself, thinks these ev run cases show this. The extent of your argument here, Kleinman, is "I set two of the three doohickies that say 'pressure' to zero, and the thingy finishes sooner." Can you explain to all of us why setting the weight distribution to 10-1-1 instead of 10-0-0 completely refutes your claim?
I can’t help if you are so steeped in evolutionist dogma that you can’t recognize what the ev model shows.

Oh really, setting the weight factors to 10-1-1 instead of 10-0-0 completely refutes my claim? Why don’t you tell us what the other parameters you used when running these cases? Then we can compare the generations for convergence and see whether it refutes my claim, or did you:
rocketdodger said:
I found a combination of parameters last night that led to over 100 pressures being faster than a single one, but I forgot what it was
frown.gif
The difference between what you have done and what I have done is that I have posted the data and parameters use to obtain the data. I have a large spreadsheet with all the data and parameters used to obtain the data from ev. We are not playing poker where you can bluff to win this debate, you have to produce the data and show how you obtained it. I have done this with ev and what this data shows is that the number of selection pressures profoundly slow the evolutionary process. Real measurable examples of mutation and selection show the same thing.
Kleinman said:
Sure I have, you gave the probability of the theory of evolution to be true at 1.0 x 10^-999999999, the only other possibility is that we were created. So unless you want to claim that the probability that we are here is less than 1, then the probability that we were created is 1 – (1.0 x 10^-999999999) ≈ 1. Do you want to propose another way we came to be?
rocketdodger said:
I see. You have used a probability independent of creationism to find the probability of creationism. The limits of your genius know no bounds, Kleinman.
There are only two possible ways that we could come to be. Either abiogenesis and evolution accomplished this or we were created. Too bad it can’t be decided with a coin flip, at least you would have a 50-50 chance to win this debate.
Kleinman said:
You still don’t understand that none of the drug therapies used to treat HIV kills the virus. They only inhibit the virus’s ability to reproduce.
rocketdodger said:
Which is why I said:
rocketdodger quoting himself said:
lethal pressures, when combined, prevent populations from evolving resistance -- by killing them.
rocketdodger said:
Tell me, Kleinman, if a population stops reproducing, how can it evolve?
If the population has multiple simultaneous selection pressures, it doesn’t. You would have some understanding of this point if you studied how ev works. Ev does not cause extinction; the model lets half the population with the fewest mistakes to always reproduce. Still, the model comes to a virtual evolutionary standstill for all but the tiniest genomes when all three selection conditions are applied simultaneously. The model can not eliminate mistakes for all three selection conditions.
Kleinman said:
Either way, selection pressures can kill the members of the population or reduce the ability of members of the population to reproduce, the end result is the reduction in fitness of the population. Combination selection pressures reduce the fitness of a population to reproduce.
rocketdodger said:
Yes, and when that fitness is reduced to stagnation, as in every study you are relying on, evolution will obviously proceed very slow. Kleinman, can you cite even a single real world study that doesn't involve pressures designed to destroy a population?
The reason why evolution is reduced to stagnation in all the citations I have posted is because of combination selection pressures. It is a mathematical and empirical fact of life that the mutation and selection sorting/optimization process is reduced to stagnation by multiple simultaneous sorting conditions. Rocketdodger, selection pressures by definition reduce the fitness of a population to reproduce. Selection pressures are trying to destroy a population. There are no selection pressures that do not impair a populations’ ability to reproduce. If you think there are selection pressures which do not reduce the fitness of a population, tell us what they are.
Kleinman said:
Antibiotic interactions that select against resistance”
Kleinman said:
Remy Chait, Allison Craney, Roy Kishony. Nature. London: Apr 5, 2007. Vol. 446, Iss. 7136; pg. 668, 4 pgs
sol invictus said:
Did you actually read that paper? It's pretty interesting, but it has no bearing on what you're trying to argue.
sol invictus said:

They started with two populations of e. coli - one resistant to doxycycline and one not. It was known that doxycycline suppresses the effects of Cipro, a more powerful antibiotic, when both are administered simultaneously to a wild (non-resistant) strain of e. coli. What they found here is that this effect - of doxycycline suppressing the effects of Cipro - didn't work for the resistant strain, meaning that the resistant strain was in sum more strongly affected by the combination than the non-resistant strain was. That's interesting because it may offer a way to fight resistant strains, which are a growing problem due to rapid evolution of bacterial strains.

Interesting result, but unfortunately for your argument it's got nothing to do with the rate of evolution of anything.

Sol, I don’t have the body of the article available at this time but I do have an interview of the author which explains what they did:
http://pubs.acs.org/cen/news/85/i15/8515notw7.html
Giving Bacteria A One-Two Punch Drug combo stymies development of resistant bacteria said:
Using the right combination of antibiotics could curtail the development of drug-resistant bacteria, a new study shows.
Giving Bacteria A One-Two Punch Drug combo stymies development of resistant bacteria said:

Systems biology assistant professor Roy Kishony and grad students Remy Chait and Allison Craney at Harvard Medical School demonstrate that certain combinations of doxycycline and ciprofloxacin favor the growth of doxycycline-sensitive bacteria over doxycycline-resistant ones (Nature 2007, 446, 668). The combination is "suppressive," meaning that its bacteria-killing effect is weaker than that of the individual drugs.

The researchers tested the combinations against Escherichia coli strains that differ only in the presence or absence of a tetracycline efflux pump, which provides a common mechanism of resistance to tetracycline, doxycycline, and related antibiotics. In assays that measured selection for the gene responsible for this resistance, they found strong selection for doxycycline-resistant strains when they treated bacteria with doxycycline alone or in combination with erythromycin, which has a synergistic effect with doxycycline.

In contrast, the doxycycline-ciprofloxacin combination selects against the doxycycline-resistant bacteria at some concentrations. The resulting persistence of doxycycline-sensitive strains is counterintuitive. "The selection against resistance stems from the interaction between the antibiotics and is therefore largely independent of the underlying mechanistic way by which the bacteria become resistant," Chait says.

The observed effects work against only doxycycline-resistant bacteria. The authors suggest that such a strategy will work best with combinations of drugs where each one suppresses the other.

The clinical relevance of the findings is still uncertain. The current work involves antibiotic doses below therapeutic levels. "The suppressive condition that allowed for the observation of the effect is never used clinically," says Shahriar Mobashery, an antibiotic expert at the University of Notre Dame. Nevertheless, the study is "interesting conceptually," he says, and the phenomena "deserve further study and explanation."

Kishony's group plans to study higher drug concentrations that fully inhibit both the sensitive and resistant bacteria. "We hope that these findings may suggest avenues of research into new treatment strategies employing antimicrobial combinations with improved selection against resistance," Chait says.

Sol, this article demonstrates exactly that combination selection pressures profoundly slow the evolution of resistance.
 
kleinman said:
The difference between what you have done and what I have done is that I have posted the data and parameters use to obtain the data. I have a large spreadsheet with all the data and parameters used to obtain the data from ev. We are not playing poker where you can bluff to win this debate, you have to produce the data and show how you obtained it. I have done this with ev and what this data shows is that the number of selection pressures profoundly slow the evolutionary process. Real measurable examples of mutation and selection show the same thing.
All default settings except:
4096 bases
24 Mutations per genome
Pause ONLY on Rseq >= Rfreq
Result: Convergence in 13,094 generations.
----
Same experiment except
Set spurious bindings inside binding site region to 0
Set spurious bindings outside binding site region to 0
Result: No convergence after 35,000 generations. None, zippo, nada!

The "perfect" creature is not perfect unless it is free of both missing and spurious bindings. Setting a mistake count to zero prevents the program from clearing that mistake from the genome.

Any experiment conducted with a mistake count set at zero will never evolve a "perfect creature." If you turn on "stop on perfect creature," the creature that is evolved is not perfect, BECAUSE it still contains errors!!! What ev reports is an error, because you have introduced a bug into the program.

The same result will be obtained no matter what settings you select, because any setting with a zero mistake count is an ERROR!

If you can't see this, then you're mentally ill, Alan. Everyone here understands this concept but you. Do you have a learning disability or what?
 
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So run your .exe, generate the data and prove to us that your model shows that n+1 selection pressures evolve more rapidly than n selection pressures. The following does not qualify as a number of example outputs:

You silly lying fool, how many times are you going to repeat that statement instead of addressing the issue? Here is a list of posts where I explicitly either give you example runs or speak in detail about the workings of my program: #6401, #6516, #6568, and most importantly #6676. Since you have replied to each of those posts, I know you saw them. Thus your insistance that I haven not provided more information than the statement
I found a combination of parameters last night that led to over 100 pressures being faster than a single one, but I forgot what it was :(
is nothing more than rhetoric trash that is obvious to everyone.

My program does not show that in reality n+1 selection pressures evolve more rapidly than n selection pressures. I have never claimed such a thing. I claimed that in the context of the model I used n+1 selective pressures lead to a higher average amount of fixation.

How can you be so dense that you miss this point that has been made by both Adequate and myself time after time after time? What our programs show is that adding sorting conditions does not slow down all sorting algorithms. We have both provided you with multiple sets of results. Take a look at www.jedi-arts.com/code/sims.txt for five sets of mine. When will you address this issue? Will you hide like a coward forever?

I’ve already done a parametric study of a peer reviewed and published model of random point mutations and natural selection.

Who cares? You can't use ev to research the effects of multiple selective pressures like you claim. Paul, the programmer of the simulation, has explained why in clear and easy to understand language. At best you can only look at 3 pressures at once, and they are not even independent pressures.

You need to do the parametric study for your own model.

I did. The results are at www.jedi-arts.com/code/sims.txt. There are five examples, which is all my program requires to illustrate what it was intended to illustrate. All I need is a single example anyway, but as it turns out, every run I make leads to the same conclusion.

The math is so simple even a drop-out like yourself should be able to handle it, Kleinman. When you only have one pressure, once its targets are fixed, nothing more can be done. If you add more, the amount they slow each other down is offset by the fact that you can work on fixing them all at once.

But you know all this already, and you know that your claim is wrong, so instead of addressing the issue here you will just dodge it.

You can then apply your logic to server software so that it runs faster the more users accessing the server.

THERE IS SUCH SOFTWARE YOU STUPID FOOL -- ITS CALLED DISTRIBUTED COMPUTING.

I can’t help if you are so steeped in evolutionist dogma that you can’t recognize what the ev model shows.

We know you can't. Someone that knew what they were talking about, on the other hand, would be able to help others see their point by explaining themselves.

Oh really, setting the weight factors to 10-1-1 instead of 10-0-0 completely refutes my claim? Why don’t you tell us what the other parameters you used when running these cases?

Using the default settings, it takes less than 20 generations to reach a perfect creature with 10-0-0. Using 10-1-1, it takes 316 generations. Ok. If your theory is true, then going to 10-10-10 will result in an "orders of magnitude" slowdown compared to 10-1-1. Except... with 10-10-10 it took 662 generations. That is merely double the time to convergence -- not quite "orders of magnitude" you genius.

And what is more... with 10-10-10 there is effectively three pressures where at 10-1-1 there was still effectively one -- a 300% increase. Yet it only took twice as long to converge, a 200% increase. So if we increased the number of pressures by 300% and convergence only took 200% longer... THE RATE OF CONVERGENCE INCREASED.

We are not playing poker where you can bluff to win this debate, you have to produce the data and show how you obtained it.

Both Adequate and I have done so, in multiple posts. Your lies don't fool anyone.

I have done this with ev and what this data shows is that the number of selection pressures profoundly slow the evolutionary process. Real measurable examples of mutation and selection show the same thing.

Really? Then how do you account for the ev results I just showed you? Wait, let me guess.. something about the population size not being high enough, or the number of binding sites not being high enough.. whine whine. Here is a question -- do you have any data on 10-1-1 and 10-10-10 available? Surely you must have done runs using those two weight distributions...
 
Sol, this article demonstrates exactly that combination selection pressures profoundly slow the evolution of resistance.

What are you talking about? It has nothing to do with evolution. All they found is that for some reason (which they don't understand) some bacteria are susceptible to that combination of antibiotics, and some aren't. Presumably there's some biochemical explanation.

So?

Are you capable of reading and understanding English?
 
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If the population has multiple simultaneous selection pressures, it doesn’t.

Oh, so a stagnant population that is not reproducing will still evolve, as long as there isn't multiple selective pressures acting on it? Since evolution depends on reproduction, I think you will have a hard time selling this claim to even fellow creationists...

You would have some understanding of this point if you studied how ev works.

But I do, and I did. And as we have all proved to you numerous times, ev does not show what you claim it does. Other than that, all you have are your cited studies, which all cause a population to either stagnate or die off immediately. The question still stands, Kleinman: Can you show us data from a study that did not use pressures designed to destroy a population?

The reason why evolution is reduced to stagnation in all the citations I have posted is because of combination selection pressures.

The reason evolution stops in the studies you cite is because the population stops reproducing or dies you fool. Mutation and selection doesn't happen when a population is not reproducing or dead.

It is a mathematical and empirical fact of life that the mutation and selection sorting/optimization process is reduced to stagnation by multiple simultaneous sorting conditions.

You keep saying this, but you have produced zero actual evidence. Fail. Try again.

Rocketdodger, selection pressures by definition reduce the fitness of a population to reproduce. Selection pressures are trying to destroy a population. There are no selection pressures that do not impair a populations’ ability to reproduce. If you think there are selection pressures which do not reduce the fitness of a population, tell us what they are.

You are clearly a fool who knows nothing about the mechanisms of evolution. Selective pressures by definition change the RELATIVE reproductive fitness of individuals in a population.

Some reduce the ability of a population as a whole to reproduce -- in particular, all of the pressures used in the studies you cite.

Others, rather than killing or impeding the reproduction of individuals, simply confer advantages or disadvantages to those individuals that exhibit their targets. For instance, suppose there is a population of bacteria living in a relatively weak food solution. Now add another type of food that they are only one point mutation away from being able to metabolize. Very quickly the population would evolve to be able to metabolize it. Are you suggesting that the addition of this new food pressure will reduce the population's reproductive fitness?
 
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Sure you can prove something by disproving something else, it called the process of elimination and the theory of evolution has been eliminated. So now we got here either by creation or something you can’t think of.

Tell us of what evil that hasn’t gone un-judged?

How do you know he doesn’t exist?

Adequate has posted a silly graph and you have posted the following:

Neither of you have done a systematic presentation of your models or given a real example of your models. On the other hand, I have posted hundreds of cases from ev including those which show that single selection conditions in the model evolve many orders of magnitude faster than all three selection conditions simultaneously. If you are having trouble running ev, either Paul or I can help you with this. In addition I have posted and will continue to post real examples which demonstrate what Dr Schneider’s peer reviewed and published model shows, which are combination selection pressures profoundly slow the evolutionary sorting/optimization process.

Sure I have, you gave the probability of the theory of evolution to be true at 1.0 x 10^-999999999, the only other possibility is that we were created. So unless you want to claim that the probability that we are here is less than 1, then the probability that we were created is 1 – (1.0 x 10^-999999999) ≈ 1. Do you want to propose another way we came to be?

You still don’t understand that none of the drug therapies used to treat HIV kills the virus. They only inhibit the virus’s ability to reproduce. Either way, selection pressures can kill the members of the population or reduce the ability of members of the population to reproduce, the end result is the reduction in fitness of the population. Combination selection pressures reduce the fitness of a population to reproduce.

I though you said you understood how ev works. Every locus in the genome is subject to the selection pressures in ev when all three selection pressures are imposed. Only when you set selection pressures in the model to zero are only certain loci targeted. Apparently in your studies of ev you failed to read Dr Schneider’s publication on his model. He published the following statement concerning his model:

So you got this wrong about the ev model and Dr Schneider said the following for how he intended to have ev used.

I added the highlighting for you rocketwhomissesthetarget. There are many interesting things you can learn about the mathematics of mutation and selection if you understand how ev works. So far, you have not demonstrated any of this understanding.

“Antibiotic interactions that select against resistance”
Remy Chait, Allison Craney, Roy Kishony. Nature. London: Apr 5, 2007. Vol. 446, Iss. 7136; pg. 668, 4 pgs

Since simply color highlighting is not enough for rocketwhomissesthetarget, what do you think these authors mean by[size=+3]inversion of selection?[/SIZE]

Kman I don't know how you got here but I had a mother and father.
 

So run your .exe, generate the data and prove to us that your model shows that n+1 selection pressures evolve more rapidly than n selection pressures. The following does not qualify as a number of example outputs:

I’ve already done a parametric study of a peer reviewed and published model of random point mutations and natural selection. You need to do the parametric study for your own model.

I don’t need to explain anything about your computer code. You need to do the parametric study and prove what you are saying. It’s not my job to find your coding and modeling errors. If you have developed a computer algorithm which accelerates sorting with additional sorting conditions, here’s your chance to win the Nobel Prize. You can then apply your logic to server software so that it runs faster the more users accessing the server.

I can’t help if you are so steeped in evolutionist dogma that you can’t recognize what the ev model shows.

Oh really, setting the weight factors to 10-1-1 instead of 10-0-0 completely refutes my claim? Why don’t you tell us what the other parameters you used when running these cases? Then we can compare the generations for convergence and see whether it refutes my claim, or did you:

The difference between what you have done and what I have done is that I have posted the data and parameters use to obtain the data. I have a large spreadsheet with all the data and parameters used to obtain the data from ev. We are not playing poker where you can bluff to win this debate, you have to produce the data and show how you obtained it. I have done this with ev and what this data shows is that the number of selection pressures profoundly slow the evolutionary process. Real measurable examples of mutation and selection show the same thing.

There are only two possible ways that we could come to be. Either abiogenesis and evolution accomplished this or we were created. Too bad it can’t be decided with a coin flip, at least you would have a 50-50 chance to win this debate.

If the population has multiple simultaneous selection pressures, it doesn’t. You would have some understanding of this point if you studied how ev works. Ev does not cause extinction; the model lets half the population with the fewest mistakes to always reproduce. Still, the model comes to a virtual evolutionary standstill for all but the tiniest genomes when all three selection conditions are applied simultaneously. The model can not eliminate mistakes for all three selection conditions.

The reason why evolution is reduced to stagnation in all the citations I have posted is because of combination selection pressures. It is a mathematical and empirical fact of life that the mutation and selection sorting/optimization process is reduced to stagnation by multiple simultaneous sorting conditions. Rocketdodger, selection pressures by definition reduce the fitness of a population to reproduce. Selection pressures are trying to destroy a population. There are no selection pressures that do not impair a populations’ ability to reproduce. If you think there are selection pressures which do not reduce the fitness of a population, tell us what they are.

Sol, I don’t have the body of the article available at this time but I do have an interview of the author which explains what they did:
http://pubs.acs.org/cen/news/85/i15/8515notw7.html

Sol, this article demonstrates exactly that combination selection pressures profoundly slow the evolution of resistance.

Could you define "profoundly slow " ? Is it different than really slow or very slow or maybe
just stop?

Viva La Resistance!
 
Why don’t you mention that the majority of the examples of aneuploidy are harmful.

Because it isn't true. If it were true, there would be virtually no polyploidisation events known. In the real world, however, as much as 80% of all flowering plants are believed to have both diploid and various polyploid populations. In animals, this number is less (this has been suggested to be because there is less selfing in animals, but I don't know if this is sufficient explanation), but nonetheless it occurs. Again, in Lumbriculus variegatus most populations I have looked at seem to be of various non-diploid ploidy levels.

But perhaps we misunderstand each other. Aneuploidy is not the same as polyploidy. I am talking about those cases where all the chromosomes are doubled, either by allopolyploidisation or by autopolyploidisation.

Wheat evolving by polyploidisation into wheat is an example of “common descent”?

Yes. What else would it be? An example of that some god creates every seed individually?

So are you now going to make the leap and tell us that reptiles evolved into birds by polyploidisation? You evolutionists do love you speculations and extrapolations.

If I had wanted to make that leap, I would have said so. I am merely pointing out that the concept of common descent does not rest exclusively on random point mutation and selection, but that, as always, other mechanisms can provide the same patterns as well.

And it certainly does not rely on your very flawed understanding of these mechanisms.

If you have the mathematical and empirical evidence, why are you always trying to inoculate yourself from having to specify the selection pressures and target genes to these pressures? I continue to post measurable and repeatable examples of mutation and selection which show combination selection pressures profoundly slow the evolutionary process while you continue to fail to post examples of mutation and selection which show otherwise and the examples you do post don’t define the selection pressures or the target genes for these selection pressures.

They do. The relevant selection pressure for the evolution of the advanced structures in some moth ears, for example, is predation by two different kinds of bats. The relevant selection pressure for the evolution of limpet shell structure is predation by different kinds of predators in different areas. The evolution in those phytophagous beetles are subject to hosts of selection pressures, including a range of new predators, the plants' own defense mechanisms, and other factors.

This data is not necessarily repeatable (even should such studies be ethically permissible), as I have explained to you before, because these pressures target the entire genome, and different structures could evolve to counter the same pressure at different times, just as for the various methods of how larger vertebrates move from tree to tree.
 
Sure you can prove something by disproving something else

No, you can't. As usual you demonstrate your utter ignorance of how things work.

it called the process of elimination

That only works when you know exactly how many options you have.

and the theory of evolution has been eliminated.

It has ? Well, that's odd, because we've got a poster on this thread who's been claiming the same thing, and so far he hasn't been able to push his theory past rhetoric.

Oh, wait. That's you!

So now we got here either by creation or something you can’t think of.

Nice try, moonbat. It's YOUR onus to prove creation. I don't have to lift a finger.

Tell us of what evil that hasn’t gone un-judged?

Hasn't gone un-judged ? That's YOUR argument. Why would I want to prove YOUR point ?

How do you know he doesn’t exist?

It's my tentative conclusion until someone shows otherwise.

Or would you have me believe in Zeus, too ?
 
Really? Then how do you account for the ev results I just showed you? Wait, let me guess.. something about the population size not being high enough, or the number of binding sites not being high enough.. whine whine. Here is a question -- do you have any data on 10-1-1 and 10-10-10 available? Surely you must have done runs using those two weight distributions...

Kleinman likes ev only when it suits him. Otherwise it's incomplete or "contrived".
 
Kleinman said:
You evolutionists do love you speculations and extrapolations.

I don't suppose you'll speculate when I ask you how the universe was created ? How the soul operates ? What it does ? Why God made everything so that it looks like evolution works ?
 
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