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Annoying creationists

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The forum editor modified the goalposts so here it is again in proper format.
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*░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░*
*░░|M|░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░|I|░░░░*
*░░|A|░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░|T|░░░░*
*░░|T|░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░|S|░░░░*
*░░|H Multiple Selection Pressures .|░░░░*
*░░|E|░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░|I|░░░░*
*░░|M|░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░|M|░░░░*
*░░|A|░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░|P|░░░░*
*░░|T|░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░|O|░░░░*
*░░|I|░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░|S|░░░░*
*░░|C|░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░|S|░░░░*
*░░|A|░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░|I|░░░░*
*░░|L|░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░|B|░░░░*
*░░|L|░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░|L|░░░░*
*░░|Y|░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░|E|░░░░*
*░slows░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░evolution░*
*░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░*
*░░░░░░░░░This is what ev shows.░░░░░░░░░*
*░░░░░░░This is what reality shows.░░░░░░*
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Here are the goalposts again in case you evolutionists whine that I am moving them.

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*░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░*
*░░|M|░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░|I|░░░░*
*░░|A|░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░|T|░░░░*
*░░|T|░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░|S|░░░░*
*░░|H Multiple Selection Pressures .|░░░░*
*░░|E|░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░|I|░░░░*
*░░|M|░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░|M|░░░░*
*░░|A|░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░|P|░░░░*
*░░|T|░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░|O|░░░░*
*░░|I|░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░|S|░░░░*
*░░|C|░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░|S|░░░░*
*░░|A|░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░|I|░░░░*
*░░|L|░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░|B|░░░░*
*░░|L|░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░|L|░░░░*
*░░|Y|░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░|E|░░░░*
*░slows░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░evolution░*
*░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░*
*░░░░░░░░░This is what ev shows.░░░░░░░░░*
*░░░░░░░This is what reality shows.░░░░░░*
******************************************

Let’s ask the officials to do an instant replay of the goalposts, and here it is:[/SIZE]

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*░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░*
*░░|M|░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░|I|░░░░*
*░░|A|░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░|T|░░░░*
*░░|T|░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░|S|░░░░*
*░░|H Multiple Selection Pressures .|░░░░*
*░░|E|░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░|I|░░░░*
*░░|M|░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░|M|░░░░*
*░░|A|░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░|P|░░░░*
*░░|T|░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░|O|░░░░*
*░░|I|░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░|S|░░░░*
*░░|C|░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░|S|░░░░*
*░░|A|░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░|I|░░░░*
*░░|L|░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░|B|░░░░*
*░░|L|░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░|L|░░░░*
*░░|Y|░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░|E|░░░░*
*░slows░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░evolution░*
*░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░*
*░░░░░░░░░This is what ev shows.░░░░░░░░░*
*░░░░░░░This is what reality shows.░░░░░░*
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How about if I paint you a picture:

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*░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░*
*░░|M|░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░|I|░░░░*
*░░|A|░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░|T|░░░░*
*░░|T|░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░|S|░░░░*
*░░|H Multiple Selection Pressures .|░░░░*
*░░|E|░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░|I|░░░░*
*░░|M|░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░|M|░░░░*
*░░|A|░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░|P|░░░░*
*░░|T|░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░|O|░░░░*
*░░|I|░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░|S|░░░░*
*░░|C|░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░|S|░░░░*
*░░|A|░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░|I|░░░░*
*░░|L|░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░|B|░░░░*
*░░|L|░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░|L|░░░░*
*░░|Y|░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░|E|░░░░*
*░slows░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░evolution░*
*░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░*
*░░░░░░░░░This is what ev shows.░░░░░░░░░*
*░░░░░░░This is what reality shows.░░░░░░*
******************************************

You don’t have to fill all your gaps in your theory, just fill this one, you know the one:
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*░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░*
*░░|M|░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░|I|░░░░*
*░░|A|░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░|T|░░░░*
*░░|T|░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░|S|░░░░*
*░░|H Multiple Selection Pressures .|░░░░*
*░░|E|░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░|I|░░░░*
*░░|M|░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░|M|░░░░*
*░░|A|░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░|P|░░░░*
*░░|T|░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░|O|░░░░*
*░░|I|░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░|S|░░░░*
*░░|C|░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░|S|░░░░*
*░░|A|░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░|I|░░░░*
*░░|L|░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░|B|░░░░*
*░░|L|░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░|L|░░░░*
*░░|Y|░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░|E|░░░░*
*░slows░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░evolution░*
*░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░*
*░░░░░░░░░This is what ev shows.░░░░░░░░░*
*░░░░░░░This is what reality shows.░░░░░░*
******************************************

Just think of this as an improvement in the goalposts.

******************************************
*░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░*
*░░|M|░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░|I|░░░░*
*░░|A|░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░|T|░░░░*
*░░|T|░░░░░░░░Directional░░░░░░░░░|S|░░░░*
*░░|H Multiple Selection Pressures .|░░░░*
*░░|E|░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░|I|░░░░*
*░░|M|░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░|M|░░░░*
*░░|A|░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░|P|░░░░*
*░░|T|░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░|O|░░░░*
*░░|I|░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░|S|░░░░*
*░░|C|░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░|S|░░░░*
*░░|A|░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░|I|░░░░*
*░░|L|░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░|B|░░░░*
*░░|L|░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░|L|░░░░*
*░░|Y|░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░|E|░░░░*
*░slows░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░evolution░*
*░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░*
*░░░░░░░░░This is what ev shows.░░░░░░░░░*
*░░░░░░░This is what reality shows.░░░░░░*
******************************************

You just can't buy that sort of entertainment.

His goalposts lasted only nine days before he was forced to shift them --- which is fast, considering how obtuse he is.

You will notice, by the way, that kleinman's new lie has already been proven false. We're way ahead of him.
 
Two steps forward, one step back. We will get to the point where you can understand how mutation and selection actually works.
Yes, I'm interested to know how these directional pressures are important and, particularly, how many are needed to stop evolution.

I didn’t say stop=too slow, I said extinction means stop. What I said was too slow means that the theory of evolution is mathematically impossible, you simply do not have enough time to accumulate the information by mutation and selection.
Can you put some numbers onto those bolded points you've made. I'm really trying to understand where you see the line being drawn.


What I have been advocating is that the ev computer model shows that the acquisition of information by random point mutation is profoundly slow, too slow to support the theory of evolution. The reason why it is too slow is the competing directional selection conditions which slow the evolutionary process profoundly when realistic genome lengths and mutation rates are used. This is also seen in reality.
and no other mutation is possible? no other genetic adaptation scheme matters? this is very interesting...


It is the theory of evolution which is the myth, microevolution does occur but extrapolating this phenomenon to the evolution of reptiles into birds is mathematically impossible, that’s the myth.
So you admit to microevolution. I understand.

Now what is Microevolution? How does it differ from macroevolution?
I remember you saying
kleinman said:
My view on this issue is that once you get beyond a single point mutation you are already starting to enter the realm of macroevolution.
but are now saying
kleinman said:
The way the mathematics of mutation and selection works, the more directional selection pressures you have, the slower the evolutionary process goes

Several question I have are
1.) If microevolution is real, How does it evade being slowed by "more directional selection pressures"?
2.) How many microevolutionary changes must occur before it is called macroevolution?
3.) How does this all relate to the Fitness Landscape argument that you kept refering to previously?
 
So let’s discuss your article The HIV positive selection mutation database and your 500 selection pressures in this context and what it means to the mathematics of mutation and selection. You will find that your article supports my contention that multiple directional selection pressures slows evolution.
This is a lie, which is why you cannot quote the article as saying any such thing.

Let's call this one Lie #7, since it seems likely that you're going to recite it over and over without producing a shred of evidence for it.

Have you written the macro yet?
 
Can you put some numbers onto those bolded points you've made. I'm really trying to understand where you see the line being drawn.
Ah, c'mon, how can he answer that? It's not as if he has some sort of mathematical understanding of mutation and selection --- such as he could get out of a biology textbook if he wasn't so lazy and stupid.
 
It's really simple folks -- let me explain it to you so that you understand, once and for all!

In a big crowd of selection pressures, the directional pressures are hard for the base pairs to spot. So, the directional pressures all wear little tiny badges so that they can be more easily distingushed by the base pairs, than they would be if they were only wearing genes.

This is where God comes in. When God hits a base pair square with the club facing in, this causes a mutation to hook rather than go straight or slice. When God hooks on a dog leg, that's good. When God slices, the dog gets bad knees and must be put down early.

In short, kleinman's problem is that there are no goalposts in golf, and using slaves as caddies is considered bad form -- even by Christian golfers.
 

Originally Posted by Kleinman reposting for Dr Richard and missing the fact that he asked for a defintion of "selection pressure" not "different types of selection"

Go back to your text book....

And try again. Question 4 still stands. Now have a go at questions 1, 2, 3 and 5.

1. Again, please tell me the minimum number of "directional "selection pressures you think must operate to prevent macroevolution by slowing microevolution to such an extent that it cannot happen within the timeframe of life on earth in the real world based on your extensive mathematical modelling.

2. If one base pair mutation is a microevolutionary event, how many base pair mutations to make a macroevolutionary event? 2? 10? 100?

3. How many positive selection pressures are listed on the HIV positive selection database for just two of the genes?

4. What is your definition of a "selection pressure"

5. (for old time's sake) What is your definition of macroevolution again? (NB random lists of things you think it is are not acceptable)
 
You just can't buy that sort of entertainment.

His goalposts lasted only nine days before he was forced to shift them --- which is fast, considering how obtuse he is.

BWAHAHA.

I can't wait to see the next iteration - why bother debunking kleinman when he does the job himself so well? Could there be a more perfect illustration of goal-post shifting?
 
Why kleinman is wrong

About multiple selection pressures, given that to address all salient points would risk me missing the impending heat death of the universe.

Much reference has been made to the HIV positive selection database

http://www.bioinformatics.ucla.edu/HIV/

A copy of one of the papers is available here.

I will firstly summarise what we are discussing here:

Kleinman is claiming (I have reformatted the ASCII art) that:

Directional multiple selection pressures mathematically slows evolution its impossible ev shows this real life shows this

And cites the HIV virus, and in particular the work referenced above, as evidence of this.

Let us consider what these researchers have done.

Firstly, they looked at samples of HIV from 40,000 HIV +ve patients (and had access to another database too).

They have coded the RNA sequence of the protease and reverse transcriptase genes of the (majority) HIV virus for every patient.

They did sufficient checks to ensure that the sequencing was accurate and compared the sequence from every patient to a baseline "reference" sample. A deviation from the baseline sample was counted as a mutation.

What they were interested in was examining the selection pressure acting for every mutation in these genes. They did this by looking at the amino acids produced by the HIV RNA.

This is the clever bit:

3 base pairs of RNA/DNA will code for an amino acid: UUU will get you phenyalanine for instance. A point mutation to UUC will still get you phenylalanine, so the protein produced by the gene will still be the same.

Assuming that a mutation which does not affect the amino acid sequence will have no effect on the fitness of the HIV virus (debatable in higher organisms but reasonable in HIV I feel), this mutation will confer no selective benefit to the virus. Therefore, in a large enough population, this mutation would occur no more often than expected by chance, giving a measure of selection pressure = 1.

However, consider another point mutation to UCU - this would give a serine amino acid, not a phenylalanine. This may have no effect on the function of the overall protein, and would again occur no more often than expected by chance. But, if the mutation confers a "fitness benefit" to the HIV virus, evolutionary theory would expect it to be selected for, and the mutation would be found more often than expected by chance: a selection pressure >1. Likewise, if the mutation is harmful, it will occurs less often than expected by chance: selection pressure <1.

This is what is referred to as Ka/Ks in the paper.

The reason why kleinman is so utterly wrong about this paper is this:

to calculate the selection pressure for a given amino acid mutation the researchers counted the number of times that mutation had occurred in their database

They have to in order to calculate Ka/Ks. From the paper

NY, the count of X3Y mutations observed at that codon,

Now let us go back to Kleinman's original claim:


Directional multiple selection pressures mathematically slows evolution its impossible ev shows this real life shows this

The researchers have calculated Ka/Ks by counting the numbers of real life, existing, forms of HIV which have mutated from the reference sample and increased in frequency as a result of selection. This is evolution.


The evolved forms of HIV, which Kleinman claims are impossible, have actually been counted by this research.

That is why Kleinman is wrong.

That is why this paper does not support his claim.

That is why another of his claims:

Neutral or stabilizing selection processes do not lead to new strains in the gene pool

Is also wrong. If he said "neutral selection processes do not not lead to an increased frequency of new strains in the gene pool over that which would be expected by chance" then he would be right, but he is uttely wrong with his original sentence.

With these errors corrected, I suspect Kleinman will attempt to develop another form of argument about the higher number of negative/neutral selection pressures vs. positive selection pressures shown in this study.

He is too lazy to count them for himself, but if you go to the database linked web page you can do it yourself.

I count about 60-70 positive selection pressures for a single amino acid substitution when one mutation occurs in one dataset. Note that does NOT mean 70 types of HIV that have seen selected for, or even that there were 70 mutated HIV strains found in the study.

Then click on this link.

Here, the researchers have examined the effect on selection pressure if TWO mutations occur. All the blue dots indicate a high Ka/Ks - positive selection pressures, again CALCULATED BY USING THE FREQUENCY OF EVOLVED HIV STRAINS.

Again, multiple selection pressures (as measured by differing Ka/Ks) are not inhibiting the evolution of the HIV virus.


Eventually, as logic takes its toll, kleinmans ASCII art will come to read:

One or more directional multiple selection pressure(s) sufficiently strong to cause "redundant kill" (the minimum level of population death necessary to ensure that the overall (genomic mutation rate)*(surviving population per generation) is too low to adapt to the applied pressure(s) before population death occurs) mathematically slows evolution and renders the population extinct its impossible ev shows this real life shows this

That is why real doctors use triple therapy kleinman.
 
Annoying Creationists

Kleinman said:
Two steps forward, one step back. We will get to the point where you can understand how mutation and selection actually works.
joobz said:
Yes, I'm interested to know how these directional pressures are important and, particularly, how many are needed to stop evolution.
There are essentially two different forms of selection pressures, you have stabilizing selection pressures and directional selection pressures. A stabilizing selection pressure favors a particular phenotype increasing the frequency of that phenotype in the population. A directional selection pressure is directed to a new optimum. Note that ev’s selection pressures start out as directional selection pressures seeking the perfect creature. As long as selection is left on in the model, the entire population will evolve to “perfect” creatures. Once this happens, the directionality of the selection pressure ceases and the selection pressure becomes stabilizing, any mutation that causes a creature to no longer be “perfect” is selected out. The new optimum has been found for the population. This is analogous to what happens with HIV. When the HIV virus is exposed to a drug which reduces it’s fitness (ability to reproduce), the drug acts as a directional selection pressure until a strain mutates and becomes resistant to that drug. As long as the drug is in the viruses’ environment, the drug then acts as a stabilizing selection pressure preventing the virus from mutating back to its wild form. Note that wild HIV virus reproduces more rapidly than drug resistant strains of the virus when not in the presence of the drug and will take over the population of viruses in this case. Evolution only occurs under directional selection pressures, not stabilizing selection pressures. This is why Dr Richard’s 500 selection pressures must be distinguished as stabilizing or directional (and neutral) when considering the rate of evolution. The vast majority of the selection pressures in Dr Richard’s reference are not directional. It is the use of combination directional selection pressures (combination therapy) which slows the evolution of drug resistant strains of the virus. Some people with HIV have lived decades longer without active disease using this strategy.
Kleinman said:
I didn’t say stop=too slow, I said extinction means stop. What I said was too slow means that the theory of evolution is mathematically impossible, you simply do not have enough time to accumulate the information by mutation and selection.
joobz said:
Can you put some numbers onto those bolded points you've made. I'm really trying to understand where you see the line being drawn.
The best hard numbers I have are based on the results from ev. Setting two of the three selection conditions to zero will allow the remaining condition to evolve 3 to 5 orders of magnitude more quickly than evolving all three selection conditions simultaneously for genome lengths in the range of HIV. For larger genomes, I expect this number to be far greater. I don’t have quantitative data yet for the real examples I have given but it is clear that people using multiple selection pressures to control HIV, TB, pests, weeds, rodents and so on already know this effect is real.
Kleinman said:
What I have been advocating is that the ev computer model shows that the acquisition of information by random point mutation is profoundly slow, too slow to support the theory of evolution. The reason why it is too slow is the competing directional selection conditions which slow the evolutionary process profoundly when realistic genome lengths and mutation rates are used. This is also seen in reality.
joobz said:
and no other mutation is possible? no other genetic adaptation scheme matters? this is very interesting...
It is the number of directional selection pressures and genome length which dominate the mathematics of mutation and selection. There is no reason to believe that frame shift mutations, translocations, duplications or any other way of scrambling a genome is going to change the underlying mathematics of mutation and selection.
Kleinman said:
It is the theory of evolution which is the myth, microevolution does occur but extrapolating this phenomenon to the evolution of reptiles into birds is mathematically impossible, that’s the myth.
joobz said:
So you admit to microevolution. I understand.
I have admitted to this since the very beginning of this debate. I have also admitted to mutation and selection as a mechanism for increasing genetic information.
joobz said:
Now what is Microevolution? How does it differ from macroevolution?
Microevolutionary events occur, macroevolutionary events do not.
Kleinman said:
My view on this issue is that once you get beyond a single point mutation you are already starting to enter the realm of macroevolution.
joobz said:
but are now saying
Kleinman said:
The way the mathematics of mutation and selection works, the more directional selection pressures you have, the slower the evolutionary process goes
joobz said:
Several question I have are
1.) If microevolution is real, How does it evade being slowed by "more directional selection pressures"?
2.) How many microevolutionary changes must occur before it is called macroevolution?
3.) How does this all relate to the Fitness Landscape argument that you kept refering to previously?
1.) Microevolution does not evade being slowed by more directional pressures, this is demonstrated by ev and the numerous real examples I have presented many times on this thread.
2.) Far too many, the accounting for all the difference between reptiles and birds or even humans and chimpanzees is just too great. Aside from not having selection pressures that would accomplish these transformations, you simply do not have enough reproduction to accomplish these transformations on these very large genome creatures. Mutation and selection just can not get you there, the mathematics does not work.
3.) The fitness landscape is used to describe the path a population subjected to a directional selection pressure must take in order to get to a new optimum. If you have a single directional selection pressure, it is much easier for the population to find this optimum. As soon as you introduce multiple directional selection pressures, the population must find optimums for all these conditions simultaneously. This confounds the mutation and selection process where one selection pressure may cause interference with another selection pressure to find its optimum. You could actually use ev to map out the fitness landscape graphically and watch the fitness function change as the mutation and selection process was occurring. The optimums for this fitness landscape occur when all three selection conditions for the model are satisfied.
kjkent1 said:
In a big crowd of selection pressures, the directional pressures are hard for the base pairs to spot. So, the directional pressures all wear little tiny badges so that they can be more easily distingushed by the base pairs, than they would be if they were only wearing genes.
Oh no, little gator, the directional selection pressures are easier to identify then that, they are the one’s that make the perfect creatures.
Dr Richard said:
1. Again, please tell me the minimum number of "directional "selection pressures you think must operate to prevent macroevolution by slowing microevolution to such an extent that it cannot happen within the timeframe of life on earth in the real world based on your extensive mathematical modelling.
Let’s do one question at a time, otherwise, too many directional selection pressures. I already answered this question but will give it a go again. Ev shows that three directional selection pressures profoundly slow evolution on large genomes. Ev does evolve the three directional selection pressures reasonably quickly on an HIV size genome but not nearly now quickly as a single directional selection pressure. On large genomes, a single directional selection pressure still evolves rapidly in ev. So in answer to your question, based on the mathematics shown by ev, on genomes the size of HIV with equivalent reproductive rates, three directional selective pressures already is slowing microevolution markedly, I suspect a couple more directional selection pressures may give many years more of disease free life. On longer genome creatures such as bacteria I don’t think you will need as many directional selection pressures. The problem here is that most bacteria have been subjected to monotherapy for years. In fact you are taught in medical school not to use combination therapy for the treatment of most bacterial infections. The end result of this line of thinking are multi-drug resistant TB, gonorrhea, MRSA, pseudomonas … I think this line of thinking needs to be reconsidered. Once we finish discussing this question, I’ll go on to your next question.
 
Dr. A said:
You will notice, by the way, that kleinman's new lie has already been proven false. We're way ahead of him.
There's much to be said for predebunking lies.

Kjkent said:
This is where God comes in. When God hits a base pair square with the club facing in, this causes a mutation to hook rather than go straight or slice. When God hooks on a dog leg, that's good. When God slices, the dog gets bad knees and must be put down early.
May I have permission to use this in my class on metaphors?

~~ Paul
 
Annoying Creationists

Dr Richard said:
I count about 60-70 positive selection pressures for a single amino acid substitution when one mutation occurs in one dataset. Note that does NOT mean 70 types of HIV that have seen selected for, or even that there were 70 mutated HIV strains found in the study.
Since Dr Richard does a lousy job explaining his posts, let’s see if we can do a bit better. Let’s start with the equation used to compute the selection pressure at a codon.

picrender.fcgi


What Dr Richard is confusing is the terminology. Ka/Ks > 1 is called a positive (directional) selection pressure for a codon. When the data for Ka/Ks is plotted for the example for the protease gene, each time Ka/Ks > 1, he counts this as a positive selective pressure.

If you count every codon which shows the results of directional selection pressure with ev when evolving 16 binding sites, 6 bases wide (2 codons wide), you would count 32 positive selection pressures. Dr Richard, each time a particular codon in HIV changes as a result of a directed selection pressure from a protease inhibitor does mean you have additional directed selection pressures. What is happening is a large number of Ka/Ks > 1 for the individual codons in a gene is a measure of the intensity of the directed selection pressure. So if a particular protease inhibitor leads to 60-70 amino acid changes in order to evolve resistance to that drug, it would be a more intense directed selection pressure than another protease inhibitor that only required 30 amino acid changes.

Dr Richard said:
Again, multiple selection pressures (as measured by differing Ka/Ks) are not inhibiting the evolution of the HIV virus.
Dr Richard said:

Eventually, as logic takes its toll, kleinmans ASCII art will come to read:

Dr Richard, you need to do a little more work on your counting.
Kleinman said:
Microevolutionary events occur, macroevolutionary events do not.
Paul said:
All righty then, that 'splains it.
Ev’s helping to ‘slain it. Reptiles to birds is certainly not microevolution.
 
kleinman (Ger:"little man") said:
It is the number of directional selection pressures and genome length which dominate the mathematics of mutation and selection. There is no reason to believe that frame shift mutations, translocations, duplications or any other way of scrambling a genome is going to change the underlying mathematics of mutation and selection.
What remarkable reasoning powers you have at your disposal, Herr Kleinman.

You have the wisdom of a much younger man.
 
Isn't it funny the way he keeps underlining the word he's just learnt?

I wonder why he does that.

Apart from that, there's no new lie of any note; and, of course, no math.
 
Last edited:
kleinman said:
There is no reason to believe that frame shift mutations, translocations, duplications or any other way of scrambling a genome is going to change the underlying mathematics of mutation and selection.
:dl:

Pure gold.
 

Since Dr Richard does a lousy job explaining his posts, let’s see if we can do a bit better.


Ka/Ks > 1 is called a positive (directional) selection pressure for a codon.

Indeed, as I said, it is a positive selection pressure. I am glad you agree.


When the data for Ka/Ks is plotted for the example for the protease gene, each time Ka/Ks > 1, he counts this as a positive selective pressure.

Which you just agreed it is, acting at the level of the codon.


Dr Richard, each time a particular codon in HIV changes as a result of a directed selection pressure from a protease inhibitor does mean you have additional directed selection pressures.

I am glad you agree again, although your assertion that the positive selection pressures in the protease gene are due to a protease inhibitor is sadly mistaken -see below. But...

kleinman is finally beginning to get it.

This is what happens when you are unable to define selection pressure sufficiently, kleinman.

We can measure "a selection pressure" acting on an individual organism (one selection pressure per organism), a selection of genes, a gene, a part of a gene, an amino acid codon or an individual base pair.

klienman prefers to count selection pressures on a gene, because that is what ev does, but it is not true (see paper under discussion as evidence) that the only selection pressures measurable in real world act purely at the gene level.


But that will not deter kleinman:

What is happening is a large number of Ka/Ks > 1 for the individual codons in a gene is a measure of the intensity of the directed selection pressure. So if a particular protease inhibitor leads to 60-70 amino acid changes in order to evolve resistance to that drug, it would be a more intense directed selection pressure than another protease inhibitor that only required 30 amino acid changes.


In other words, kleinman wants to sum the many, many selection pressures observed at the amino acid level into one, for the whole gene, but does not want to sum the gene-operating selection pressures into one for the whole organism (because that creates one selection pressure and ruins his whole multiple selection pressure argument).

What is really funny is his reference to a protease inhibitor as though this is the only selection pressure acting on the protease gene.

Take a look at the HIV positive selection database again klienman

Third graph down, titled "Stanford untreated dataset"

oops, multiple selection pressures measured on the genome in untreated patients

Of course, it is itneresting to compare that to the treated group, where some additional positive selection pressures can be measured.

You may care to hypothesise that these are due to a gene-wide selection pressure exerted by different protease inhibitors, but this does not hold for the others.

So let us finally return to return to the issue of multiple selection pressures and evolution:

Let’s do one question at a time, otherwise, too many directional selection pressures... So in answer to your question, based on the mathematics shown by ev, on genomes the size of HIV with equivalent reproductive rates, three directional selective pressures already is slowing microevolution markedly, I suspect a couple more directional selection pressures may give many years more of disease free life....On longer genome creatures such as bacteria I don’t think you will need as many directional selection pressures

5 selection pressures in HIV treated patients kleinman?

If we are talking about measuring a selection pressure acting at the viron level, there is one, and only for every organism, and the dataset shows it is evolving. Therefore, you are wrong.

If we are talking about measuring selection pressures acting at the gene level, there are 9 or 10 (for HIV, depending on whether you count the LTR), and the dataset shows HIV is evolving. Therefore, you are wrong.

If we are talking about measuring selection pressures acting at the amino acid codon level, there are 15 on untreated patient on the protease gene alone, and the database shows HIV is evolving. Therefore, you are wrong.

Whichever way you look at it - organism, gene or base pair sequence, your maths is faulty.

I am glad you finally came out with the magic number 5. I'll add it to the list of questions as an answer. Please carry on


1. Again, please tell me the minimum number of "directional "selection pressures you think must operate to prevent macroevolution by slowing microevolution to such an extent that it cannot happen within the timeframe of life on earth in the real world based on your extensive mathematical modelling.

kleinman's answer = 5 (3 modelled in ev + "a couple" more) - but less in bacteria! and organisms with a longer genome

2. If one base pair mutation is a microevolutionary event, how many base pair mutations to make a macroevolutionary event? 2? 10? 100?

(3. How many positive selection pressures are listed on the HIV positive selection database for just two of the genes? - question removed as I had to give you the answer - shame, it is the only one you could have easily got right)


4. What is your definition of a "selection pressure"

5. (for old time's sake) What is your definition of macroevolution again? (NB random lists of things you think it is are not acceptable
 
Are you not a student of population genetics? Go back to your text book and you will find that population geneticists distinguish three types of selection; they are stabilizing selection, directional selection and disruptive selection. Stabilizing selection favors an intermediate optimum phenotype and selects against phenodeviants. Directional selection is selection directed toward a new intermediate optimum, not at the mean of the population, in response to a new selective challenge. Disruptive selection, rather than favoring any one phenotype, favors two quite different forms and selects against the intermediates; this may be viewed as directional selection of two separate subpopulations, in response to two different sets of environmental conditions. These definitions are taken from the text Genetics in Medicine by Thompson & Thompson.

I think I am beginning to understand the depth of your misunderstandings. I will honestly do my best to educate you, as, in this case, it is an easy mistake to make. Please forgive my headings and the like; I'm in a strange mood. :o

=Introduction of key terms=
There are few key terms that we must understand before continuing, these being "variation", "fitness" and "selection".

-Variation-
Variation is a key concept in evolution, one which is vital for evolution if evolution is to occur. If we restrict our example to a single locus on a genome, which we will call the (made up) evo gene. This imaginary gene is 100 basepairs long. To measure genetic variation in a population (the only form of variation I am dealing with because, essentially, all variation arrises from this), we need to know the exact sequence of this gene. In our example, the sequence is the basepair Guanine (G) 100 times.

Genetic variation occurs when there exists different sequences for the evo gene in the population. Say, 20% of our population contains 80 G and then 20 T (lets call this the B allele, and the other (100% G) the A allele). The more variations of the same gene (called "alleles"), the more variation exists in the population.

-Fitness-
Fitness is fairly easy to define, and very difficult to quantify. Fitness, simply put, is a measure of "how well" an organism does compared to another. Generally, this is measured by how many offspring an organism could produce, but naturally this is very hard to judge. In practice, "fitness" is thought of in terms of alleles, not organisms. If we take some samples, and find that the 20% of our imaginary population which have the B allele, when compared to those with the A allele, produce 25% more offspring, then we could conclude (depending on statistical support for these results of course) that the fitness of the A allele is 0.75 that of the B allele. There is a reason why we do not consider the fitness of the B allele to be 1.25 that of the A allele, which I shall get into later.

In mathematical models, the fitness of an allele is given by "1-s", where "s" is the selection coefficient. In our case above, the selection coefficient would be 0.25, thus making the fitness 0.75 (1-0.25=0.75).

-Natural Selection (or "What now?")-
This is where the real bulk of evolution happens; through natural selection. In common language, selection is the force which "weeds out" unsuccessful traits in a population. It is often said that selection "selects against" unsuccessful traits while "selecting for" successful traits. Unfortunately, this is not quite the truth, but rather a close approximation which is easier to explain. Firstly, selection is not a "force" at all, but should rather be considered a phenomenon of nature. It occurs everywhere and always. Secondly, and most importantly, the phenomenon we call "natural selection" is simply the fact that those organisms which are less fit (i.e. have a higher selection coefficient) the others are, on average, less able to reproduce. Thus, they have a lower contrabution of genetic variation to the next generation then those with higher fitness (lower selection coefficients). Over time, therefore, the proportion of alleles in a population with higher levels of fitness will grow, and those with lower fitness will fall. It is this change in allele frequences which is evolution.

Now, kleinman, we come to your (implied) question. What is the difference between "stabilizing selection, directional selection and disruptive selection". The key to understanding this is that the selection occuring in these three different situations is not different in any way. Selection in all three cases provides "negative pressure" on alleles with lower fitnesses. What these different things are, are models of the results of selection, given different allele fitnesses. But natural selection does not change in any way. The equations are still the same. Alleles with high selection coefficients will be strongly selected against, and alleles with low selection coefficients will be weakly selected against. Obviously, alleles with no selection coefficient (i.e. the most "successful" allele) will not be selected against at all. This is important. The "best" allele is not selected "for", it is just not selected against. The difference is very subtle, the result is often the same, but it is fundamental to understanding your misconceptions.

Why does selection not select "for" anything? It is because natural selection is blind. If it were to select "for" something, then it would have an "end product" in mind. It would have a plan. But this is not how natural selection (and evolution), works. It is completely blind, and as such, can only "weed out" the weakest. It is this which drives the change in allele frequences.

To conclude, it is a common misconception that selection is "for" and "against" different alleles (or traits, or whatever). It is often explained as if this is the case. But when you look at the models of selection, and at the science behind selection, what we really see is that selection is only "against" and "not against". The understanding of this difference is key to the understanding of evolutionary theory as a whole.

So, to answer your (implied) questions in a straight forward manner, in the different "modes" of selection, selection is not, in fact, different at all. All that is different is the result, based upon allele fitness.


Dr Richard’s link also includes “neutral selection” which essentially occurs with mutations which don’t affect fitness.

It is an old debate, and one I'm not going to get into, but the general argument goes something like "If it doesn't affect fitness, how can it be selected for? And if it can't be selected for, how is it selection?".

The goal for directed selection is a new intermediate optimum on the fitness landscape.

And right there is your misconception. There is no "goal" for evolution. Nor is there any "goal" for natural selection. Natural selection is only "against" and "not against".

The reason you don’t understand this is that you don’t understand the different types of selection pressures. Go back to the Ka/Ks equation. When Ka/Ks = 1 you have neutral selection pressure, that is mutations occur which don’t affect the frequency of the particular gene in the gene pool, when Ka/Ks is « 1 you have a stabilizing selection pressure, that is a mutation causes a phenodeviant which is detrimental to the creature and is selected against. When Ka/Ks is « 1, the frequency of that particular mutation is reduced in the gene pool. Only when Ka/Ks > 1 do you have selection which increases the frequency of that mutation in the gene pool.

Again, it is your misunderstanding. Selection behaves no different in all three of these cases, only the result of that selection is different. When Ka/Ks = 1, the allele has no selection acting on it at all. When Ka/Ks < 1, the allele is being selected against. When Ka/Ks > 1, selection is not selecting against it. You have to remember that fitness is relative. This is one of the reasons why it is so hard to give a numerical value to fitness. Fitness is not a finite number, but a relative value based on the "optimal" allele fitness. In other words, all alleles' fitnesses are being compared to the "best" allele. The exact same allele (i.e. the same allele with the same genetic sequence) can be Ka/Ks < 1 in one population, and Ka/Ks > 1 in another. I.e. the same allele can have a low fitness in one population, and a high fitness in another. This is because fitness is relative to all other possible alleles in a population, and why all selection models always have one allele with a fitness of 1 (and thus, no selection coefficient).

These types of mutations lead to a new optimum on the fitness landscape and are thus directional in nature.

No. Selection is not directional, because selection does not have a "goal in mind" when it "selects". Selection, and evolution, are blind.

The authors have indicated that only in rare cases are selection pressures positive (or directional) (Ka/Ks > 1).

It is very true that beneficial mutations are rare.

Neutral or stabilizing selection processes do not lead to new strains in the gene pool.

If you mean "Neutral and stabilizing selection processes do not lead to a change in allele frequency", then I agree with one small correction. Alleles which are undergoing neutral selection most certainly do change in frequency. Look up "genetic drift".

Only when you have directional selection do you introduce new strains in the gene pool and again, these authors indicate that directional selection for HIV is rare. When antiretroviral medications are used on HIV, these apply directional selection pressure on the virus. Note that when a resistant strain evolves, that directional selection pressure will become a stabilizing selection pressure if the virus is still exposed to the drug.

Only directional selection pressure leads to genetic evolution. Of the hundreds of selection pressures Dr Richard refers to, only a tiny fraction of these are directional selection pressures. If you want to evolve drug resistance in HIV, use a single directional selection pressure and you can achieve this quickly because of the viruses’ high mutation rate and rapid reproduction. Combine multiple directional selection pressures and you will slow this process.

What slows is not evolution, but the arisal of the correct variation in the population. Evolution does not slow, the levels of variation decrease. Please note that this is only the case in instances where the population is significantly reduced. However, evolution (the change in allele frequency over time) does not slow. What is happening is the level of "unique features" in a smaller population is less.

You better go back and re-read your textbooks before you take your final exams.

Just for your information, I have no more finals. I already have my degree.

Unless you mean my finals for my graduate studies, in which case I can assure you that they will not deal with such basic issues which we are discussing. This stuff was covered in my second year.

I don’t know what to tell you other than go back to your textbooks and learn what the different forms of selection do.

It is you who does not understand, kleinman. The different forms of selection do not "do" anything, they "just are". The different forms are different forms of results, not different ways in which selection works.

If you teach what you are saying here, you will be misleading your students on how mutation and selection works. What can you expect from an evolutionist?

I would expect any evolutionary geneticist to understand these basic principles of genetic evolution, and so naturally I would teach it.

You still don’t understand the mathematics of mutation and selection. Once you understand what the different forms of selection are, perhaps you will be able to begin to understand the mathematics of mutation and selection.

Kleinman, you are wrong. Simply, plainly, and completely, wrong. I do understand "the mathematics of mutation and selection" (insofar as that is actually a meaningful term), and I do understand how selection works. It is you who does not understand, and refuses to learn.

If you ever graduate Sesame Street and learn how to count, you will understand how mutation and selection really works. Your own link to The HIV positive selection mutation database shows this but it must be too technical for you to understand.

This is what happens when you try to discuss mathematics with a Sesame Street drop out.

He has a far greater grasp of all of this then you do, kleinman.
 
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Taffer has no idea of what selection pressures are, he needs to go back and read his textbook, perhaps you need to do this as well.

You really should go back to school, kleinman. You would learn a lot about evolution. And why you are wrong.
 
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