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Annoying creationists

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You don't find it the slightest bit odd that you're using intelligent design to try and prove something about evolution?

I don't find it the slightest bit odd that you would use the phrase 'intelligent design' meaning something very different from common usage. I don't find it a bit odd that you would base an argument on an obvious misrepresentation.

Meeting lowered expectations is not really an accomplishment to be proud of.
 
Are you free to choose that as your faith, or was it only pre-destined?

I'm sure his thinking evolved. You seem to see the world in black and white while others see it in technicolor and can't make sense of your "Is it black or white" kind of questions.

Theology arguments always seem to end with..."and we can never know...it is beyond our understanding...and it's arrogant to try and figure it out"-- Whereas, science says, "wow, look at this path of discovery, what is the next step towards understanding more!--look at all the great stuff we've managed to figure out already!"

When the only people who support your arguments subscribe to a particular religious belief system and the majority of scientists around the world don't give your argument a second glance...don't you think that maybe, just maybe, you ought to change your sources of information?

I'm sure many Muslims agree that Christians pray to a false god. I bet I could make up an argument replete with math that convincingly proves this to them--but does if one wanted to know the truth about whether there is any scientific evidence for heaven, hell, an afterlife, reincarnation, etc...I think your best bet would be science, right? Otherwise, what is the criteria you use to determine your "intelligent designer" is more likely to be real than Kent Hovinds' Intelligent Designer or Tom Cruises' creation beliefs or Hindu creation stories? When your only evidence is to point to holes amidst a solid fact based theory...how is it you arrive at your answer which has no evidence in support of it...as opposed to someone elses' equally unsupported claim?

I don't understand where this need for a designer comes in, when it seems that natural selection and time are perfectly suited for creating complexities (that would naturally look designed in a brain evolved to recognize patterns and find meaning in them.). Humans once believed in weather gods too...who else could be responsible for huge storms and thunder... but science dared to try and find out.

If there is no "intelligent designer" hammegk and kleinman...would you actually want to know? Or would you prefer to remain secure in your belief? I would rather leave something unknown then to believe a lie. At least the unknown is a fitting place to put knew knowledge...you can't add knowledge if you think you already have "the facts" filled in. Suppose science comes to pretty strong agreement regarding the origins of life...do you then make apologies for god or call them arrogant and claim they are getting in deeper with the false beliefs they have or what? Does it never occur to you that maybe that which you have faith in, isn't worthy of your faith?
 
Here is a Thanksgiving treat for you readers;

Since it has been shown that ev takes profoundly huge numbers of generations to converge for observed mutation rates and genome lengths, ev as an abbreviation for evolution is not an appropriate acronym. The following is a list of more appropriate words for the acronym ev:

evacuate-what an evolutionist must do with his scientific objectivity in order to say the ev proves that a human genome can evolve in a billion years by point mutations and natural selection.

Is your thinking impenetrable. We understand quite a bit about the genome and there are many factors in addition to point mutation that allows for change. The fact that that never seems to penetrate your consciousness is astounding. Faith can do scary things to a brain I suppose. We can actually SEE many of the changes in DNA that have taken place not only through human evolution (and such determinations are the basis of forensic testing, paternity testing, migration studies, population genetics, etc.) but we can also see how closely related species are and what things changed to give one species an edge in a given environment... We can SEEE it. Darwin could only guess at what it was. And your understanding of pointing mutations is as limited as your understanding of other modes of creating changes in a genome so that natural selection can filter out the best of the changes. Point mutations can have huge affects on a phenotype (as in achondroplasia), and cause whole new proteins as in frame shift mutations...or they can do nothing...or they could just provide a variant that doesn't add or subtract to reproductive fitness (red hair vs. brown hair for example). And sometimes they can alter a protein just a little or cause a gene to be expressed a tad earlier or later or die out sooner--and sometimes these little changes can make a huge and lucky (or unlucky difference). Sickle cell trait (being a carrier) is caused by independent point mutations in a certain gene which caused the carriers of the gene to have a greater liklihood of surviving malaria--it changed the shape of a certain number of their blood cells which allows the spleen to grab them easier and filter them out should they become infected with malaria. This happens to be a good advantage in climates with a lot of mosquitos that carry Malaria...so we see this mutation has cropped up independently in several African populations felled by malaria (point mutations in different spots altering the same gene in a similar way)

So why should anyone take your math extrapolations seriously when you seem to have a very poor grasp of, not only the myriad of ways that genomes change,...but also a very poor grasp on the one mode you claim to know a little bit about. Not all mutations are point mutations...(and sexual recombinations are probably more important than point mutations in "manufacturing" potentially "new and improved" offspring--) and not all point mutations are of equal consequence. Tiny changes can have huge effects, and huge chunks of DNA can disappear without any noticeable effect at all. In fact, sometimes getting rid of genes confers a survival advantage. Point mutations refer to a single base pair--but DNA has a myriad of ways of coming together, changing, recombining, deleting, and editing the information in any given genome.
 
I only set up the environment; I did not rig up an information source other than the process

Human DNA --> information
Computer program --> information
Pseudorandom source --> information

These are inputs. Then when information comes out as output it is supposed to be surprising?
 
You don't find it the slightest bit odd that you're using intelligent design to try and prove something about evolution?
This is ludicrous, even for you, T'ai.

If you drop a ball, does that mean gravity is intelligently controlled? After all, the ball was dropped by an intelligent agent!

Setting up a program or experiement does not, itself, contaminate the experiment. The EV solution uses simple rules to create complexity. The fact that the EV program required vast complexity to create those simple rules is utterly unimportant. It has no bearing on what those simple rules do or do not do.

You might as well argue that math done with a calculator has a different answer than the same math done with pencil and paper.
 
What we know is:

-EV program intelligently designed
Do you have any evidence of this? Do you, perhaps, even know the name of the designer? If not, could you find it?

Funny, the exact same flaw in your argument shows up in more than one thread...
 
There is no doubt whatsoever that information evolves. "Why" is the question.
A very, very deep question that. Why does information evolve?

Unfortunately, we have to start with a definition of information. The most brilliant minds in the world have wrestled to define that term. Literally. Shannon, Einstein, Heisenberg, Maxwell, Gell-Mann, Chaitin, Komorgorov, Kullback and Leibler, Wolfram, Mandlebrot, Holland, Arthur, Kauffman, Bohr, Turing, Church, Kleene, Godel... I literally just spit out that list off the top of my head as fast as I could type. I could probably fill this page if I kept going. Almost all of these people invented entirely new disciplines while trying to cope with the ideas surrounding the concepts of "complexity" and "information." The question is linked to problems in biology, quantum mechanics, information theory, meterology, computer science, cryptography, pattern recognition, astronomy, evolutionary computation, optimization, controls theory, statistics, nonlinear dynamics, signal processing, fluid dynamics, economics, natural languages... again, I could go on all day. This subject is clearly very important, but we simply don't have a satisfying answer. Yet.

The wisest thing I've ever heard anyone say is, "Maturity is the capacity to endure uncertainty." This issue, for now, is an uncertainty we all must endure. Species evolve. Information accumulates over millions and billions of years in the genomes of these species and produces magnificent, beautiful diversity. We know the mechanics with an astounding accuracy. But we don't know why it happened. We learn more about it every day. You can sit down with just a PC, publicly available data, and open source algorithms and make totally new discoveries in biology. You want a dendogram of the evolutionary relationships between all of the organisms with sequenced chloroplasts? It's literally one command away. If you can think of the right questions to ask, there's a lot to learn. We live in exciting times.

We don't know how life started. Was it a fluke? Was it inevitable? We don't know what the odds were, we don't even know precisely what mechanisms were involved in starting this long chain reaction that ultimately produced you and me. These are open questions in science. But people have wondered about them for thousands (maybe millions) of years, and we will answer some of them in our lifetime. You might know the answers before you die, and nobody else ever did.

Anyone advertising simple answers to these questions is simply avoiding enduring the uncertainty. If people who assume they know better could stop badgering those of us actually trying to figure this stuff out, come off their high horse, and get to work, we might answer the questions sooner. Chip in and help out instead of nagging about how uncomfortable you are with certain facts we already figured out. We all want to know the real answers to these questions. Deep down, we're not comfortable with our little personal pet theories. Once we know the real answers, we can stop fighting over the made up answers we cling to in the face of that yawning gulf of uncertainty stretching out in all directions.

Emotionally, I can understand that instinct to cling. Rationally, it's the ultimate folly. An open question is an opportunity, not a threat. It's exciting. Let go of those comfortable delusions and look around. There's a chance we can all know better how we fit into this big mystery, and nobody knows how it's going to turn out.

Don't just endure uncertainty. Revel in it.
 
What we know is:

-EV program originally intended to demonstrate that information gain can be obtained via a model of random mutation and selection

-EV program intelligently designed

So does once conclude that
-this is evidence that random mutation on selection can yield information
or
-this is evidence that intelligent design can yield information
Since this is a simulation of mutation and selection, rather than a simulation of intelligent design, it proves the former.

In the same way, a simluation of the theory of gravity which gives the right results supports the theory of gravity, not the theory of Intelligent Falling.
 
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In the same way, a simluation of the theory of gravity which gives the right results supports the theory of gravity,

An intelligently designed program that supports the theory of gravity shows that an intelligently design program supports the theory of gravity.

And?
 
Man, after 10 pages of this I'm hungry.

Ingredients
For the torte:
75g/3oz milk chocolate, chopped
100g/4oz caster sugar
150ml/¼ pint double cream
3 tbsp full fat milk
1 medium egg, white
For the sauce:
25g/1oz milk chocolate, chopped
75g/3oz caster sugar
150ml/¼ pint water
icing sugar, for dusting



Method
1. Preheat the oven to 220C/425F/Gas7.
2. In a medium bowl, over a pan of simmering water, melt the chocolate.
3. In a small saucepan, gently bring the cream and milk to a simmer.
4. Stir in the sugar.
5. In a large, clean, grease-free bowl, whisk the egg white to stiff peaks.
6. Fold the cream mixture, then the melted chocolate into the egg white.
7. Pour the torte mixture into 2 x 7.5cm/3in fluted, loose-bottomed tart tins.
8. Bake for 8-10 minutes, or until cooked through.
9. Remove the tortes from the oven and allow to cool a little.
10. To make the sauce: gently heat the sugar and water until all the sugar has melted, in a medium pan.
11. Bring to the boil, then simmer until a syrup is formed. Remove from the heat.
12. Carefully remove the tins from the tortes.
13. Serve the tortes drizzled with the syrup and a dusting of icing sugar.

From here.
 
How does admitting the code is intelligently designed count as evidence against a designer? How does that work in your worldview?

Did Dr. A say it was evidence -against- God*?

No.

He said it just wasn't evidence -for- God.

Once you learn some elementary logic, you'll be able to spot the difference.

*Since the vast majority of all IDers debating on the net is really referring to God when they mean Intelligent Designer, I see no reason to not just type it out.
 
Hammegk said:
Are you free to choose that as your faith, or was it only pre-destined?
I have no faith that there is no reason why. Nor do I have faith that there is.

What I have faith in is that scientists know much less about reality than they think they do.
Are you sure they think they know a lot? You appear to want every statement by a scientist to be appended with "(But oh gosh you know I might be wrong and so don't think I'm being dogmatic <hand wringing>.)"

~~ Paul
 
T'ai said:
Human DNA --> information
Computer program --> information
Pseudorandom source --> information

These are inputs. Then when information comes out as output it is supposed to be surprising?
No, that's exactly the point, it's not supposed to be surprising, either in the computer program or in nature. Tell that to the Creationists who think the only way we can get information in nature is if goddoesit.

~~ Paul
 
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