Ann Coulter has no clue

[Lurker]

Al:

I might also add, do you have a problem with America not being rated #1 in positive categories? If we were #2, #8, or #20 would that destroy your world view? Does your patriotism and pride in the US only exist if we are #1 or can one still be patriotic and proud of America if it is not #1 in all (positive) categories?

 

[DavidJames]

I'm uncomfortable calling what Al is doing "patriotic". I have a positive view of patriotism and it doesn't include xenophobia, my country right or wrong and love it leave it.

 

[AlBell]

Are you saying that the most common normalization technique used (per capita) to compare countries was invented in order to make the US look bad?

Is that really what you are advocating?

It was developed as a technique to lie to Management.

It's turned out to be a handy way to bash the US in many "comparisons".

So you want to discard the whole concept of "per capita" ever being used again? Is that really what you are proposing?

You probably wouldn't like my real answer concerning the value of a US citizen vis-a-vis others in the world.

I propose nothing in particular. If you like lying statistics, use them. When you do, don't be surprised to get called on it.

 

[AlBell]

Evasion noted.

I only hope you are as foolish generous.

 

[johnny karate]

Surely you are not advocating making comparisons without accounting for size? I mean, that would upend pretty much the whole science of statistics.

Well, there's your whole problem right there.

 

[Lurker]

It was developed as a technique to lie to Management.

The concept of "per capita" was developed as a technique to lie to management? Are you serious, cause if you are just messing with me that is fine, we can have a laugh together.

It's turned out to be a handy way to bash the US in many "comparisons".

OK, let's not use "per capita" then. By your reasoning, the US leads the world in many categories that I was unaware we were leaders in:

1. Most cancerous nation
2. Most murderous nation (even over nations like Iran, Afghanistan, or Somalia)
3. Most criminal nation (even over lawless nations like Somalia!)
4. Most prisoners

By your measures, the US the worst when it comes to crime. Even over lawless countries like Somalia. I guess it is safer to live in Somalia than the US.

I propose nothing in particular. If you like lying statistics, use them. When you do, don't be surprised to get called on it.

Look, I think I understand your distrust of statistics. They can be used to present a very biased view of things. Generally speaking, the longer your statement the more the statistics can be used to bend reality.

That being said, statistics are not our enemy. Without a proper understanding of statistics using rates (which is the broader term for "per capita") we would have practically no advancement in medicine as only by knowing rates can we arrive at conclusions regarding the efficacies of cures. In engineering we see the same thing - rates tell us the confidence of a design, whether it is your car or the bridge you are crossing with that car.

Without "per capita", how would we know if a gun control measure is reducing crime rates or not? We can't compare year to year crimes unless we normalize for population. Without "per capita", we can't know if a tax cut has increased revenue if at the same time we have seen a population increase. Did the revenue increase due to the tax cut or due to the increased population? How would you know unless you use "per capita" in some way?

 

[BenBurch]

edit

 

[Ladewig]

The concept of "per capita" was developed as a technique to lie to management? Are you serious, cause if you are just messing with me that is fine, we can have a laugh together.

I suspect that AlBell has chosen the Ann Coulter thread to do his Ann Coulter impersonation. His goal appears to be somewhere between pissing off liberals and providing political satire. In any case, he is not being serious.

 

[Lurker]

I suspect that AlBell has chosen the Ann Coulter thread to do his Ann Coulter impersonation. His goal appears to be somewhere between pissing off liberals and providing political satire. In any case, he is not being serious.

Possibly. Sometimes people say outrageous things in the heat of a discussion and find it impossible to walk their statement back due to pride. But if it is satire, I am missing his satirical point.

 

[AlBell]

The concept of "per capita" was developed as a technique to lie to management? Are you serious, cause if you are just messing with me that is fine, we can have a laugh together.

My bad. I was still referring to percentage displays and thinking of operating and financial presentations.

Per capita does have similar problems with slanted useage and axes to grind.

OK, let's not use "per capita" then. By your reasoning, the US leads the world in many categories that I was unaware we were leaders in:

1. Most cancerous nation

Could be.

2. Most murderous nation (even over nations like Iran, Afghanistan, or Somalia)

I think Mexico has moved way ahead.

3. Most criminal nation (even over lawless nations like Somalia!)

Screwy drug laws, perhaps. That and means in many hands to buy the product.

4. Most prisoners

Drugs again.

By your measures, the US the worst when it comes to crime. Even over lawless countries like Somalia. I guess it is safer to live in Somalia than the US.

Few have anything worth stealing, and everyone has an ak-47 might have something to do with that. That, few laws to break, and fewer to enforce them.

USA #1 ! USA #1 ! USA #1 !

Look, I think I understand your distrust of statistics. They can be used to present a very biased view of things. Generally speaking, the longer your statement the more the statistics can be used to bend reality.

I distrust improper use, which too often is the case.

That being said, statistics are not our enemy. Without a proper understanding of statistics using rates (which is the broader term for "per capita") we would have practically no advancement in medicine as only by knowing rates can we arrive at conclusions regarding the efficacies of cures. In engineering we see the same thing - rates tell us the confidence of a design, whether it is your car or the bridge you are crossing with that car.

Yup. Where truly objective measures exist, stats are invaluable. Medicine sometimes reaches that objective level, sometimes not.

Without "per capita", how would we know if a gun control measure is reducing crime rates or not? We can't compare year to year crimes unless we normalize for population. Without "per capita", we can't know if a tax cut has increased revenue if at the same time we have seen a population increase. Did the revenue increase due to the tax cut or due to the increased population? How would you know unless you use "per capita" in some way?

Good try. Even using per capita, gigo rules the day on most of those "measures".

 

[Lurker]

I think Mexico has moved way ahead.

Sorry, without the use of "per capita" Mexico and the US are about even in numbers of murders. We are just as murderous as Mexico. Be proud!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

Yup. Where truly objective measures exist, stats are invaluable. Medicine sometimes reaches that objective level, sometimes not.

I am confident you will use subjecive judgements based on what the conclusion is before you decide if the stats were properly applied, right?

Good try. Even using per capita, gigo rules the day on most of those "measures".

Conservatives bleat on about tax cuts increasing revenue. Without per capita controls how can you possibly prove that? Or is your gut instinct better than those fancy statistical equations?

 

[AlBell]

Sorry, without the use of "per capita" Mexico and the US are about even in numbers of murders. We are just as murderous as Mexico. Be proud!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

"This article is outdated. Please update this article to reflect recent events or newly available information. Please see the talk page for more information. (May 2010)
This article needs additional citations for verification.
Please help improve this article by adding reliable references. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. (August 2008)

See also: List of countries by intentional homicide rate to 1999".

Great stats! Join the crowd on misuse thereof.

I am confident you will use subjecive judgements based on what the conclusion is before you decide if the stats were properly applied, right?

I might try to find some up to date data, realizing the chance it's crap too.

As to data collection country to country goes, good luck. Figures lie and liars figure is the sure bet.

Conservatives bleat on about tax cuts increasing revenue. Without per capita controls how can you possibly prove that? Or is your gut instinct better than those fancy statistical equations?

There, once you actually unwind (or identify) confounding factors, get back to me with the Trvth.

 

[Lurker]

"This article is outdated. Please update this article to reflect recent events or newly available information. Please see the talk page for more information. (May 2010)

The data was accurate as of 2009. Agreed that factors may change in 2010. But I bet using your weird method that America is still pretty close to Mexico in numbers of murders.

You don't find it odd that America is close to Mexico in number of murders and not noting the difference in population at all?

As to data collection country to country goes, good luck. Figures lie and liars figure is the sure bet.

Agreed that one must be careful with stats that they are collected similarly.

(in regards to tax cuts may or may not increase revenue)
There, once you actually unwind (or identify) confounding factors, get back to me with the Trvth.

Well one prominent factor would be population differences, before the tax cut and after the tax cut. That is why "per capita" is widely used. If you don't use it you are automatically introducing error.

 

[AlBell]

The data was accurate as of 2009. Agreed that factors may change in 2010. But I bet using your weird method that America is still pretty close to Mexico in numbers of murders.

You don't find it odd that America is close to Mexico in number of murders and not noting the difference in population at all?

Not really, since I suspect we actually tabulate murders and find most of them.

Agreed that one must be careful with stats that they are collected similarly.

And good luck verifying same.

Well one prominent factor would be population differences, before the tax cut and after the tax cut. That is why "per capita" is widely used. If you don't use it you are automatically introducing error.

Yup. And it might even be important.

 

[leftysergeant]

While we man need their oil, we don't need their whining.

What has transpired since 1973 that invalidates Gordon Sinclair's "America: The Good Neighbor" to Canada?

Reagan, GHWB and GWB.

 

[Cicero]

Originally Posted by leftysergeant

Obama tried to close Gitmo and the bed-wetting rightwingers screamed like abused children and defunded the project.

The Senate had a Republican majority in 2009? They don't even have it after the midterm election. Looks like the majority of "bed-wetter's" who "screamed like abused children and defunded the project" were......Democrats.

"In a major rebuke to President Barack Obama, the Senate voted overwhelmingly on Wednesday to block the transfer of Guantanamo detainees to the United States and denied the administration the millions it sought to close the prison.

The 90-6 Senate vote — paired with similar House action last week — was a clear sign to Obama that he faces a tough fight getting the Democratic-controlled Congress to agree with his plans to shut down the detention center and move the 240 detainees."

 

[Dorian Gray]

If Canada could make a profit selling the same amount of oil to China instead of to the U.S. they would.

See full article from DailyFinance: http://srph.it/9x9nY8
​

America: The Good Neighbor.

"This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the most generous and possibly the least appreciated people on all the earth.

Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were lifted out of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and forgave other billions in debts. None of these countries is today paying even the interest on its remaining debts to the United States.

When the Franc was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who propped it up, and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it.

When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the United States that hurries in to help. This spring, 59 American communities were flattened by tornadoes. Nobody helped.

*Snip*

June 5, 1973 editorial broadcast from Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, Canadian television commentator http://yc2.net/canadian.htm

Please do not reproduce copyrighted material in its entirety.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: LibraryLady

Are you asserting that the American government was insulted and swindled in the streets of Paris, or that individual Americans propped up the Franc?

 

[keale]

Have you started the movement to allow illegal aliens to vote? If not, what are you waiting for; millions of ready-made DemocRats await.

I must have just walked into a barn because there a lot of straw around here

 

[Lurker]

Not really, since I suspect we actually tabulate murders and find most of them.

Yes, we are a murderous nation, especially compared to "safe havens" like El Salvador, Columbia, and South Africa. Much safer to live in those sorts of places than America.