And the Jihad continues...

[Mycroft]

http://www.thejakartapost.com/detailnational.asp?fileid=20060815.G07&irec=6

Fighters to leave for Lebanon

BATAM, Riau Islands: "Jihadists" wanting to transit in Batam before leaving for Lebanon and Palestine were told Monday to depart from other cities for security reasons.

"The chances of being infiltrated by provocateurs is higher if we leave from Batam. It's better for the jihadists to transit in Dumai or Medan (North Sumatra) before proceeding to Malaysia and then to the Middle East," Muhammad Ali, founder of the Nur Fadillah Foundation, said at a gathering of 1,000 volunteers to join a declared jihad against Israel.

He said the move was made due to security reasons, not because there was any difficulty providing meals or accommodation on Batam. But he declined to say whether the 1,000 volunteers would be sent at once, saying the matter was still being discussed with the Muslim businessmen who supported the movement.

How much more of this are we going to see before we acknowledge that what we have is an Islamic Crusade?

Sure, okay, it’s a minority of Muslims. But that’s a very violent minority. Throw in some Saudi money, a little hateful Wahhabism and a promise of virgins from Bin Ladden and suddenly you got Muslim businessmen in Indonesia financing Jihadist to go inflame things between Israel and Lebanon, not to mention kids in London who identify more with the Bathists who got their butts kicked in Iraq more than their fellow Londoners and can only think of blowing up commuter trains as a way of dealing with their seething anger.

Isn't it time to set the political correctness aside and look at the Islamic angle to this?

 

[CFLarsen]

What do you mean by "Islamic angle"?

Is it the religion or those interpreting the religion you are arguing against?

 

[The Fool]

What do you mean by "Islamic angle"?

Is it the religion or those interpreting the religion you are arguing against?

Is anyone going to tell them they missed the full time whistle? Oh well, maybe they can help pick up bricks.

 

[The Don]

Isn't it time to set the political correctness aside and look at the Islamic angle to this?

And do what exactly to prevent the radicalisation of Muslim youth ?

 

[RyanRoberts]

do what exactly

Give them sharia family law, make Eid a public holiday and turn a blind eye to their brothers trying to kill the Jews have all been helpful suggestions from their community leaders.

Perhaps we could also pay some extra benefits, as a sort of "protection" scheme, I believe this is one of the prefered muslim solutions to inter communal violence historicaly.

Do you have any suggestions?

 

[The Don]

Many, many suggestions. How about:

Attempting to understand why Muslim youths are becoming radicalised in greater numbers. Merely increasing controls on the Muslim population is merely going to increase this trend as the Muslims believe they are under attack.

Perhaps we should look at the way in which our actions are perceived in the Muslim community and attempt to listen to their opinions

Merely declaring that a group is beyond reach is not going to help anyone

I believe that we should also secularise the education system and remove charitable status from ALL religious organisation.

I know that all of that sounds a bit wishy-washy but the 1.2 million Muslims in the UK aren't going anywhere (I presume you're not proposing re-patriation) so we have to find a way to communicate that means that radicalisation is inacceptable.

 

[RyanRoberts]

For a start we need to stop treating them as a block, represented by reactionary community leaders, they are citizens of this country like any other. The labour party pandering to the Muslim block vote on a constituency level has played into the hands of Islamists who wish to present the Umma as a united entity. Communal policy has a lot to answer for all round, we effectively have colonies of foreign citizens living on a diet of Al Jazeera and mobile phone snuff videos living in our major cities.

I agree with you about the removal of state faith schools, this is not the whole problem though. Secular schools with a 90%+ Muslim population serve pretty much the same purpose and many middle class Muslims can afford to send their children (at least the girls) to private Islamic schools.

listen to their opinions

Yes, but when those opinions involve altering our foriegn policy to support broad Islamist ends or allowing sharia law, we need to say no, very clearly.

It still remains the primary reponsibility of Muslims to police their own ideology or it will have to be done for them by the state, which means the use of force. It won't take many more outrages before areas of this country resemble 1970's Belfast, the tolerance of the majority population is not infinite.

 

[The Don]

It still remains the primary reponsibility of Muslims to police their own ideology or it will have to be done for them by the state, which means the use of force. It won't take many more outrages before areas of this country resemble 1970's Belfast, the tolerance of the majority population is not infinite.

You could argue that the Republican Terrorists got absolutely everything they wanted apart from the unification of Ireland.

Using this as a model for the Muslim population would be very bad because we'd end up with everything the Muslims want apart from Sharia law.


I don't know the answers to the following questions but finding out be a start:

- Why are Muslim populations so disinclined to integrate ?
- Why are Muslim youths so ready to believe that Islam is under attack ?
- Why is the government and its motives so distrusted ?

Of course you could substitute the fundamental group of any religion in the above list.

 

[gumboot]

How much more of this are we going to see before we acknowledge that what we have is an Islamic Crusade?

My prediction? When it's too late.

Sure, okay, it’s a minority of Muslims. But that’s a very violent minority.

In two decades Islam will be the largest religion in the world. A minority of Muslims is no laughing matter.

Isn't it time to set the political correctness aside and look at the Islamic angle to this?

Don't be silly. We can't actually take a serious look at this issue. We might not like what we see!

-Andrew

 

[a_unique_person]

My prediction? When it's too late.




In two decades Islam will be the largest religion in the world. A minority of Muslims is no laughing matter.




Don't be silly. We can't actually take a serious look at this issue. We might not like what we see!

-Andrew

The rise of extremist Islam was pretty apparent years ago, if anyone bothered to look. What amazed me was the inflexible attitude of American administrations to take a chance to appeal to the moderates in Iran, where extremism made it's name. Cuba is just a humorous curiosity, Iran is the real deal.

9/11 was a surprise only in it's effectiveness. The WTC had already been subject to a failed plot to bring it down. Then, the response is a boots and all blundering into the next quagmire in Iraq. As soon as that happened, billions around the world had their suspicions of the USA confirmed.

A problem isn't necessarily addressed with brute force.

 

[gumboot]

The rise of extremist Islam was pretty apparent years ago, if anyone bothered to look. What amazed me was the inflexible attitude of American administrations to take a chance to appeal to the moderates in Iran, where extremism made it's name.

Would this be before or after the CIA overthrew their evil "commi" government?

I personally think "communism" (and by communism I mean the USSR and all its puppets) was a more significant threat back then. Had the USSR not fallen, I think a nuclear war was only a matter of time.

Unfortunately the toppling of the USSR involved the encouragement of Radical Islam. The next problem.

-Andrew

 

[a_unique_person]

Would this be before or after the CIA overthrew their evil "commi" government?

I personally think "communism" (and by communism I mean the USSR and all its puppets) was a more significant threat back then. Had the USSR not fallen, I think a nuclear war was only a matter of time.

Unfortunately the toppling of the USSR involved the encouragement of Radical Islam. The next problem.

-Andrew

Not necessarily. Iran wasn't just a bastion against Communism, it was brutal, facist state that was actively aided by the US in it's brutal oppression of it's people. The extremists came out looking like the leaders of the Iranian people to freedom, and made sure they kept their hands on the levers of power.

Even then, it was not too late, all the US had to do was not be so pig headedly obstinant in it's isolation of Iran, and work to help the moderates, who had a good chance of winning back power from the extremists.

Now, it may be too late. Way to go.

The only thing that amazes me is that so many Americans were apparently surprised that someone out there held them responsible for some of their actions.

 

[Ralph]

Just a continuation of the usual pattern set in previous Arab-Israeli wars.

Dead silence when it looks like the Jews might lose. When things turn around and the Jews get the upper hand---the screams for a cease-fire are deafening.

I really thought the civilized world was going to say "enough" after Belsan.

I was wrong. I thought the Cartoon Jihad would reveal militant Islams true nature but again- the "world community" seems to have missed the obvious.

Hezbollah was tougher than expected, partly because of it's "hide amongst the civilains" tactics and partly because of it's close marriage with Iran (which supplied it with weapons that in the past--would've been beyond the reach of terrorist groups.)

I'm afraid Gumboot is right. Realization will only come after the damage has been done. What will Hezbollah have for weapons after the hudna and the attacks on Israel resume?

I'm sure they'd love to get their hands on some of that "electrical-generating machinery" Iran is so fervently working on.

 

[a_unique_person]

Hang on. People get crucified here for mixing Jews and Israelis. Are you an anti-semite?

 

[gumboot]

Now, it may be too late. Way to go.

The only thing that amazes me is that so many Americans were apparently surprised that someone out there held them responsible for some of their actions.

Radical Islam predates any US involvement in the ME though. They just use whatever slight or injury is handy. I'm not saying some of their grievances aren't reasonable ones, that's not the point.

Radical Islam is not a response to an unacceptable act carried out by Western powers. It's a culture of overwhelming blind hatred, that feeds on anything it can.

By the way, I'm not really saying the US were justified in doing what they did in Iran to stop "communism". I'm more saying the US were justified in focusing on the threat of the USSR rather than the threat of Radical Islam. I don't think Iran was important enough to worry about back then. Of course now it's a bit different...

-Andrew

 

[a_unique_person]

Radical Islam predates any US involvement in the ME though. They just use whatever slight or injury is handy. I'm not saying some of their grievances aren't reasonable ones, that's not the point.

Radical Islam is not a response to an unacceptable act carried out by Western powers. It's a culture of overwhelming blind hatred, that feeds on anything it can.

By the way, I'm not really saying the US were justified in doing what they did in Iran to stop "communism". I'm more saying the US were justified in focusing on the threat of the USSR rather than the threat of Radical Islam. I don't think Iran was important enough to worry about back then. Of course now it's a bit different...

-Andrew

"Iran" is a country of millions of people, who were collectively punished for removing a totalitarian regime, and a few radicals kidnapping embassy staff.

Fundamentalism has been around since the dawn of history, it's modern credibility was created with that event. The failed Ba'athist movement had left a vacuum, the moderates or the radicals both had a chance. The moderates got no help at all from the US, because it was too proud or gridlocked by internal politics to normalise relationships and admit it's errors in Iran.

 

[RyanRoberts]

The revolution introduced a totalitarian regime of its own, along with providing a model for Islamists everywhere.

Moderates are effectively locked out of Iranian politics by the Iranian constitution, do you want to blame that on US policy?

 

[gumboot]

"Iran" is a country of millions of people, who were collectively punished for removing a totalitarian regime, and a few radicals kidnapping embassy staff.

How were they "punished"? The only real punishment I can see that the US put on them was to back Iraq in the war - along with a lot of other countries including all the permanent members of the UN Security Council (in fact it might be the only time they ever agreed on anything!)

Khamenei had already been elected as President of Iran before the US began backing Iraq, and more than anyone else, Khamenei is responsible for the current state of Iran.

-Andrew

 

[a_unique_person]

How were they "punished"? The only real punishment I can see that the US put on them was to back Iraq in the war - along with a lot of other countries including all the permanent members of the UN Security Council (in fact it might be the only time they ever agreed on anything!)

Khamenei had already been elected as President of Iran before the US began backing Iraq, and more than anyone else, Khamenei is responsible for the current state of Iran.

-Andrew

The US hasn't had diplomatic relations with the country, for a start. There were plently of moderates in the country, the revolution wasn't all the work of the extremists.

That war with Iraq cost millions of lives. It might still make them a little angry. Look at the American reaction to 3,000 losing their lives.

 

[MilwaukeeMike]

What needs to be done is for other countries other than the US, UK, and Israel to step up to the plate an acknowledge that we are in World War 3. Not in the since like the previous world wars where you had mass armies on fronts. But in the since that terrorism has hit in countries around the world, there are terrorists coming from many different countries, and we are going to have to fight them in many different places. I applaud our fellow British friends for not tucking in their tails like the rest of Europe and trying to do the right thing, regardless of the fact we now know that facts leading up to Iraq were lies. Thats a topic for another thread. Until we have the cooperation of at least the rest of the Western World we are never going to win this fight. Not to mention it would be nice if Chine started taking some responsibility on the world stage if it truly wants to be recognized as a superpower.