And the boats keep coming

A.A. Alfie said:
I have already answered that.
I actually hate the idea of Malaysia but if the coalition made the concession I would be more happy than I am now. At least we would have a policy in place and the deaths would hopefully stop.
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But the Malaysia solution actually took more people from Malaysia than were sent to it. I would have thought that would have made you happy. In fact, there are plenty of refugees still in Malaysia. Should you and Abbott be demanding we bring them over now? You seem to be so concerned about their welfare.
 
a_unique_person said:
But the Malaysia solution actually took more people from Malaysia than were sent to it. I would have thought that would have made you happy. In fact, there are plenty of refugees still in Malaysia. Should you and Abbott be demanding we bring them over now? You seem to be so concerned about their welfare.
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It's your turn to answer a question or two:
What do you think of the Malaysia solution? Which model best represents your beliefs?
 
Not at all. I have asked this of you a number of times, and as usual you dodge. I have outlined my position fairly expansively I'd have thought.

And for what it is worth, I am more than happy to have refugees/asylum seekers. I deal with so many of them on a virtually daily basis, I have them in my home frequently. I would be happy to increase our intake. I am unhappy that some jump the proverbial queue which reduces our capacity to take the just as needy (if not more so) in countries like Kenya, Uganda and the Sudan. I am even more unhappy (in fact it angers me) that the Green's - and by default Labor's current policy - encourages people to get on boats and die.

What is your position?
 
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A.A. Alfie said:
Not at all. I have asked this of you a number of times, and as usual you dodge. I have outlined my position fairly expansively I'd have thought.

And for what it is worth, I am more than happy to have refugees/asylum seekers. I deal with so many of them on a virtually daily basis, I have them in my home frequently. I would be happy to increase our intake. I am unhappy that some jump the proverbial queue which reduces our capacity to take the just as needy (if not more so) in countries like Kenya, Uganda and the Sudan. I am even more unhappy (in fact it angers me) that the Green's - and by default Labor's current policy - encourages people to get on boats and die.

What is your position?
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Doesn't the queue jumping accusation ignore/trivialize the dire situation many of these people and their families find themselves in as well as the nature of the admissions process? It certainly appeals emotionally to the sense of "fair play" that many Australians hold.
 
Sideroxylon said:
Doesn't the queue jumping accusation ignore/trivialize the dire situation many of these people and their families find themselves in as well as the nature of the admissions process? It certainly appeals emotionally to the sense of "fair play" that many Australians hold.
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I certainly don't mean to trivialise the plight of those that come by boat. But those elsewhere that do not have the financial means nor the geographical advantage of others are forgotten in this. I would not want to accuse anyone of trivialising their dire situation. There is nothing in this issue I find trivial.

And yes I agree, there is in part an appeal to emotion, but the whole issue is emotive.

I read recently that based on current numbers our entire refugee intake will be taken up by boat arrivals (I will happily be corrected here) which means that those waiting elsewhere have zero chance of getting here and continue to wait in refugee camps.
 
A.A. Alfie said:
Not at all. I have asked this of you a number of times, and as usual you dodge. I have outlined my position fairly expansively I'd have thought.

And for what it is worth, I am more than happy to have refugees/asylum seekers. I deal with so many of them on a virtually daily basis, I have them in my home frequently. I would be happy to increase our intake. I am unhappy that some jump the proverbial queue which reduces our capacity to take the just as needy (if not more so) in countries like Kenya, Uganda and the Sudan. I am even more unhappy (in fact it angers me) that the Green's - and by default Labor's current policy - encourages people to get on boats and die.

What is your position?
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That wasn't the question I asked.
 
A.A. Alfie said:
I certainly don't mean to trivialise the plight of those that come by boat. But those elsewhere that do not have the financial means nor the geographical advantage of others are forgotten in this. I would not want to accuse anyone of trivialising their dire situation. There is nothing in this issue I find trivial.

And yes I agree, there is in part an appeal to emotion, but the whole issue is emotive.

I read recently that based on current numbers our entire refugee intake will be taken up by boat arrivals (I will happily be corrected here) which means that those waiting elsewhere have zero chance of getting here and continue to wait in refugee camps.
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Yes, those in Asia and the Middle East have an advantage over asylum seekers in Africa but Australia could make policy decisions to address this. Perhaps those people are better taken care of by European nations while we deal with those in our relative neighbourhood. Is it a bit much to expect people in dire refugee camps to take that into consideration themselves?

Do you think the queue jumping argument is perhaps to be avoided then?
 
Sideroxylon said:
Yes, those in Asia and the Middle East have an advantage over asylum seekers in Africa but Australia could make policy decisions to address this.
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I can see accusations of racism against blacks. Can't you?
Does the international community and UNHCR work along similar lines? Could it not breech our commitments under the agreements we are signatories to?

Sideroxylon said:
Perhaps those people are better taken care of by European nations while we deal with those in our relative neighbourhood.
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To be honest I have never thought about it in quite that way. My immediate answer (without thinking hard about it) would be if the international community were to make a strategy along those lines it might be acceptable I guess.

Sideroxylon said:
Is it a bit much to expect people in dire refugee camps to take that into consideration themselves?
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I don't think they care where they go and why should we preclude them from coming here?

Sideroxylon said:
Do you think the queue jumping argument is perhaps to be avoided then?
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It would be if it wasn't a factor, but it is.
 
A.A. Alfie said:
I can see accusations of racism against blacks. Can't you?
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I could see a strawman.

Does the international community and UNHCR work along similar lines? Could it not breech our commitments under the agreements we are signatories to?
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I don't know. What I had in mind re Australian policy regarding African who might be missing places due to "queue jumpers" was that we redress it by taking them despite the overall numbers.
 
Sideroxylon said:
I could see a strawman.
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You don't think anyone would throw that at our government (whoever was leading it)?
I wasn't trying to distract, it is just an observation and I think your proposal would be canned because of this as well as other factors

Sideroxylon said:
I don't know. What I had in mind re Australian policy regarding African who might be missing places due to "queue jumpers" was that we redress it by taking them despite the overall numbers.
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I am in favour of increasing our intake so I have no problem with this. But while we have x number of places available, those in Africa are missing out because of the boat arrivals.

Sadly I can see them hoping that boats sink (not unlike a expectant transplant recipient waiting on an organ).

Which reminds me of a joke I heard the other day at work (in a hospital) from one of the psychiatrists.

Q. Is it preferable to be a liver or lung transplant recipient?
A. Liver.
Q Why?
A At least you know whose sputum you are coughing up.
 
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And understanding is the key word. How do any of us really understand the situation when the stories behind the asylum seekers are so often hidden from view? Politicians have never encouraged putting human faces to the often tragic stories.

[...]

Without question these journeys are dangerous, even foolish to those who live comfortable lives in Australia. But Jaffar's journey was hardly un-Christian, un-Muslim, un-Australian, or un-Anything very much. It was to him, in all his terrible circumstances, simply a risk worth taking.

He puts it this way: "I am free now. I can live like a human being."

This is an Australian story to be proud of - and not a politician in the program.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-07-13/cassidy-an-australian-story-to-be-proud-of/4126896
 
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There is the 'proverbial queue"
If we take X number of asylum seekers per year and that number is part or fully used up by those arriving (say) by boat, that means those waiting elsewhere (say Africa) cannot come as the places are all allocated.

We all agree and understand, there is technically no queue. If you have another word I will gladly use it.

Do you understand that one person arriving by boat means another elsewhere cannot come? Often those people have been waiting years and years to leave their refugee camps.

Did I ever tell you about my friend James, here's the bones of his story. He is a Somalian. His family was caught up in the war as a young person. His father was drafted and was killed. His mother managed to get him and his siblings to Kenya and then Uganda where he spent the next 15 years (to age 30) in a refugee camp. He finally got a chance and arrived here some six years ago with his wife (who he met in the camp) and two kids, he has had two more here.
His mother a sister and brother have since died in that camp. He has another sister waiting to leave the camp - naturally he hopes she gets to Australia.

He has done some schooling since his arrival and now works as a teacher.

He sees each boat that arrives as a further delay to his sister's chances. You could not possibly convince him there is no queue.
 
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