Ancient Jewish tablet raises new questions on Jesus

[paximperium]

So a newly discovered ancient tablet that predates the supposed birth of Jesus has brought to light that the idea of a suffering messiah that is killed and resurrected is not original to Christianity but has its roots in older Jewish traditions.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/06/world/middleeast/06stone.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin

Does this really change anything?

 

[Grimes]

Does this really change anything?

Change what for whom? Any believer can just pull up an old chestnut like "da devildidit to test my faith" or "the evil atheist scientists are lying about the date" so as to not have to question their own beliefs.

 

[paximperium]

Change what for whom? Any believer can just pull up an old chestnut like "da devildidit to test my faith" or "the evil atheist scientists are lying about the date" so as to not have to question their own beliefs.

Well most of those who seem to be studying this tablet are either Christian believers or Jewish researchers.

I don't much care about the extremist religion nutbars but I do care about more "middle of the road" Christians.

 

[Olowkow]

So a newly discovered ancient tablet that predates the supposed birth of Jesus has brought to light that the idea of a suffering messiah that is killed and resurrected is not original to Christianity but has its roots in older Jewish traditions.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/06/world/middleeast/06stone.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin

Does this really change anything?

There are more miracle working gods through history than you can shake a stick at.
http://www.themystica.com/mystica/a...ypal_manifestation_of_psychological_need.html

Every culture that is examined, whether ancient or modern, has the concept of a dying and resurrected god.

 

[Gord_in_Toronto]

What always amazes me is how little Christians and even Christian Theologists know about other religions. Every bit of Christian nonsense is claimed to be unique to Christianity. If fact it is all copied from more ancient religions and religious myths.

They view the world through the same green glasses that Dorothy and her companions were asked to put on before they were allowed to enter the Emerald City.

 

[Nick227]

What always amazes me is how little Christians and even Christian Theologists know about other religions. Every bit of Christian nonsense is claimed to be unique to Christianity. If fact it is all copied from more ancient religions and religious myths.

All of it? Care to cite me references for, say, the Gospel of Thomas or the Gospel of Truth?

Nick

 

[Olowkow]

Dr. Bob Price is a bible scholar par excellence. Two Phd's in theology. It is a good place to start. A former fundamentalist turned atheist, and expert on all things biblical. Acharia S is also pretty good, but not as well documented as Price.
http://www.robertmprice.mindvendor.com/

Robert M. Price

Professor of Theology and Scriptural Studies, Johnnie Colemon Theological Seminary​

Founder and Editor, The Journal of Higher Criticism ​

Fellow, The Jesus Seminar​

Executive Board Member, The Jesus Project​

Fellow, The Committee for the Scientific Examination of Religion​

Research Fellow, Center for Inquiry Institute​

Contributing Editor, Spinoza's Lens​

The Bible Geek

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_and_comparative_mythology#Mithras This is the easy way to get started in research.


​

 

[Ichneumonwasp]

Thanks for pointing that article out, paximperium -- very, very interesting. If it pans out it may help explain a lot.

Doesn't change anything for me, but I gave up on Christianity a long while ago.

 

[Dancing David]

So a newly discovered ancient tablet that predates the supposed birth of Jesus has brought to light that the idea of a suffering messiah that is killed and resurrected is not original to Christianity but has its roots in older Jewish traditions.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/06/world/middleeast/06stone.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin

Does this really change anything?

the jewish tradition is heavily edited.

jesus the nazarene was one of many leaders of apocalytic cults. dying gods are common as well.

as to the history and context , we may never know

 

[Safe-Keeper]

What always amazes me is how little Christians and even Christian Theologists know about other religions. Every bit of Christian nonsense is claimed to be unique to Christianity. If fact it is all copied from more ancient religions and religious myths.

It's indeed ironic how people attack New Age people for picking and choosing what to believe from religions and faiths... when Christianity and the other religions came about in pretty much exactly this way.

 

[thesyntaxera]

All of it? Care to cite me references for, say, the Gospel of Thomas or the Gospel of Truth?

Nick

Yeah. There has already been a huge amount of discussion on this in the two Zeitgeist threads...so, like Nick I am wondering what sources there are?

Dr. Bob Price is a bible scholar par excellence. Two Phd's in theology. It is a good place to start. A former fundamentalist turned atheist, and expert on all things biblical. Acharia S is also pretty good, but not as well documented as Price.

http://www.robertmprice.mindvendor.com/
Robert M. Price

Professor of Theology and Scriptural Studies, Johnnie Colemon Theological Seminary
Founder and Editor, The Journal of Higher Criticism
Fellow, The Jesus Seminar
Executive Board Member, The Jesus Project
Fellow, The Committee for the Scientific Examination of Religion
Research Fellow, Center for Inquiry Institute
Contributing Editor, Spinoza's Lens
The Bible Geek

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_a...hology#Mithras This is the easy way to get started in research.

Well, Acharya's "work" has been extensively questioned and pretty quickly done away with. Price was also discussed, and many of his conclusions were drawn into question. I may be guessing, but, you wouldn't happen to be a fan of that Zeitgeist video are you?

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

All of it? Care to cite me references for, say, the Gospel of Thomas or the Gospel of Truth?

I guess I shouldn't answer on Gord's behalf, but I think he meant the kinds of stuff that Christians think of as unique to their religion--like a teaching based on compassion and forgiveness, a god made flesh, miracle stories, death & resurrection and so on. Some of the specific bits pre-date Chrisitanity, but none of the thinking is radically new.

 

[Nick227]

I guess I shouldn't answer on Gord's behalf, but I think he meant the kinds of stuff that Christians think of as unique to their religion--like a teaching based on compassion and forgiveness, a god made flesh, miracle stories, death & resurrection and so on. Some of the specific bits pre-date Chrisitanity, but none of the thinking is radically new.

Fair enough. Few or none of the main features of what became orthodox Christianity are radically new. I think, however, one has to also consider the sheer amount of human mythos that predates Christianity, and the variety of it. It would be tricky to come up with an original religion, not because they're all the same, but because so many avenues have already been walked down. You want a 12' deity who's head is made out of spaghetti? Chances are it's already been done, or at least greatly resembles the 2 cubit snake-monster of the ancient Mayans.

There's also a related matter around archetypal symbolism, but let's not bother with that.

Nick

 

[Gord_in_Toronto]

All of it? Care to cite me references for, say, the Gospel of Thomas or the Gospel of Truth?

Nick

Others have answered on my behalf while I had a good night's sleeep. Thank you all!

But I have just checked my Bible very carefully and can't find the Gospel of Thomas or the Gospel of Truth there at all. You are talking about a different version of Christianity?

 

[Nick227]

Others have answered on my behalf while I had a good night's sleeep. Thank you all!

But I have just checked my Bible very carefully and can't find the Gospel of Thomas or the Gospel of Truth there at all. You are talking about a different version of Christianity?

I was talking about the Christian literature as a whole.

Nick

 

[Bikewer]

Some years ago, I recall seeing an interview with Ellen Pagels (The Gnostic Gospels) where she referred to much older Jewish texts (pre-JC) referring to the "piercing" of a "Messiah".
This may be the sort of thing she was referring to.

 

[cj.23]

Er dudes, er what??? Why would this be in the slightest a challenge to Christianity? You really are going to spell it out for me, because as far as I can see assuming the date is correct this is exactly what Christians have always said, namely that Jesus fulfilled the messianic expectations and prophecies of the Jewish people?

Every single one of the gospels and Paul as well does just this - says that Jesus fulfilled Messianic expectations, and that his life was a fulfillment of the expectations of the time. The very passages cited - Daniel etc - are exactly those used by the Gospel writers to say "look he is the Messiah" in the Gospels, and which form the apoologetic spin of the Christian faith in its early outreach to the Jews.

It might be a kick in the teeth to Acharya S and the pagan parellists, but it says what Christians and scholars have always said?

cj x

 

[Olowkow]

Yeah. There has already been a huge amount of discussion on this in the two Zeitgeist threads...so, like Nick I am wondering what sources there are?

Well, Acharya's "work" has been extensively questioned and pretty quickly done away with. Price was also discussed, and many of his conclusions were drawn into question. I may be guessing, but, you wouldn't happen to be a fan of that Zeitgeist video are you?

I never heard of the "Zeitgeist" video.
Price merely questions the basis for claims of authenticity, and points out many contradictions and lack of stylistic consistency etc. It is just another point of view. As I said, A.S. gets too carried away I think, and loses credibility, and Price was really down on her until they actually met on the Infidel Guy's show; they got along pretty well.

Price is of course controversial. It is the sheer lack of sources to back up the biblical references that makes any real iron clad conclusions impossible on either side. This stuff is mostly opinion and interpretation based on style and other nebulous criteria.

 

[Gord_in_Toronto]

I was talking about the Christian literature as a whole.

Nick

I'm not quite sure how to respond. I don't have the time, energy or scholarship to read and research either document. However, they are part of Gnosticism and Gnosticism has been rejected by Christians as being Christian. They are not relevant; any more than the Book of Mormon would be.

 

[kedo1981]

It does show that the people of that time had a tradition of “hey, the messiah is coming and he’s going to kick your butt”.
It means that a Jesus type character was on peoples minds for a long time and almost certainly written about, discussed, embellished, long before the gospels were made up.