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An Impossible Coin Flip?

69dodge said:
That's the right answer, of course. But did you arrive at it using measure theory, or did you arrive at it using your intuitive understanding that "the chance of rain is 90%" means it will probably rain?

It's not an intuitive understanding at all. It is a learned effect. As SkepticalScience says, I know that a 90% chance of rain means that 90% of the time this forecast is given, it rains. Since I know that 90% is a very large fraction of the time, I know that it is a good idea to bring an umbrella.

Now, there is a separate question I hinted at. At what point is the probability high enough to make me bring the umbrella? That is a matter of taste, and whether you want to bring an umbrella depends on YOUR algorithm, depending on how adverse you are to getting rained on.

Don't ask the weatherman if you should bring an umbrella. He can't answer that question without knowing how adverse you are to getting rained on. If you are extremely adverse to getting wet, then you may want to bring your umbrella if there is even a 20% chance of rain. If you don't really care, then don't bring it unless the probability is very high.

For me, since I really don't care, the chance for rain has to basically be 100% for me to bring the umbrella - IOW, it pretty much has to be raining already when I leave the house.

Regardless, the weatherman has provided the information you need. You just need to use it properly. The place you are running into problems is trying to apply a discrete soluton to an inherently probabilistic problem. If you treat the whole thing from a probabilistic standpoint, it is easily solved. This is an example of where I said that life is a lot easier treating things from a probabilistic pov as opposed to discrete.
 
Probability is an attempt to glean some information from uncertainty. To complain that it doesn't give a certain answer is to ignore its purpose. There ISN'T a certain answer, but a look at the probability can help you make a wise bet, or to learn how external factors cause the tendencies to vary.
 
Re: To 69 Dodge.

SkepticalScience said:
This is an interesting thread. . .

I do think I know the answer to 69 Dodge's question though.

If the weather man says there is a 70% chance of rain, I think all they mean is that from the time they started collecting wether data, for days with conditions similar to today, 70% of those days rained.

actually, in phoenix, the weather is pretty predictable, and when they say there is a 70% chance of rain, it generally means that it will rain of 70% of the metro area (being such a large area).
 
Re: Re: To 69 Dodge.

RussDill said:
actually, in phoenix, the weather is pretty predictable, and when they say there is a 70% chance of rain, it generally means that it will rain of 70% of the metro area (being such a large area).

I am always very careful in proclaiming to interpret weather forecast probabilities. It's not a trivial issue. There are meterologists who _specialize_ in the area of forecast assessment (and professional meterologists take classes in the area). To think it can be summed up in a simple way is a little, um, simplistic, I think.
 
Re: Re: Re: To 69 Dodge.

pgwenthold said:
I am always very careful in proclaiming to interpret weather forecast probabilities. It's not a trivial issue. There are meterologists who _specialize_ in the area of forecast assessment (and professional meterologists take classes in the area). To think it can be summed up in a simple way is a little, um, simplistic, I think.

Seriously, no, the weather here is very simplistic. I be surprised if meterologic students aren't given beginning classes by studying weather patterns in phoenix. Course, by trivial, it is trivial in comparison with other areas.

The wind almost always blows in the same direction at the same time of the day, the only changes to that wind and direction being high and low pressure areas, since the terrain is largely flat. Moisture comes primarily from the pacific, where it has already passed through california. Tropical storms from the gulf of mexico occasionly pass through, but there is plenty of notice on those.
 
BillyJoe said:
This sounds interesting but what actually is Susskind trying to say?
Perhaps he's trying to say that some students don't understand statistics. That's certainly what he seems to be saying as far as I'm concerned.
 
gnome said:
Probability is an attempt to glean some information from uncertainty. To complain that it doesn't give a certain answer is to ignore its purpose. There ISN'T a certain answer, but a look at the probability can help you make a wise bet, or to learn how external factors cause the tendencies to vary.

I like your first sentance a lot, but I might change it to "Probability is an attempt to provide predictability despite uncertainty."

Back to my favorite area, athletics, I like to think of an athletic competition as a probabilistic event. For example, if I took a team A and cloned it to create team B, and had them play each other, who would win (put it in a neutral arena, so that neither has home advantage ;))? Since the teams are perfectly equal, you would have to see that each has an equal chance of winning. In that case, you can say that team A has a 50% chance of winning. What that means is that if they played a very large number of games, that the amount that team A would win would approach 50%. But suppose they only play 1 game? In that case, one team would win, but the other would lose. However, that does not mean that one team was actually better than the other. It is just a consequence of small sample size.

Now, suppose one team is a little better than the other. Maybe if they were to play a large number of games, team A would win 60% of the time. What would you see if you only played 1 game? Well, team A is certainly more likely to win, but we aren't surprised if team B wins. Again, a sample size of 1 is not enough to distinguish them.

Now make the difference larger. Suppose it is 90%. In that case, we would be surprised to see team B win, although it is certainly not out of the realm of possibility. In fact, if you have enough 90/10 matchups occur, you won't be surprised if the upset happens. Maybe 1 out of 10 games will be upsets, for example (of course, that is what 90% means).

Take this to the next level. Suppose a team has a 99% chance of winning. That is a very lopsided game, right? It's basically bigger than that 90/10 split above. And sure enough, you would say that a team with a 99% chance of winning is pretty clearly the better team, right? But given 100 of these types of matchups, you expect there to be an upset. That doesn't mean that the underdog is better than the team they beat, it just reflects the fact that since no one is ever 100% assured a win, given a large enough sample size, upsets will occur. In fact, I tend to say that by probability, not only CAN upsets occur, they MUST occur. No upsets occuring is far more unlikely than no upsets occuring.

This has implications in lots of places. For example, watch the NCAA basketball tournament. No #1 seed has ever lost to a #16 seed. Given the number of games that have been played (probably around 100, I think (that would be 25 years worth)), that suggests that the average 1/16 match is > 99% in favor of the #1 seed. Meanwhile, a #15 over #2 upset occurs about every other year, so it looks to be about 90%/10%. A #3 is upset basically every year, so we are talking a 75%/25% advantage there, and it keeps dropping rapidly. This is why it is so difficult to predict the outcome of this type of tournament, because the probabilities drop very quickly as you move down the seeds. By the time you are to 8 vs 9, it is basically 50/50. Now, you can make great predictions about what will unfold, and that there will be upsets in these rounds etc, but identifying where the upsets will occur is something that is very hard to do.

Another application comes in evaluating competition levels. For example, given baseball's sample size of 162 games, the final winning pct is a decent reflection of the range of quality. Thus, most baseball seasons are fairly consistent with the notion that the best team wins about 60% of the time against average competition the worst team wins about 40% of the time against average competition, and everyone else is evenly distributed between them. This will lead to standings that are indistinguishable from what is observed in real life, where the best teams win 95 - 100 (+/- a few, maybe .650 at the best) and the worst teams win 60 - 65 (+/- a few, down to maybe .350).

Meanwhile, football is very well known for it's wider distributions of records, as teams end up with records as good as 14 - 2 (.875) or even 15 - 1, and 13 - 3 is common, whereas at the other end, you see 2 - 14 and 3 - 13. However, this wide distribution is very much a consequence of a 16 game schedule. In fact, the distribution we observe for the NFL implies a scenerio where the best team wins about 65% against average competition, and 35% at the low end. The gaudy records that are obtained are actually a result of deviation in a small sample size. If baseball had a 16 game schedule and kept that 60 - 40 distribution, 12 - 4 records would be fairly common, and you would even see 13 - 3.

One consequence of this deviation in the NFL is that it is far more common that the best team (the one who has the best chance of winning against an average opponent) does not have the best record in the league, and have the third, fourth, or even worse best record. The NFL compensates for this by letting more teams in the playoffs so that the best team is more likely to get there. Of course, this means that the NFL ends up getting a lot worse teams in their playoffs, too, letting in teams that are getting there not because they are necessarily "better", but because they just happened to get wins against better teams through basically chance. If the year before they were 6 - 10 and this year they go 10 - 6, everyone thinks they had a big tournaround. However, it could just be that they are actually an 8 - 8 team that were unlucky in year 1 and lucky in year 2. The other conclusion is that despite the appearance of "parity," it is actually artificially created by having a short season and lots of playoff teams. If baseball played 16 games and had 6 playoff spots, you'd see even more teams making the playoffs, more often. Similarly, if the NFL played 162 game schedule like baseball does and had only 4 playoff teams per year, you would see the same teams dominate from year to year, even more than you do in baseball now.

This is the kind of analysis that you can do if you view the world from a probabilistic standpoint.
 
I understand probability pretty well. I'm just trying to convert everyone to Bayesianism, that's all. :D

Originally posted by pgwenthold
It's not an intuitive understanding at all. It is a learned effect. As SkepticalScience says, I know that a 90% chance of rain means that 90% of the time this forecast is given, it rains. Since I know that 90% is a very large fraction of the time, I know that it is a good idea to bring an umbrella.
I don't care about the past. The past already happened. Sometimes I got wet; sometimes I didn't get wet. Whatever. I can't change that. I just care about the future.

In the future, will it rain exactly 90% of the time that this forcast is given? No, probably not.

About 90% of the time? Probably, but not for sure. There's a small chance it won't.

If I don't know what "probably" means, why should I believe that it will rain about 90% of the time in the long run? It's not certain to, after all. And if I do know what "probably" means, I can simply say it will probably rain today, without bringing up any other days at all.
Now, there is a separate question I hinted at. At what point is the probability high enough to make me bring the umbrella? That is a matter of taste, and whether you want to bring an umbrella depends on YOUR algorithm, depending on how adverse you are to getting rained on.

Don't ask the weatherman if you should bring an umbrella. He can't answer that question without knowing how adverse you are to getting rained on. If you are extremely adverse to getting wet, then you may want to bring your umbrella if there is even a 20% chance of rain. If you don't really care, then don't bring it unless the probability is very high.
Yes, that's a good point, but I haven't even gotten to that stage yet. I'm still trying to determine what "20% chance of rain" means, or "90% chance". I don't see how to avoid taking probability as a primitive notion. It's no good trying to define probability in terms of relative frequency in a long series of trials, because it is not guaranteed that the relative frequency will be close to the probability; it is merely very probable that they will be close. So we're just going in circles. What does that "probable" mean?

Do you see the problem with the frequentist approach?
 
69dodge said:
I'm still trying to determine what "20% chance of rain" means, or "90% chance". I don't see how to avoid taking probability as a primitive notion. It's no good trying to define probability in terms of relative frequency in a long series of trials, because it is not guaranteed that the relative frequency will be close to the probability; it is merely very probable that they will be close. So we're just going in circles. What does that "probable" mean?

Do you see the problem with the frequentist approach?

No, I don't see the problem. Is there a problem in saying

lim relative frequency = probability
n->oo

?

I could think of lots of things "20% chance of rain" could mean. For example, substituting various predictors for rain (temp, if it rained last week, time, geographical area, humidity, etc.) into a multiple logistic regression equation and getting .2 as an estimate.
 
Originally posted by jzs
Is there a problem in saying

lim relative frequency = probability
n->oo

?
There is a problem with taking that to be the definition of probability. The problem is, how can we ever know what the limit is? The limit of a sequence doesn't change if we change a finite number of terms, which means we can't determine the limit by looking at a finite number of terms. And in any application of probability to real-life problems, we have only a finite number of terms to look at. The limit could be anything at all, and still be consistent with the terms we know about.
I could think of lots of things "20% chance of rain" could mean. For example, substituting various predictors for rain (temp, if it rained last week, time, geographical area, humidity, etc.) into a multiple logistic regression equation and getting .2 as an estimate.
An estimate? What is it an estimate of? How close is it to what it's estimating? Are you sure? Maybe it's very far. It's probably close, you say? We are pretending I don't yet know what "probably" means. That's what you're trying to explain to me.

Where did the equation come from? It came from a finite number of previous observations. Maybe the next ten years will be radically different from the last ten. They probably won't be, you say? We are pretending I don't yet know what "probably" means. That's what you're trying to explain to me.
 
69dodge said:
The problem is, how can we ever know what the limit is?


I can't know what the true probability of heads is. But I can flip the coin a number of times, observe the % heads, and conclude that the long-run frequency of heads is 50%.

Here is an Excel file that I put on my webpage, that does this for flipping 100 'coins' (course the same demonstration could be done with a real coin). Press F9 to see how things chance with different outcomes of flipping.
(see attached graph)

I'm conjecturing two things

1) the line goes approximately near the .5 line

and

2) for a larger number of coins, the line gets closer to the .5 line

We could of course see where the line tends to for an object or situation where we don't know in advance what the limiting behavior is. We simply observe it in that case.


An estimate? What is it an estimate of? How close is it to what it's estimating?


It is estimate a 'true' probabiltiy of rain which we postulate to exist, but be unknowable, but estimatable by observation. We have a theoretical model and we keep in mind that all models are wrong, but some are useful. :) We can compare what our model predicts to what actually occurs.


Where did the equation come from? It came from a finite number of previous observations.


We assume the model to be based on being additive and linear (in this case). This seems a reasonable place to start and gets good results in practice. We can't observe an infinite number of things, absolutely. We base our models on good theory and previous studies.
 
pgwenthold said:

Meanwhile, football is very well known for it's wider distributions of records, ...


Sounds like you like sports, statistics, and sports statistics. :) Here are a few papers you might find interesting:

Basketball
Investigating home court advantage
http://www.amstat.org/publications/jse/v6n2/datasets.nettleton.html

Baseball
Home runs
http://www.amstat.org/publications/jse/v6n3/datasets.simonoff.html

Baseball statistics
http://www.amstat.org/publications/jse/v10n2/albert.html

Hall of fame
http://www.amstat.org/publications/jse/secure/v8n2/datasets.cochran.new.cfm

Football
Team strength
http://www.amstat.org/publications/jse/v9n3/datasets.watnik.html

Overtime bias
http://www.maa.org/mathland/mathtrek_11_08_04.html

Iced-foot effect
http://www.maa.org/mathland/mathtrek_11_15_04.html

Golf
Golf clubs and driving distance
http://www.maa.org/mathland/mathtrek_08_18_03.html
 
Re: Re: Re: An Impossible Coin Flip?

69dodge said:
Choose Bayesians, obviously. :D


I guess I don't see a need to choose. :) Both ways of thinking are good at solving different problems.

I'm curious though; do you view a probability distribution as the limit of a frequency histogram?
 
pgwenthold said:
But these are simple statistical statements that were being made. The short answer is that we know (assuming it is a fair coin), the probabilty of any result. If the standard error is 30, then the answer is that if you run the exercise a very large number of times, then about 2/3 of the time you will get between 470 and 530.
So if I run three million trials, and in each trial I consider it a "success" if I get between 470 and 530, it is certain that I will get two million trials?


jzs said:
No, I don't see the problem. Is there a problem in saying

lim relative frequency = probability
n->oo

?
Um, yeah, there is a problem. Relative frequency is not well defined in term of n.
 
Thanks for all the interesting responses.
I probably understand about 2/3 of them. :D

But, I forgot to mention that Susskind made this response in answer to the question: "What do you believe is true even though you cannot prove it?"

So, what is Susskind saying he believes is true even though he cannot prove it?....

If I were to flip a coin a million times I'd be damn sure I wasn't going to get all heads.
"Damn sure"? Meaning "absolutely certain"??
Because there is a chance, isn't there, (admittedly a vanishing small chance) that it could happen?

I'm not a betting man but I'd be so sure that I'd bet my life or my soul. I'd even go the whole way and bet a year's salary.
I'd definitely make that bet, after all the odds are extraordinarily good (though not absolutely certain).

I'm absolutely certain the laws of large numbers—probability theory—will work and protect me.
It seems to me he is saying that the "laws of large numbers" will ensure that he will win a whole years salary.
If he is merely saying that the chance of losing is vanishingly small, I don't think he is saying anything we all don't already agree with. In which case, I don't know why he is bothering to say it.

But, I can't prove it and I don't really know why it works
So, what is he referring to when he says "it can't be proved" and "don't know why it works"? If he is saying this about being damn sure/absolutely certain that he will win a years salary, then it makes sense to ask those questions (because I don't think that it's true). On the other hand, if he is saying this about the chance of losing being vanishing small, then I think that we can already prove that and know why it works, can't we?

Perhaps some of you have sort of answered this above, but can anyone state it more clearly and succinctly?


BillyJoe
 
Art Vandelay said:
So if I run three million trials, and in each trial I consider it a "success" if I get between 470 and 530, it is certain that I will get two million trials?

Define "certainty" (whoops, wrong thread)

The short answer is that you can calculate the probability that you will get 2 million "successes".
 
jzs said:


Sounds like you like sports, statistics, and sports statistics. :) Here are a few papers you might find interesting:
[/B]

I've done a lot of this type of stuff in my life, although nothing official.

If you want a good start into this type of thinking, look into the "Hidden Game" books by John Thorn and/or Pete Palmer. They started with "The Hidden Game of Baseball" and I know there is at least a Hidden Game of Football, and I think they also have a basketball book (don't know about hockey).

For example, in their football book, they indirectly address the issue in one of the football studies you linked, the one that discusses normalizing defense for time on the field, etc.

A lot has been done since T&P started, but their books are a great starting place.
 
jzs said:
No, I don't see the problem. Is there a problem in saying

lim relative frequency = probability
n->oo

?


There's a very big one if you're dealing with non-reproducible events. I believe that McNabb and Vick are due to meet in a few days for a playoff game. They're not going to play an infinite number of games (or even two games), but I need to know what the probability of Vick winning so that I know whether to accept the 2-1 one of my friends has offered me.

If the probability of Vick winning is better than 33.3%, then it's a good bet. But there's no way we can assess that as a limit process.
 
Take McNabb. There'll probably be cold, crappy weather in Philly, which will inhibit Vick's ability to run, and if he can't run he can't do anything. Honestly, he must be the least accurate passer to ever make it to a conference title game. Can he throw it hard and far? Yes. Does have have any idea where the ball will go? Often not.

While sports statistics are fun to play with I think it's fun to prove anything with them because you forever have small N. Sure, over time N gets big, but over time conditions change too, so you either include old stats, which don't accurately reflect the present, or else you only include new stats, which gets you back to the small N problem. Even the sport that prides itself on remaining the same over time (baseball) has a lot of variation, and that's even before taking this crazy home run spree into account over the last 10-15 years.

I do think that probability plays a part in the popularity of sports though in that people love it when "miracles" occur and they are susceptible to perceiving that a 1 in 10 or 1 in 20 shot occuring is a miracle.
 
Number Six said:
I do think that probability plays a part in the popularity of sports though in that people love it when "miracles" occur and they are susceptible to perceiving that a 1 in 10 or 1 in 20 shot occuring is a miracle.

This is similar to the point I make above. A team with a 1 in 20 shot of winning is a decided underdog, but you know, if you have enough of these types of games, upsets will happen.

And dr kitten has a valid point about 1 game matchups, but I like to turn it around. The problem is not assigning a probability to a one game sample, it is more how do we interpret the outcome of a one game sample?

In estimating a probability of the one game, we have 17 games worth of data to evaluate for each team to try to get probabilities. Still not a huge data set, but bigger than 1. However, we recognize that 17 games is still not a big data set, and those 17 games are subject to variation like anything else, and, as noted, we must assume consistency in certain attributes (although we must be careful about this - let's not be quick to assign a "cold weather effect" to Michael Vick based on a small data set; we don't know if Vick is actually worse in cold weather or if those are just the games in which he played worse for other reasons (if there are even examples of such. it's not clear why cold weather will affect a running QB in the first place); Brett Favre is a good example of this. A lot has been made of his great "cold weather ability" and how he is 32 - 1 or so in games he has started where the temperature is below 32 degrees. However, if you look at those games, you note that 1) the Packers have generally been very good as it is during that time. Based on their overall record alone, I wouldn't be surprised to be around 21 - 12. 2) Games below 32 degrees have generally been games at home, where the Packers are even better. Therefore, we don't know if the 32 - 1 is because Favre is really that much of a cold weather qb, or whether it is because the Packers over that time were a very strong home team and just happened to win that distribution of games)

But back to the interpretation. Suppose the Eagles win. What does that tell us? It tells us that they are the team in the Super Bowl, but other than that, not much. For example, it doesn't tell us that the Eagles were more likely to win. Shoot, as far as we know, it could easily be that the Falcons would win 85% of the time on a neutral field. Playing in Philadelphia, it might be 65%. But events that happen 35% of the time are not uncommon (no one is surprised by a die coming up either 5 or 6, when 1 - 4 would be twice as likely to happen). Thus, if the Eagles win, we don't know if that means that they were 100% locks to win (1 - 6 on a die), or whether they were a 35% underdog on a die that happened to roll of 5 or a 6.

Now, we can put that result into context with the other things that happened this season, and get a better idea, but that leads to a little loss in quality of the assessment.
 

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