An Astrology Exchange/Challenge

[Nonpareil]

We have to do stuff to create karma.

How does doing stuff create karma?

Is there any evidence for musical notes? Would they exist if there was no one to hear them?

Are you asking if the air would still vibrate at certain frequencies if there was no one around? If so, the answer is yes. If you are asking if the human system for classifying musical notes would exist if there were no humans, the answer is no.

Imaginary concepts like "justice" and "mercy" are also dependent on our minds interpreting situations.

Yes.

Yes, it's all internal. We're talking philosophy and art here, not empirical science. The only "evidence" is our subjectivity and our conscience.

So, in short, it's magical thinking bolstered by confirmation bias. It doesn't actually mean anything.

They have been just notions or concepts up until recently, but in the legal system for example, DNA evidence is now making justice more of an objective reality.

No. It's making the solution to the crimes an objective reality. But knowing who did it does not mean that justice is served. You said it yourself. Justice is subjective.

The reason I bought up evolution at all, is because the whole process is surely a form of natural justice.

No, it isn't.

EDIT: Oh, and have we found out what it is that astrology does yet?

 

[Aquila]

EDIT: Oh, and have we found out what it is that astrology does yet?

Thanks for your comments everyone, and thanks Hokulele for explaining the details about Natural Selection and Lamarkism, which I did learn in high school but had obviously forgotten. To me, the whole point of this current revival in interest in Darwin is that we have an explanation of how life evolved (Natural Selection) which does not require a creator, so that the whole things becomes explainable as a mechanism of action and reaction. It is this mechanism, along with other concepts, which I think can be represented by the symbols of astrology as a language of correspondences.

Can this language do anything testable? Probably not by empirical standards. But it does seem to satisfy some people who are searching for some sort of organizing principle to life. The way I see it is that these people are searching for a middle ground: they find religion rubbish, and find science too mechanistic, so look to astrology for "soul" of the big picture.

Just also wanted to revive the comparison of astrology to musical notes. Actually, notes are a very good magical correspondence to astrology, and Johannes Kepler used them in his Harmony Of The Spheres theory.

I think that if we are going to continue this discussion we have to stop trying to find evidence for astrology - other than the subjective stuff we've already discussed, we are probably not going to find any. We are going to have to see it as a magical system of correspondences, which perhaps still has some value in today's world.

 

[Sledge]

So if we're going to continue this discussion to establish what, if any, proof there is for astrology, we have to stop trying to find said proof?

 

[Hokulele]

Can this language do anything testable? Probably not by empirical standards. But it does seem to satisfy some people who are searching for some sort of organizing principle to life. The way I see it is that these people are searching for a middle ground: they find religion rubbish, and find science too mechanistic, so look to astrology for "soul" of the big picture.

That's just it, there isn't any organizing principle to life. (Well, except gravity, that does tend to organize things certain ways.) Searching for one is once again doomed to failure, unless one starts making stuff up, which is precisely what is seen with astrology.

Just also wanted to revive the comparison of astrology to musical notes. Actually, notes are a very good magical correspondence to astrology, and Johannes Kepler used them in his Harmony Of The Spheres theory.

Sure, astrology as entertainment or art is fine by me. Just realize that art reflects reality, not the other way around.

I think that if we are going to continue this discussion we have to stop trying to find evidence for astrology - other than the subjective stuff we've already discussed, we are probably not going to find any. We are going to have to see it as a magical system of correspondences, which perhaps still has some value in today's world.

Using astrology for determining how to live one's life is as bad a decision as using Wagner's Ring Cycle. Sure, it can be done, it doesn't mean it should be done.

 

[dafydd]

Thanks for your comments everyone, and thanks Hokulele for explaining the details about Natural Selection and Lamarkism, which I did learn in high school but had obviously forgotten. To me, the whole point of this current revival in interest in Darwin is that we have an explanation of how life evolved (Natural Selection) which does not require a creator, so that the whole things becomes explainable as a mechanism of action and reaction. It is this mechanism, along with other concepts, which I think can be represented by the symbols of astrology as a language of correspondences.

Can this language do anything testable? Probably not by empirical standards. But it does seem to satisfy some people who are searching for some sort of organizing principle to life. The way I see it is that these people are searching for a middle ground: they find religion rubbish, and find science too mechanistic, so look to astrology for "soul" of the big picture.

Just also wanted to revive the comparison of astrology to musical notes. Actually, notes are a very good magical correspondence to astrology, and Johannes Kepler used them in his Harmony Of The Spheres theory.

I think that if we are going to continue this discussion we have to stop trying to find evidence for astrology - other than the subjective stuff we've already discussed, we are probably not going to find any. We are going to have to see it as a magical system of correspondences, which perhaps still has some value in today's world.

Kepler was a great astronomer,but his religious beliefs led him to the nonsensical idea of the Harmony Of The Spheres.No such thing exists.Where is your proof of the existence of karma?

 

[dafydd]

Thanks for your comments everyone, and thanks Hokulele for explaining the details about Natural Selection and Lamarkism, which I did learn in high school but had obviously forgotten. To me, the whole point of this current revival in interest in Darwin is that we have an explanation of how life evolved (Natural Selection) which does not require a creator, so that the whole things becomes explainable as a mechanism of action and reaction. It is this mechanism, along with other concepts, which I think can be represented by the symbols of astrology as a language of correspondences.

Can this language do anything testable? Probably not by empirical standards. But it does seem to satisfy some people who are searching for some sort of organizing principle to life. The way I see it is that these people are searching for a middle ground: they find religion rubbish, and find science too mechanistic, so look to astrology for "soul" of the big picture.

Just also wanted to revive the comparison of astrology to musical notes. Actually, notes are a very good magical correspondence to astrology, and Johannes Kepler used them in his Harmony Of The Spheres theory.

I think that if we are going to continue this discussion we have to stop trying to find evidence for astrology - other than the subjective stuff we've already discussed, we are probably not going to find any. We are going to have to see it as a magical system of correspondences, which perhaps still has some value in today's world.

It has never had any value in today's or yesterday's world.

 

[Nonpareil]

It is this mechanism, along with other concepts, which I think can be represented by the symbols of astrology as a language of correspondences.

Can this language do anything testable? Probably not by empirical standards.

Then we're done here. Astrology officially does nothing.

 

[dafydd]

Then we're done here. Astrology officially does nothing.

Yes,we're done here.

 

[Akhenaten]

So if we're going to continue this discussion to establish what, if any, proof there is for astrology, we have to stop trying to find said proof?

The answer, my friend, is blowin' in the wind . . .


d'oh. Now I've made haboob of myself.

 

[Olowkow]

Thanks for your comments everyone,[.....zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz, yawn.........zzzzz....words.....words......] magical system of correspondences, which perhaps still has some value in today's world.

I read this, laughed, uttered a few WTF's and thought pensively and thoughtfully in my thinking, "So if we're going to continue this discussion to establish what, if any, proof there is for astrology, we have to stop trying to find said proof?"

I dozed off for a few moments, as I could not resist the narcotic effect of the stupefyingly dull soporific content of the prose, and had a dream in which a tiny leprechaun appeared and excitedly stated in a high pitched yet authoritative voice, "So if we're going to continue this discussion to establish what, if any, proof there is for astrology, we have to stop trying to find said proof?" or words to that effect. I thought, "how very odd, yet truly wise and prophetic".

Then, as is my wont on occasion, I scrolled down and, oh my, but to my surprise, there was a concise yet insightful as usual pithy comment by the famed Sledge who apparently had been secretly monitoring my thoughts of late:

by Sledge: So if we're going to continue this discussion to establish what, if any, proof there is for astrology, we have to stop trying to find said proof?

.
Well, I guess I beat you to it this time Sledge! in my dreams at least.

 

[Olowkow]

Non sequitur deleted

 

[Sledge]

Then, as is my wont on occasion, I scrolled down and, oh my, but to my surprise, there was a concise yet insightful as usual pithy comment by the famed Sledge who apparently had been secretly monitoring my thoughts of late:

Ssssh! I'm trying to get people to subconsciously accept my psychic powers before I put in for the MDC.

But it is nice to see that I wasn't the only one confused by Aquila's comment. I had a few moments of thinking "what WAS this thread about?" before posting. I wonder if s/he was aiming for a zen thing? "To find the truth, you must stop looking" "To cook the chicken, you must turn the oven off" "To debate the woo, you must switch your brain off" kinda thing.

 

[Olowkow]

Ssssh! I'm trying to get people to subconsciously accept my psychic powers before I put in for the MDC.

But it is nice to see that I wasn't the only one confused by Aquila's comment. I had a few moments of thinking "what WAS this thread about?" before posting. I wonder if s/he was aiming for a zen thing? "To find the truth, you must stop looking" "To cook the chicken, you must turn the oven off" "To debate the woo, you must switch your brain off" kinda thing.

It's funny because I literally fell asleep reading her post. I tried again, and realized it is nonsense, and that's when I gave up, thinking pretty much what you posted, and when I saw your post, I just couldn't stop laughing. As you said somewhere else, Sledge II 12:32 I believe, she "almost" gives up on astrology, but not quite.

 

[Sledge]

Yeah, she's got this weird thing of acknowledging that astrology is crap, then putting forward another woo explanation of how it works. I can't even begin to comprehend how this makes sense in her head.

 

[Olowkow]

Originally posted by Aquila:
The way I see it is that these people are searching for a middle ground: they find religion rubbish, and find science too mechanistic, so look to astrology for "soul" of the big picture.

I don't recall very many astrology proponents on JREF at least who were not also big time into religion. What does "middle ground" mean in this context? Half way between science and religion? What on earth is "soul of big picture?" How would you or anyone ever derive any meaningful sense of "the big picture" from astrology?

I think that if we are going to continue this discussion we have to stop trying to find evidence for astrology...

I just can't wrap my head around this statement. Could be I'm not smart enough to pursue a discussion with constraints of this type. You are more than welcome to "think" whatever you want, but you cannot get away with this sort of presupposition without being called on it.

 

[Aquila]

As you said somewhere else, Sledge II 12:32 I believe, she "almost" gives up on astrology, but not quite.

Firstly, you guys are being really silly. Go back and read my post. I was talking about the discussion, which was started by Hokulele as an exchange of ideas about astrology, including the idea of astrology as a philosophy or art. Misquoting me only denigrates the whole purpose of this forum.

I don't think you can blame me for "not quite" giving up on astrology overnight, just because a handful of people on a forum tell me that it's all confirmation bias. If you had spent the last 20 years of your life looking at horoscopes and finding, or at least thinking that you had found coincidences which pointed to correlation, you would understand that giving up on it all is a gradual process. It's probably like people giving up on their religion - there are a lot of emotional reasons why they want to stick with the devil they know, rather than break through into something new.

I am actually feeling rather disgusted at the whole thing in hindsight. I don't think my studies were so much a waste of time as I never really thought of myself as "an astrologer" but rather someone who took an interest in it. But I am disgusted at how a group of people - a "cult" or "sect" could intimidate me so much and ruin my self esteem for several years. As I mentioned earlier, in the other post, I think, I began studying kaballah to find out if there was anything worthwhile in the mystical side of the religion that my father was persecuted for - Judaism. I met my husband through the organization I was studying with and in fact married him in their Temple. But when I wanted to go to the same secret ritual meetings as he went to, I was told that I was not "ready" for them. I found this unfair, as there were people who were going to these meetings who had studied less of the organization's material than I had - and the fact that they were not Jewish but chanting Hebrew prayers made it even more hypocritical. The hierarchy were judging me on other criteria than academic study, and I suspect that they didn't like my questioning the secrecy of the whole thing.

They made me feel that perhaps I should study harder in order to understand "the mysteries", so I just continued studying astrology on my own. Meanwhile, being rejected from a group to whom I had trusted my "spiritual" development was devastating. I am sure that it affected my self - esteem as a wife and mother.

I am telling you all this not because I want to send you to sleep with a sob-story, but to hopefully give you some understanding of my feelings. If everything you skeptics are saying is true - if occultism, like religion is merely a load of rubbish - then shouldn't these people be told to stop hurting people with their superior attitudes?

 

[PixyMisa]

Thanks for your comments everyone, and thanks Hokulele for explaining the details about Natural Selection and Lamarkism, which I did learn in high school but had obviously forgotten. To me, the whole point of this current revival in interest in Darwin is that we have an explanation of how life evolved (Natural Selection) which does not require a creator, so that the whole things becomes explainable as a mechanism of action and reaction. It is this mechanism, along with other concepts, which I think can be represented by the symbols of astrology as a language of correspondences.

Except that astrology doesn't work.

Can this language do anything testable? Probably not by empirical standards.

In other words, no.

But it does seem to satisfy some people who are searching for some sort of organizing principle to life.

As long as you don't care whether any of it is actually true, yeah.

The way I see it is that these people are searching for a middle ground: they find religion rubbish, and find science too mechanistic, so look to astrology for "soul" of the big picture.

The problem is, astrology is every bit as rubbish as religion.

Just also wanted to revive the comparison of astrology to musical notes. Actually, notes are a very good magical correspondence to astrology, and Johannes Kepler used them in his Harmony Of The Spheres theory.

Which was wrong.

I think that if we are going to continue this discussion we have to stop trying to find evidence for astrology - other than the subjective stuff we've already discussed, we are probably not going to find any.

This is because it is entirely made up nonsense.

We are going to have to see it as a magical system of correspondences, which perhaps still has some value in today's world.

No; it has no value now, and never had any value.

 

[PixyMisa]

I don't think you can blame me for "not quite" giving up on astrology overnight, just because a handful of people on a forum tell me that it's all confirmation bias. If you had spent the last 20 years of your life looking at horoscopes and finding, or at least thinking that you had found coincidences which pointed to correlation, you would understand that giving up on it all is a gradual process. It's probably like people giving up on their religion - there are a lot of emotional reasons why they want to stick with the devil they know, rather than break through into something new.

When I realised that the Bible was just a story and that there was no reason to believe any of it, I stopped believing.

I am actually feeling rather disgusted at the whole thing in hindsight. I don't think my studies were so much a waste of time as I never really thought of myself as "an astrologer" but rather someone who took an interest in it. But I am disgusted at how a group of people - a "cult" or "sect" could intimidate me so much and ruin my self esteem for several years. As I mentioned earlier, in the other post, I think, I began studying kaballah to find out if there was anything worthwhile in the mystical side of the religion that my father was persecuted for - Judaism.

There isn't.

I am telling you all this not because I want to send you to sleep with a sob-story, but to hopefully give you some understanding of my feelings. If everything you skeptics are saying is true - if occultism, like religion is merely a load of rubbish - then shouldn't these people be told to stop hurting people with their superior attitudes?

Yes, absolutely. But if you think you're hard to convince, just try to convince someone who's made this sort of thing their entire life.

 

[Hokulele]

Firstly, you guys are being really silly. Go back and read my post. I was talking about the discussion, which was started by Hokulele as an exchange of ideas about astrology, including the idea of astrology as a philosophy or art. Misquoting me only denigrates the whole purpose of this forum.

I don't think you can blame me for "not quite" giving up on astrology overnight, just because a handful of people on a forum tell me that it's all confirmation bias. If you had spent the last 20 years of your life looking at horoscopes and finding, or at least thinking that you had found coincidences which pointed to correlation, you would understand that giving up on it all is a gradual process. It's probably like people giving up on their religion - there are a lot of emotional reasons why they want to stick with the devil they know, rather than break through into something new.

I am actually feeling rather disgusted at the whole thing in hindsight. I don't think my studies were so much a waste of time as I never really thought of myself as "an astrologer" but rather someone who took an interest in it. But I am disgusted at how a group of people - a "cult" or "sect" could intimidate me so much and ruin my self esteem for several years. As I mentioned earlier, in the other post, I think, I began studying kaballah to find out if there was anything worthwhile in the mystical side of the religion that my father was persecuted for - Judaism. I met my husband through the organization I was studying with and in fact married him in their Temple. But when I wanted to go to the same secret ritual meetings as he went to, I was told that I was not "ready" for them. I found this unfair, as there were people who were going to these meetings who had studied less of the organization's material than I had - and the fact that they were not Jewish but chanting Hebrew prayers made it even more hypocritical. The hierarchy were judging me on other criteria than academic study, and I suspect that they didn't like my questioning the secrecy of the whole thing.

They made me feel that perhaps I should study harder in order to understand "the mysteries", so I just continued studying astrology on my own. Meanwhile, being rejected from a group to whom I had trusted my "spiritual" development was devastating. I am sure that it affected my self - esteem as a wife and mother.

I am very sorry to hear what happened to you because you are exactly right, what they said and did to you was completely wrong, in so many ways.

I am telling you all this not because I want to send you to sleep with a sob-story, but to hopefully give you some understanding of my feelings. If everything you skeptics are saying is true - if occultism, like religion is merely a load of rubbish - then shouldn't these people be told to stop hurting people with their superior attitudes?

You are half right here. They must be told, but will they listen? Will their victims listen? Unlike with music, if good advice and solid facts aren't heard, it is as if the words were never spoken.

 

[dafydd]

Yeah, she's got this weird thing of acknowledging that astrology is crap, then putting forward another woo explanation of how it works. I can't even begin to comprehend how this makes sense in her head.

The Red Queen syndrome? I can believe in six impossible things before breakfast?