An Argument against School Vouchers

[hammegk]

hammegk, your clever comment was:
"I may spel funny, but does that mean I'm as dumb as you?"

You must be so proud of yourself

Er, not really. Thaks for yur kind advise, although keeping it to yourself seldom brings unwanted results.

I've had very good, direct experience and success working within the public schools my children have attended. Can you provide specific examples of problems you have experienced and what actions you've tried to correct the situations?

I agree that good parents can ensure their children recieve a decent education from nearly any publik skool.

The real test is percentage of graduates who can actually enter kollege without remedial math, english, or for god's sake reading. Percent who graduate at all might mean something, but if they can't read, write or do arithmetic who really thinks the school did a good job with public education.

If you happen to be in a "good" school, congratulations on your choice of school districts to be in. Would you be in an urban Denver location by any chance? I'll bet you a cup of coffee the answer is no.

And interestingly, a comment from DialecticMaterialist of a good Califunia school. My same basic comments on them. BTW, I suspect a high percentage of JREF participants are or will be good parents, and will do what it takes to see their kids do get educated.

 

[dmarker]

This is not about public schools versus private schools, this is about the right of tax payers to have input on how their money is spent whether or not they have a school age child.

 

[hammegk]

This is not about public schools versus private schools, this is about the right of tax payers to have input on how their money is spent whether or not they have a school age child.

Or about your right to define reality anyway it suits you. Somehow I find discussion about vouchers is my question, not yours.

 

[DialecticMaterialist]

Reform

I say the answer is reform. There is no reason why public schools are intrinsically inferior and private superior. There is no reason why public schools have to do poorly.

I'd say instead of the untested, risky voucher method we work towards reforming public schools.

How? Well look at countries where public education is working very well, South Korea, Japan, Canada, and Finland. Emulate them.


Explore what they seem to have right and what we seem to be doing wrong. If implemented correctly, this will make our public schools do superior to private schools.

Rankings of how effective education is per country:

1. South Korea 1.4 percent
2. Japan 2.2
3. Finland 4.4
4. Canada 5
5. Australia 6.2
6. Austria 8.2
7. Britain 9.4
8. Ireland 10.2
9. Sweden 10.8
10. Czech Republic 12.2
- (tie) New Zealand 12.2
12. France 12.6
13. Switzerland 13
14. Belgium 14
- (tie) Iceland 14
16. Hungary 14.2
- (tie) Norway 14.2
18. United States 16.2
19. Germany 17
- (tie) Denmark 17
21. Spain 18.6
22. Italy 20.2
23. Greece 23.2
24. Portugal 23.6

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/11/26/world/main530872.shtml



The US's being 18 is a disgrace. We are the world's richest and most powerful nation and there is simply no excuse for this.

Now we can learn for ourselves through a long inefficient process how to improve ourselves or learn from other nations.

Strangely enough though, the problem may lie more with attitudes towards education within the home and society then how the school systems are set up.

It is clear that educational disadvantage is born not at school but in the home," said the report. "Learning begins at birth" and is fostered by "a loving, secure, stimulating environment."

How many of us were taught the value of education regularly by our parents?

Most of us were expected to get jobs at 14 or 15 at the expense of our schooling. Compare this to how my friends mom, who was chinese forbid her daughter to get a job so that she could focus on education. Her rationale was "being a student is your job." How'd her daughter do? She got straight "A's", not only that but she got them even though she has severe depression.

In fact I believe getting a job while your in a school is one of the worst things for your education. However this behavior is still widely practiced and widely encouraged. (You don't need much reasoning to realize why this is bad: it leaves less time for schooling, giving them a competitive disadvantage over students who don't have jobs, sometimes work hours do not bend for school hours, it usually to exhaustion and sleep deprivation, etc.)

Also its not that Americans are lazy or we don't spend enough time in schools.

UNICEF spokesman Patrick McCormick said the study had been unable to draw conclusions on a range of factors, such as how much was spent on education. Some countries spent less and did better.

Also just to head off criticism:

UNICEF said it based its conclusions on combining results of tests conducted by the Program for International Student Assessment, or PISA, conducted in 2000 and the Trends in International Math and Science Study, or TIMSS, given in 1995 and 1999. TIMSS is backed in the United States by the Department of Education and the National Science Foundation and globally by the International Association for the Evaluation of Educational Achievement.

 

[hammegk]

Dear DialecticMaterialist

Nice comments, easy answer. Put accountability & funding for schools at the local level.

Sorry, no can do. Everyone is exactly equal in abilities since the mid-60's.


Added for your reading pleasure ....

http://www.opinionjournal.com/columnists/dhenninger/?id=110003475

 

[Thumper]

Could a religion class be more useful academically than an elective or study hall?
In my experience, the answer is "it depends on the diocese." And, of course, the teacher.

Yep. Our school prided itself on being a college-prep school. However, there were religion classes that were wastes of time, but that was attributable to the teacher and not anything else.

 

[DavidJames]

"I agree that good parents can ensure their children recieve a decent education from nearly any publik skool. "

On this we agree completely. A child who is not interested in learning will not be successful either at public or private schools.

Why dilute public schools focus and funding? Easy, politics (personal and corporate) and payback to religious fundamentalists.

 

[kittynh]

HEY! I send my kids to private school...

Well, I'm NOT RICH!!! And I send both my kids to private school. For one thing, most decent private schools have great scholarships that are based on ability to pay. There is a great service that figures this out for the schools, so they don't even have much say about the amount. Now, once your kid is in the school, if he/she proves a hard worker and an asset to the school, then there are those private scholarships from alumni that also help out. If your kid is bright, the prep schools LOVE it. If your kid is bright and personable, and can sit next to old grads at fund raising dinners and charm the heck (and money) out of them - then you have it made.

Why do I send my kids to private schools...well, I like small class sizes. I like teachers who are relaxed and dedicated. I like my one daughters school so well I got a job there. As a teacher I love the supportive administration, I love having the time to spend with each child. I love the money for extras - like one computer for every two children, and computers in the classrooms. I like the classroom sizes - HUGE!

Prep schools or private high schools are great! The kids are all on the college track. The teachers come in on the weekends and evenings to tutor the kids. They kill themselves to get your kid in a good college.

Another luxury, if a child doesn't fit in, they are asked to leave. This does not mean behavior problem. Private schools are not one size fits all. I teach at a MOntessori school. If your child is hyperactive it is hard for the child to be as self motivated as is required. The self motivation is taught, but if you are very hyper it just doesn't work out.

My youngest is a severe dyslexic. The teachers love her - and gladly put in the extra time she needs. In fact in a class of 35 (average for our public school) she would need a classroom aid (paid for by the taxpayers). In a class of 30 with 3 full time and 2 part time teachers she is fine.

So, if you are willing and have the time to drive your kid to school, you can send your kid to a private school, you just have to qualify for scholarship money. Sure it would run out if everyone decided to send their kids, but every year money goes to waste because not enough people know. Especially the prep schools. A lot of them are boarding, and some parents can't get over that. A visit showed me that my daughters prep school was probably one of the best high schools in the world. This place is fabulous, because people keep dying and leaving them gobs of money (I'm talking millions). I remember visiting and thinking, "How can they have all these antiques just in the hallway???". It's like a nice home more than a school. But, you put the kids in nice surroundings and they act nice! The weird part is the kids are all happy. Happy learning teenagers. That's because this school is for VERY bright girls, and they are happy because they have found a whole school full of kids like they are!

sorry to go on and on. But no way a voucher would pay for these schools. No voucher is going to pay $15,000 a year, close to $22,000 boarding. That's why 80% of the people at most prep school are on scholarship. They actually pay what their parents can afford.

The school I teach at costs $8,000 a year. I will say our town has to pay for the public school students to attend the high school in the next town. That costs $10,000 a year. Some towns allow the parents the option of the money or the public high school education. Now that makes sense! But vouchers, no.

So, the taxpayers get a free ride with my kids. It costs the taxpayers more than $8,000 a year to educate a child in the public school. My youngest qualifies for a classroom aid and that would cost over $25,000 a year! But, I hate it when I go to the public school and town meetings and am told by other parents, "you can't talk about the school , your kids don't go there.". I of course keep my mouth shut! (I once dared to ask why we were teaching Spainish but not French, when we live to close to Quebec).

sorry to rant...but it's not all rich people at these schools!

 

[dmarker]

Or about your right to define reality anyway it suits you. Somehow I find discussion about vouchers is my question, not yours.

Why is it your question?

 

[dmarker]

Re: HEY! I send my kids to private school...

So, the taxpayers get a free ride with my kids. It costs the taxpayers more than $8,000 a year to educate a child in the public school. My youngest qualifies for a classroom aid and that would cost over $25,000 a year! But, I hate it when I go to the public school and town meetings and am told by other parents, "you can't talk about the school , your kids don't go there.". I of course keep my mouth shut! (I once dared to ask why we were teaching Spainish but not French, when we live to close to Quebec).

sorry to rant...but it's not all rich people at these schools!

Tell them that you still pay local taxes. My argument does apply to those who chose private schools for their children as well as those with no school age children.

And what happens to the kids who are hyperactive? Who educates them?

Yeah, private schools are great, however both Thomas Edison and Albert Einstein would have been kicked out. Not to mention a number of other geniuses like James Clerk Maxwell who pioneered radio waves. None of those three really "fit in" their school environments. Many others didn't either. How many private schools are rejecting young Einsteins, Edisons, and Maxwells?

But I digress. This is about how someone's tax dollars are spent, not about how great private schools are. I've explained my position clearly and I have yet to see an adequate counter argument.

Laud private schools all you want, but why should I have to pay for it when I have no input?

 

[shanek]

Re: Re: HEY! I send my kids to private school...

Yeah, private schools are great, however both Thomas Edison and Albert Einstein would have been kicked out.

They were. And government schools would have just "mainstreamed" them and made the experience so boring and miserable as to take all of the fun out of learning for them. Then where would they be?

 

[dmarker]

Re: Re: Re: HEY! I send my kids to private school...

They were. And government schools would have just "mainstreamed" them and made the experience so boring and miserable as to take all of the fun out of learning for them. Then where would they be?

Probably the same place, perhaps being ostracized suited these geniuses better than being accepted. I mean work wise not social wise.

However many children have been hyperactive and not geniuses, myself included, that would be kicked into a public school system. Because of my childhood experiences, I'm likely to lobby on behalf of children with hyperactivity even though I am childless.

If my tax money goes to the Montressi school, am I able to lobby that school to make accomadations for hyperactive children? Why should I give money to a school that would have rejected me when I was a child?

Yes, parents have the right to educate children as they wish. But they have no right to do this on my dime. If parents want a private school, then they have the responsibility to pay for it instead of forcing me to.

 

[kittynh]

well I agree...

I don't think tax dollars should go to my private school. In fact, my school has publically stated it would not accept tax payer money because then they would lose the freedom they now have. As soon as you accept public money, you have to start taking state tests - you have to teach what they want you to teach (like mandatory citizenship education). It gets so you lose control. The hyperactive kids it should be noted almost always go to another little private school in the area that has more structure. It is a more traditional style school with a predictable day that ADHD children respond well to.

The one size fits all school model just doesn't work all the time. The Catholic school in town is really great for kids that need lots of emotional support, and offers really great parent educational services too.

I don't think any child is well served in a class size of 37. Actually, I think the person who suffers the most in the teacher! It's unfair to ask a teacher to do crowd control instead of teach. Raise my taxes, but don't spend it on more administrative staff, build classrooms a decent size and hire some teachers!

It should be noted that deaf children, and children with Down's Syndrome are sent to boarding schools out of state. The town claims they can't hire the staff needed to deal with these children. We live in a very rural area, and they may be right. It's just a pity that kids as young as 7 are farmed out.

But vouchers won't work if the schools won't take them!

 

[shanek]

Re: Re: Re: Re: HEY! I send my kids to private school...

However many children have been hyperactive and not geniuses, myself included, that would be kicked into a public school system.

I have a 5-year-old with both hyperactivity and autism. So far, he's been both in private preschools and government preschools. The private preschools' solution was to reconstruct his work area and give him the special attention he needs. The government's solution was to give him ritalin.

I've talked to other parents in similar situations. Their children are faring far better in private schools than public. My ex has severe dyslexia and went from being a straight-A/B student in private school to being a D student in government school.

So I'd really like to know why you think children so afflicted fare better in government schools than private.

If my tax money goes to the Montressi school, am I able to lobby that school to make accomadations for hyperactive children?

No, and this is one big reason why vouchers are a completely bad idea. The other is that, I guarantee you, there'll be strings attached. Maybe not this year, but soon. For evidence, look at the record of sending government funds to private colleges.

Yes, parents have the right to educate children as they wish.

Absolutely agree 100%. You realize, though, that the logical extension of this argument is the elimination of government (not public) schools?

 

[shanek]

Re: well I agree...

I don't think tax dollars should go to my private school. In fact, my school has publically stated it would not accept tax payer money because then they would lose the freedom they now have.

Good for them. At least there's some semblance of sense and realism around.

 

[dmarker]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: HEY! I send my kids to private school...

I have a 5-year-old with both hyperactivity and autism. So far, he's been both in private preschools and government preschools. The private preschools' solution was to reconstruct his work area and give him the special attention he needs. The government's solution was to give him ritalin.

I've talked to other parents in similar situations. Their children are faring far better in private schools than public. My ex has severe dyslexia and went from being a straight-A/B student in private school to being a D student in government school.

So I'd really like to know why you think children so afflicted fare better in government schools than private.



No, and this is one big reason why vouchers are a completely bad idea. The other is that, I guarantee you, there'll be strings attached. Maybe not this year, but soon. For evidence, look at the record of sending government funds to private colleges.



Absolutely agree 100%. You realize, though, that the logical extension of this argument is the elimination of government (not public) schools?

I never said one was really better than another. I just said that I do not want my tax money going to a school where I have no say. If parents want to send their kids to private schools, then they should pay for it. I am willing to refund their share of school funding out of their taxes, but my money should go to public schools where I have control. The quality of private schools are not at issue here, I'm sure that there are many fine ones, the issue is my rights as a taxpayer.

Of course there are strings attached to government money. That's my whole argument about my tax dollars, every penny comes with a string attached to it.

What's the difference between government schools and public schools?

 

[dmarker]

Re: well I agree...

I don't think tax dollars should go to my private school. In fact, my school has publically stated it would not accept tax payer money because then they would lose the freedom they now have. As soon as you accept public money, you have to start taking state tests - you have to teach what they want you to teach (like mandatory citizenship education). It gets so you lose control. The hyperactive kids it should be noted almost always go to another little private school in the area that has more structure. It is a more traditional style school with a predictable day that ADHD children respond well to.

The one size fits all school model just doesn't work all the time. The Catholic school in town is really great for kids that need lots of emotional support, and offers really great parent educational services too.

I don't think any child is well served in a class size of 37. Actually, I think the person who suffers the most in the teacher! It's unfair to ask a teacher to do crowd control instead of teach. Raise my taxes, but don't spend it on more administrative staff, build classrooms a decent size and hire some teachers!

It should be noted that deaf children, and children with Down's Syndrome are sent to boarding schools out of state. The town claims they can't hire the staff needed to deal with these children. We live in a very rural area, and they may be right. It's just a pity that kids as young as 7 are farmed out.

But vouchers won't work if the schools won't take them!

That's so true. So "school choice" can't be bought with my tax dollars anyway. Might as well allow refunds of tax dollars earmarked for public schools to the parents who paid that amount and let the parents make up the difference.

Nothing wrong with expressing your views to the school board and other elected public officials. After all they are supposed to be working for you.

Why can't they hire the staff? None in that area?

 

[dmarker]

Re: Re: well I agree...

Good for them. At least there's some semblance of sense and realism around.

Unlike those who want to use my tax money without my input.

 

[shanek]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: HEY! I send my kids to private school...

I never said one was really better than another. I just said that I do not want my tax money going to a school where I have no say. If parents want to send their kids to private schools, then they should pay for it. I am willing to refund their share of school funding out of their taxes, but my money should go to public schools where I have control. The quality of private schools are not at issue here, I'm sure that there are many fine ones, the issue is my rights as a taxpayer.

Okay, I agree with that 100%. In fact, the tax refund for sending your kid to private school or homeschooling them was one of my campaign issues.

What's the difference between government schools and public schools?

Public schools are answerable directly to the public, as our schools were before the 1950s or so. Government schools are run by the government, and so you have to go through the government to affect any change.

 

[shanek]

Re: Re: well I agree...

That's so true. So "school choice" can't be bought with my tax dollars anyway. Might as well allow refunds of tax dollars earmarked for public schools to the parents who paid that amount and let the parents make up the difference.

Actually, I'd go even further. I'd allow other taxpayers, individuals or businesses, to contribute to the tuition of any child, and be eligible for a dollar-for-dollar tax refund up to their share they paid. Since businesses pay a lot more in taxes, this is a good source of funding for those parents having trouble affording it. A business could contribute to the education of the children of its employees, for example.