Almo
Masterblazer
Just curious. If you don't mind saying, how did you wind up talking to a diamond? And yeah, you're right it's weird he wouldn't talk about the size of his business.
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NewtonTrino
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My Dad who is still active hooked me up with the guy. Basically I wanted my Dad to ask him how much he made but he just had the guy call me directly instead.
It was a very interesting conversation just not fruitful in terms of getting information. These guys have their own "unique" way of looking at the world, that's for sure. It's kind of like talking to an evangelical about their religion.
It was a very interesting conversation just not fruitful in terms of getting information. These guys have their own "unique" way of looking at the world, that's for sure. It's kind of like talking to an evangelical about their religion.
icerat
Philosopher
Triple Diamonds Greg & Laurie Duncan are currently in bankruptcy, it looks like due to disputes with the IRS. There's lots of interesting docs on PACER you can look it, including his estimated assets of over $63 million dollars (the debts are about $8 million). With reference to how much he makes from Amway, for February - December 2007 (11 months) the following was listed -
Ordinary Income/Expenses
Income
* Bonuses Received $447,741.43
Total Income $447,741.43
Gross Profit $447,741.43
Expense
Promotional Product $6807.16
Performance Bonuses Paid $4171.03
Bank Service Charges $149.70
Rent - Office $26500.00
Misc business expenses $500.00
TOTAL EXPENSE $38,127.89
NET ORDINARY INCOME $409,613.54
While they qualified Triple Diamond in 1998 they've never been recognized as Founders Triple Diamond and are not on "founders council" so it's unlikely they are requalifying at that level. Greg Duncan was on the IBOAI as recently as 2006, which requires you to be at least qualifying Diamond, so their business, which qualified at somewhere between those levels. Since 2007 Amway has significantly increased the bonuses for qualified Diamonds and above, so their income has likely gone up somewhat.
Ordinary Income/Expenses
Income
* Bonuses Received $447,741.43
Total Income $447,741.43
Gross Profit $447,741.43
Expense
Promotional Product $6807.16
Performance Bonuses Paid $4171.03
Bank Service Charges $149.70
Rent - Office $26500.00
Misc business expenses $500.00
TOTAL EXPENSE $38,127.89
NET ORDINARY INCOME $409,613.54
While they qualified Triple Diamond in 1998 they've never been recognized as Founders Triple Diamond and are not on "founders council" so it's unlikely they are requalifying at that level. Greg Duncan was on the IBOAI as recently as 2006, which requires you to be at least qualifying Diamond, so their business, which qualified at somewhere between those levels. Since 2007 Amway has significantly increased the bonuses for qualified Diamonds and above, so their income has likely gone up somewhat.
NewtonTrino
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So how much was the tool income?
icerat
Philosopher
It's a little difficult to be sure, but direct tool/ticket/tape income appears to have been, for the full year (jan-dec 07) -
WWG - Pool $131,197.18
In addition Greg Duncan's on the WWG (WWDB) board. From what I understand WWG is run by a board made up of the 20 largest diamonds in the organisation, and they're paid proportionally based on a forumla that includes the number of downline diamonds.
I'm pretty certain that is this income -
Management Fees - $188,053.47
Greg Duncan has brother and Crown Brad Duncan in his downline, so I expect his proportion of management fees would be one of the largest.
There's also -
Speaking Income - $134,875.00
However I don't know if that's entirely Amway related. Many successful Amway people earn money on the generic business/leadership/motivational circuit as well. Personally I don't consider speaking income to be an issue as it's primarily earned from outside your own Amway group. I think ethics issues arise if the expenses you are charging your own group are excessive in relation to their (and your) Amway incomes.
Expenses came to $139,658.23 (mostly venue rental)
Net "tool"+"speaking" income $320.273.81
So less than half his total Amway income. If you take out speaking fees and take just "tool profit" it makes up about 30% of his total Amway income.
Nowhere near the 90%+ that some claim, and it's pretty fair to suggest he'd be in the upper ranks of "tool income" earners for WWDB.
Duncan of course reported a lot more income than these two figures, he is for example part owner of Sarshela LLC, the company which makes XS energy drinks and successfully pitched Amway to market it. They also sell their products elsewhere. Note the XS deal wasn't some "given" inside deal, they failed for example in getting Amway to sell their "Fitness Water", that contract went to another company.
NewtonTrino
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THAT IS ABSOLUTELY OUTRAGEOUS! If you want to know whether Amway is a scam people here is the proof right from Icerat himself. 30% of his income (at least) is coming from selling crap to his downline. That's unabashadly scam territory.
Also remember this is what they DECLARED. This business has traditionally had a large cash basis...
Porkchopjim
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I wonder if Amway would be so quick to claim $320K from tools/system as "Amway Income."
Well, you heard it here first, folks!
"Less than half" is tapespeak for "almost as much" - Tool/system income is "almost as much" as real "Amway income."
Well, Amway DOES say that 'some IBOs may make money from the sales of tools and training.' So, at least it's all above board!
Telling people to buy their own products so you get a cut, and then tack on telling them to buy your other products, too, and I can see why some people would be excited about that business!
icerat
Philosopher
The "crap" jibe aside, 100% of his directly Amway related income comes from selling things to Amway downline. That's what the business is all about.
Having said that, what you're conveniently ignoring is that he doesn't make any money from Amway for most of his downline. Just because someone is technically in your downline does not mean you should help them for nothing. Actually, techinically anyone downline of a platinum in his group is not part of his Amway downline - they're now frontline to Amway, that's how the plan works.
Do you think Duncan, or anyone else, should offer business related products and services for free to people they have no other financial interest in helping, and are in fact technically competitors?
Why should he not be profiting from supplying products and services to these people?
For that matter, why shouldn't he be able to profit from supplying training products and services to people from whome he's profiting by selling Amway manufactured and sourced products and services?
Seriously, assuming everyone knows the situation (and I'm aware that's not always been the case), where is the ethical problem?
IBO buys large amounts of SA8 washing powder, sells downline at a markup.
IBO buys large amounts of training CD, sells downline at a markup.
Purely from an ethical perspective, where is the problem with the second that doesn't occur with the first?
All businesses have traditionally had a large cash basis. Then things like credit cards got invented. What decade are you in exactly NT? In WWDB and most, perhaps all, systems these days all payments are made to WWDB, typically by credit/debit card or cheque. None is made to individuals. In 10 years I've never given cash to my upline for anything. In fact I've never paid my upline for any tools (incl seminars) in any way, let alone cash. I pay N21, always have.
You're just confirming how out of touch you are (a) with Amway today and (b) with Amway outside of your limited experience.
NewtonTrino
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I'm fine with it as long as it's disclosed that at least 30% of his income comes from selling them tools.
Gimme a break. You're the own that supplied the numbers here. This kind of income from tools is clearly SCAM territory. Why isn't he giving some of that money back to people in the organization or charging less for the tools? Bottom line is that he's making tons of money selling tools into his organization.
I hear they're taking paypal for a lot of tools these days as well. Still doesn't mean there is no cash involved especially at large functions.
Your spin is ridiculous. This simply isn't a moral way to run a business.
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icerat
Philosopher
Seriously, from a purely ethical standpoint, what difference does it make if it's 30%, 50%, or 90%?
And the numbers have what to do with your claim there's large cash amounts, which was what my comment referred to?
How? He's selling products and services to other businesses at prices generally cheaper than available in the generic marketplace. How is that a scam?
Why doesn't he charge less for Amway products and give money back to people in the organization?
What effect do you think it would have on a networking structure if he charged less to his personal Amway group than he did to people outside his personal group?
Yes, and I don't have a problem with that. When I joined a decade ago I was shocked to discover people were shocked that businesses were (shock! horror!) making money selling products and services to people. I just assumed that there was "money in tools" because that's how businesses operate. It would be unusual if there wasn't! (note again: I'm aware some people may have been actively deceived, that's a different issue)
Sure, limited amounts - paid to WWDB, not to individual diamonds.
Selling specialist products and services at a markup (at a cheaper rate than is available from generic suppliers!) isn't a moral way to run a business? Care to explain why?
NewtonTrino
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None, those would all be scam numbers. The higher the number the bigger the scam.
The cash thing was a complete side comment. I hereby withdraw it.
Well when you put it that way where do I sign up? Are you SERIOUSLY asking me this question?
Why does he have to charge so much to begin with?
It's classic bait and switch. Your argument is that the tools money is now disclosed (which is a lie) and that makes it ok.
Because the downline are systematically lied to and manipulated into buying these "tools" which are nothing more than ways to line their uplines pockets. Just because you have a chance to "build your own network" and do the same thing doesn't make it moral. This is classic pumping suckers who they know will never be succesful for as much money as they can take. Good business? Yes! Moral? No.
This kind of business WITHIN AMWAY gives high level distributors an incentive to sign up people even if they aren't going to actively build their business or if they have no chance of building a large network. In the same way those at the top of a pyramid scheme constantly need new suckers coming in.
Anyway I think we already know where you stand on this issue. Nothing that your precious network21 does could possibly be bad under any circumstances. Bottom line, it's a business cult that preys on peoples dreams.
Come back and defend it once you've actually made some money doing it.
Porkchopjim
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Wait a minute:
The qualifications of upline higher pins is NOT based upon the qualifications of downline pins...which is based ultimately on the combined volume of products ...that includes in the price of that product the money used to pay all bonuses upline...and so therefore Amway Diamonds, according to the Icerat Amway Plan do not make any money from most of their downline's sales?
Magic money pays that Diamond's bonus? And here I thought that all bonuses were paid based on the amount of products that are 'moved' (see 'self consumed') through the pyramid.
I'm pretty sure that's just a plain old bald faced lie that you're trying to feed here. The poor Diamond doesn't get any money from his downline's volume so he has to sell tools to make ends meet. Right.
Seems to me the rules say: “Qualified Diamonds and above who personally or foster-register 6 or more North American groups, each of which qualifies at the 25% Performance Bonus Level for at least 6 months of a given fiscal year, receive Diamond Bonus points and payment...”
My goodness. That sure looks like making money from downline sales.
icerat
Philosopher
Why?
Yes - but remember I'm talking tapes/books/seminars here. They're generally cheaper than you'll find in the generic sales & motivational marketplace.
Again, it's cheaper than the public competitors. I can't see how anyone can seriously claim he is charging "so much".
How is it a "classic bait and switch"? For those who are perhaps less experienced in business than I, Amway has for more than a decade had multiple statements in a variety of different media telling people that folk make money selling tools. As I said IMO it's frankly a bit silly they need to, since it should be obvious, but where is the "bait and switch"? The guy makes significantly more on Amway products from his Amway business than he does from tools. For people not in a "management" position it's even more the case.
What lies?
And I personally by this stuff because I find it of value. Whether it lines the pockets of the people who sell it is pretty irrelevant to me.
You keep dodging the question. Why do you think it's immoral?
How so? (1) the great majority of people who join Amway *do not* buy tools. (2) the great majority of people who buy Amway products even within the network *do not* buy tools. (3) people who do buy tools *and use them* increase his Amway income (4) the only real way to increase his tool income is to successfully help people build their Amway income!
There is little incentive to sign up people who can't build a large network and great incentives to help people build large Amway networks - even if you just consider tool money.
lol. Already made money doing it, just like all the other evidence you chose to ignore it.
And in Amway news this week -
- Amway ranked one of Korea's favourite foreign companies
- Amway ranked one of China's top consumer brands
- Amway's Artistry wins "Favorite of the Year" consumer award in Ukraine in the Skin Care category
- Amway's Nutrilite Positrim wins "Favorite of the Year" consumer award in Ukraine in the Weightloss Supplement
- Triple Olympic Gold Medallist and World Record Holder, Australian Libby Tricket, becomes an Amway brand Ambassador (joining cricket legend Adam Gilchrist)
- Amway's Nutrilite ranked #1 in Nutraceuticals in India, with 15% (!!!) marketshare
- Amway brand ambassador Ronaldinho, playing with Nutrilite partnered AC Milan, the world's most successful football club, wins 2009 Golden Foot Award
Yeah, just impossible to market these products and make money
NewtonTrino
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Look if you don't get why it's bad to suck a bunch of money out of your downline with overpriced "motivational" materials then we simply have a difference of opinion. The FACT that's it's happening doesn't seem to be in dispute.
Hey, join amway and make money selling products. There is some money in tools but it's minimal and often doesn't cover expenses. Later on, hey BTW the higher pins make at least 30% of their income (more IMHO) from selling you motivational crap.
How is that not a bait and switch?
Look the same thing can be said about a lot of junk that most people should stay away from (other cult materials that are charged for like the scientology garbage).
Because you are stealing money from the little guy who can least afford it. The simple fact is that these "materials" are nothing more than cult indoctrination materials.
1- so what? People that get "plugged in" are the ones that are of concern to the network.
2- What percentage of VOLUME are these people that aren't buying tools? Anyway the people that don't buy them are irrelevant.
3- That's a lie. I would love to see you prove that.
4- Also a lie. People can buy tools and make no money whatsoever in amway.
Let me be more clear then. Come back when you've made more money than you would working at mcdonalds.
icerat
Philosopher
Of course it's in dispute. You claim they're sucking a "bunch of money" out of their downline with "overpriced motivational materials".
The reality is they are charging LESS than the generic competitors and I for one find them great value for money.
Again, what is immoral about selling products to help people develop their businesses?
Now you're completely changing the discussion. I've already stated I do not abide by dishonesty and misrepresentation.
Whether it's bait and switch is irrelevant (though it's not), because dishonesty and misrepresentation is not the issue we're discussing. We both agree that's immoral.
So what you're pretty much saying is that you are the universal arbitrator of what people should find of value?
On what basis do you make that claim?
The "simple fact" is you have no idea what the vast majority of material is about because you've never read it or listened to it. You're just faking it. You have no experience at all outside of your little corner of the Amway world and are just assuming stuff. You're a fake.
Let's pick just some of the material I'm looking at ordering for some folk in my group today -
Att leva till 100%, Jim Loehr & Tony Schwarz (The Power of Full Engagement)
My price through "overpriced" Network 21 - 66SEK
Online Price comparison - cheapest price - 166SEK
Network 21 60% Cheaper
Newton Trino says "cult indoctrination material".
Steve Reinemund, CEO PepsiCO says - "A very compelling, pragmatic, and universal model for how change occurs. The program described so clearly in The Power of Full Engagement transformed the way that I and many of my executives look at our lives, not only at work but at home."
Scott Miller, CEO, Hyatt Corporation says "The principles articulated in The Power of Full Engagement have been important to me personally and as the leader of a large company."
Online reviewers - 4.5 out of 5 stars Amazon average
So, who do I listen to, top business leaders like Miller and Reinemund, or Newton Trino, who has never read the book but once did some work for some amway diamonds he met through his uncle.
I'm also looking at the new John Maxwell Maximum Leadership 12 CD set. I can't find it available elsewhere so it may have been recorded at seminars for Network 21. I met Dr Maxwell and had a 5hr seminar with him for 35AUD some years back through.
Newton Trino says "cult indoctrination"
United Nations, NFL, most Fortune 500 companies, and West Point all invite him to speak to their leaders and Amazon.com names him to their 10th Anniversary hall of fame. (John Maxwell on Wikipedia)
No they're not. They're customers, customers are important.
That's a lie? How is he going to sell more tools? He needs more people to want to build Amway businesses. So to increase his tool volume, he needs more people building Amway businesses. What "proof" is needed? It's just plain logic.
Man, your logic box is really fried when it comes to this topic isn't it. How is going to sell more tools for building Amway to more people without having more people building Amway?
Done that too. Gee, back already.
And in Amway news today -
Amway Founders Rich & Helen DeVos named "Pillars of Medicine" by Michigan State University for their contributions to the health science community
Such disreputable people and a disreputable business ....
NewtonTrino
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The generic competitors are also ripoffs. Either way it's not the same product (see below).
Nothing. That's not what these materials do though. Have fun proving that one.
Then why are you defending and involved with a business that is based on it?
Then I ask again, why are you involved? Your involvement is implicit approval of the dishonestly and cult-like tactics that the AMO's have been using for decades.
Just my opinion. I'm just trying to warn the suckers away. I know it's pointless task in the end (new one born every minute etc.)
Sorry but I just talked to a DIAMOND on the phone the other day. I'm plugged in and I've listened to and read (including recently!!!) many of these so called "training materials". As someone that owns a successful business I think I'm qualified to determine the quality level of this materials more than someone like yourself.
So what's the point here? They do mix in "traditional" books and other types of materials. The vast majority of the materials are produced by the AMO's themselves though and most would not be sellable to anyone by amway people.
So, who do I listen to, top business leaders like Miller and Reinemund, or Newton Trino, who has never read the book but once did some work for some amway diamonds he met through his uncle.
I'm a successful business owner in my own right. I hesitate to say it but probably way more succesful than you are. In my NOT SO HUMBLE opinion as someone who has seen amway through my dad for the last 30 years, knows many people in the business, supplied software to many large amway businesses I don't just think it's a scam, I KNOW it's a scam.
You on the other hand have yet to make any significant money from amway. Maybe you should re-evaluate your position?
There are several motivational speakers that cross over. What's your point? This doesn't represent the vast majority of materials that amway people buy from their upline. In fact the amway orgs do anything they can to get mainstream recognition for exactly this kind of conversation and for recruiting purposes (look Kiyosaki loves MLM, join amway!!!! for example).
Yes they are.. too bad you guys don't have any significant amount of them (again proof if you continue to lie and spin about this).
It's a lie because he doesn't need to grow the amway portion to continue to make money from them on tools. In fact tools are more profitable for dollar so the upline has an incentive to sell tools more than amway product.
Amway Founders Rich & Helen DeVos named "Pillars of Medicine" by Michigan State University for their contributions to the health science community
Such disreputable people and a disreputable business ....
And this has relevance how?
Why don't you come back when you've made a decent amount of money from amway? Say $1M or so. When that happens you can tell us all how great it is.
You are already clearly on record as defending and agreeing with the tool scam. Why are you still bothering us with this stuff?
The company you are involved with recruits people under false pretenses, feed them a diet of "motivational" materials that brainwashes them into amway drones and then typically burns them out. When they come out the other side often times friendships, family relationships and business relationships have been shattered and need to be rebuilt. I've personally seen this happen to MANY people that I KNOW. You can continue to spin and say that the new organizations are better but we aren't chumps here.
Honestly you're making me want to actually start putting financial resources into the investigation of some of these AMO's, especially N21.
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