Bob Klase
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Strange. I was thinking more the Westboro Baptist of IBOs.
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Amway TV ad
- Thread starter Almo
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Strange. I was thinking more the Westboro Baptist of IBOs.
cyborg
deus ex machina
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Okay, here's another example of not answering a question and attempting to change the subject:
Hope that helps!
Sure does. LOL
NewtonTrino
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Tex reminds me of the etcorngod guy a bit 
NewtonTrino
Illuminator
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Actually my program helped distributors run their businesses which just happened to include tool scam money. I'm sure terrorists run windows or macos, does that mean apple supports terrorism?
"Just happened" to include the source (tool scam) of the vast majority of their profit, while taking money from their downline such that the Platinum level has to be reached for an IBO to break even? You KNOWINGLY were calculating how to split up a tool scam, and instead of becoming sickened and backing out part way through, gladly accepted your "30 pieces of silver" for your work. You are an "honorary" LCK (Lying Cowardly "Kingpin"). Your weak attempt at an analogy is so far off base it's not even in the ballpark. LOL
NewtonTrino
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At the time I was definitely a believer and I didn't consider it unethical. That experience of seeing the books for different lines of sponsorship is what caused me to change my mind about scamway.
Also making me sound complicit in their scam for selling them software is a bit silly don't you think? Why all the insults anyway?
Bottom line, I know about this scam because of that experience. I guess god thinks I need the penance of talking to you about it
Also making me sound complicit in their scam for selling them software is a bit silly don't you think? Why all the insults anyway?
Bottom line, I know about this scam because of that experience. I guess god thinks I need the penance of talking to you about it
NewtonTrino
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I don't want to stop anything. I want to educate people so that they can avoid this and similar scams. Teach people how to use critical thinking and the world gets made into a better place. In a world where people think critically and have solid logic skills something like the tools scam can't exist anyway.
I agree education is part of the process, but why would you NOT want to stop a scam? You could have a much bigger impact by being part of stopping a scam than only being on an obscure blog, especially with what you know about the tool scam. I'm all for teaching critical thinking, but the LCKs lie, and most IBOs can't figure this out until it is too late. Even you admitted you were okay with the Amway business until you found out about the tool scam, and that was only because you got an inside peek most do not have. It isn't so much critical thinking that's needed, it's telling the truth and exposing the lies.
For instance, which groups bought your software, which groups are the most abusive and why (not that I intend to let the less abusive ones off thehook)?
Also, ibofb, on his site, continues to ponder whether the "highest pin" or "current volume" calculation is being used, but I find BOTH repulsive.
P.S., have you noticed he hasn't posted since I've returned? It's because I know his "MO" and he can't handle the truth.
For instance, which groups bought your software, which groups are the most abusive and why (not that I intend to let the less abusive ones off thehook)?
Also, ibofb, on his site, continues to ponder whether the "highest pin" or "current volume" calculation is being used, but I find BOTH repulsive.
P.S., have you noticed he hasn't posted since I've returned? It's because I know his "MO" and he can't handle the truth.
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NewtonTrino
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Look, we both agree the tool scam is a bad thing. I just go a step further and say that amway itself isn't a good business opportunity. I very much believe in individual liberty so if people want to get involved with these types of things I don't have a problem with that. I just want to educate people enough that they have the sense to stay away.
As far as shutting it down I'm perfectly willing to testify to the FTC or whoever else will listen but the simple fact is that amway has a lot of influence in washington. This is a "soft" scam because most participants are willing. In fact what they do is no different than what a lot of churches do (which are also scams but that's another discussion).
The bottom line is that this kind of enforcement is very low on the list of priorities for the government so getting it shut down isn't realistic. It's not dangerous to people that have been educated about it anyway.
As far as shutting it down I'm perfectly willing to testify to the FTC or whoever else will listen but the simple fact is that amway has a lot of influence in washington. This is a "soft" scam because most participants are willing. In fact what they do is no different than what a lot of churches do (which are also scams but that's another discussion).
The bottom line is that this kind of enforcement is very low on the list of priorities for the government so getting it shut down isn't realistic. It's not dangerous to people that have been educated about it anyway.
anduin
Critical Thinker
Amway cult
I'm halfway through the thread but I wanted to leave some of my experiences with Amway. I had experienced similar selling methods with Avon when a cousin went through a direct selling phase (including Tupperware), she made a little money but soon grew disillusioned with it, but I remember thinking at the time about the inefficiency of the endeavour.
In 1997 I was working at a large call centre in Latin America, and one of the supervisors brought Amway into the working place. I can tell you that Amway must be making a lot of money from such places! This guy got all of his team into Amway, regardless of the many complaints from many in other teams, we suspected that one of the managers was actually the supervisor's Amway supplier because they were very close, so all Amway activity was not frowned upon, and even tacitly encouraged. The Amway bug spread like wildfire amongst the call-centre ranks; people who were naturally not too happy with their jobs. It soon became a cult-like situation where people were organising meetings after work, Saturday Amway picnics, Sunday Amway brunches, Amway parties, and all sorts of exclusive behaviour. The workplace was sharply divided between the Amway people and the unbelievers. It struck me that it was mostly the mediocre, less bright workers the ones who fell for Amway.
I realised that Amway was a cult when I saw a guy who printed a picture of a Ferrari and pinned it in his cubicle with the legend "In 2 years this will be mine". Needless to say, two years later he was still taking the bus to work...
Anyway, after the initial rush where lots of people were recruited, soon there was nobody left to recruit other than the unbelievers, so the ones holding the hot potato became desperate, broke rank and started hanging out with us to try to sell us their stuff. I got so many free samples that I got a good idea that we were dealing with mediocre product priced at ludicrously high mark-up rates to pay-off all of the intermediaries at work.
Obviously, the pyramid was unsustainable, and most people gave it up, with the exception of the core true believers, who had invested too much time and personal wealth to try to make the business work. The supervisor who started the whole thing did not seem to have made that much from all of the sellers, but we always suspected that the mastermind manager made a nice profit.
To me the reason why Amway only works for a small minority is pure economics. Firstly, there is a patent contradictory sales message: first they tell you that anyone can join in, but at the same time recognise that not everyone will make a lot of money, while at the same time they give out the message that the system is such that anyone can benefit, but those who lose money are simply not working hard enough. Secondly, it is clear that your chances of making money are higher if you are an early adopter, while the risks are higher if you are somewhere downstream. Thirdly, it relies on pestering and the annoyance factor to shift products, which is never a good sales strategy. Lastly, Amway is an inefficient distribution channel that relies on punters making all of the hard intermediary work, they are the ones assuming a large percentage of the costs and the risks. I would like to see actual figures, but it seemed to me like R&D and manufacturing would be low, as their products are in highly subjective areas such as beauty and nutritional products, where actual research takes the back seat to buzzwords, marketing, and dodgy scientific claims.
In my opinion, Amway is a semi-cult operating a semi-pyramid scheme that relies entirely on insane mark-ups and an obscene amount of intermediaries that make the entire endeavour laughable. We are moving towards an economy with fewer intermediaries thanks to the Internet, so anyone who buys stuff from a direct seller who is the 4th or 5th person down a distribution chain is an idiot who does not care about their own money.
I'm halfway through the thread but I wanted to leave some of my experiences with Amway. I had experienced similar selling methods with Avon when a cousin went through a direct selling phase (including Tupperware), she made a little money but soon grew disillusioned with it, but I remember thinking at the time about the inefficiency of the endeavour.
In 1997 I was working at a large call centre in Latin America, and one of the supervisors brought Amway into the working place. I can tell you that Amway must be making a lot of money from such places! This guy got all of his team into Amway, regardless of the many complaints from many in other teams, we suspected that one of the managers was actually the supervisor's Amway supplier because they were very close, so all Amway activity was not frowned upon, and even tacitly encouraged. The Amway bug spread like wildfire amongst the call-centre ranks; people who were naturally not too happy with their jobs. It soon became a cult-like situation where people were organising meetings after work, Saturday Amway picnics, Sunday Amway brunches, Amway parties, and all sorts of exclusive behaviour. The workplace was sharply divided between the Amway people and the unbelievers. It struck me that it was mostly the mediocre, less bright workers the ones who fell for Amway.
I realised that Amway was a cult when I saw a guy who printed a picture of a Ferrari and pinned it in his cubicle with the legend "In 2 years this will be mine". Needless to say, two years later he was still taking the bus to work...
Anyway, after the initial rush where lots of people were recruited, soon there was nobody left to recruit other than the unbelievers, so the ones holding the hot potato became desperate, broke rank and started hanging out with us to try to sell us their stuff. I got so many free samples that I got a good idea that we were dealing with mediocre product priced at ludicrously high mark-up rates to pay-off all of the intermediaries at work.
Obviously, the pyramid was unsustainable, and most people gave it up, with the exception of the core true believers, who had invested too much time and personal wealth to try to make the business work. The supervisor who started the whole thing did not seem to have made that much from all of the sellers, but we always suspected that the mastermind manager made a nice profit.
To me the reason why Amway only works for a small minority is pure economics. Firstly, there is a patent contradictory sales message: first they tell you that anyone can join in, but at the same time recognise that not everyone will make a lot of money, while at the same time they give out the message that the system is such that anyone can benefit, but those who lose money are simply not working hard enough. Secondly, it is clear that your chances of making money are higher if you are an early adopter, while the risks are higher if you are somewhere downstream. Thirdly, it relies on pestering and the annoyance factor to shift products, which is never a good sales strategy. Lastly, Amway is an inefficient distribution channel that relies on punters making all of the hard intermediary work, they are the ones assuming a large percentage of the costs and the risks. I would like to see actual figures, but it seemed to me like R&D and manufacturing would be low, as their products are in highly subjective areas such as beauty and nutritional products, where actual research takes the back seat to buzzwords, marketing, and dodgy scientific claims.
In my opinion, Amway is a semi-cult operating a semi-pyramid scheme that relies entirely on insane mark-ups and an obscene amount of intermediaries that make the entire endeavour laughable. We are moving towards an economy with fewer intermediaries thanks to the Internet, so anyone who buys stuff from a direct seller who is the 4th or 5th person down a distribution chain is an idiot who does not care about their own money.
cyborg
deus ex machina
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Not reading for comprehension? What is the reading for then?
I agree it isn't dangerous to those who have been educated, the key is educating them. From what I've seen, we're making headway with english speaking folks in the U.S., thanks largely to the internet, but the new face of Amway in the U.S. is non-english folks getting scammed. One only has to look at the new qualifying IBOs to see this.
I'm halfway through the thread but I wanted to leave some of my experiences with Amway. >>>> Thanks.
I had experienced similar selling methods with Avon when a cousin went through a direct selling phase (including Tupperware), she made a little money but soon grew disillusioned with it, but I remember thinking at the time about the inefficiency of the endeavour. >>>> You should try traditional business to find more inefficiency.
In 1997 I was working at a large call centre in Latin America, and one of the supervisors brought Amway into the working place. >>>> That's how it works.
I can tell you that Amway must be making a lot of money from such places! >>>> This means IBOs are making a lot of money as well, unless it is being sucked upline via the tool scam.
This guy got all of his team into Amway, regardless of the many complaints from many in other teams, we suspected that one of the managers was actually the supervisor's Amway supplier because they were very close, so all Amway activity was not frowned upon, and even tacitly encouraged. >>>> If everyone is doing their job, there should be nothing to complain about.
The Amway bug spread like wildfire amongst the call-centre ranks; people who were naturally not too happy with their jobs. >>>> That's the idea, and that should be considered a good thing.
It soon became a cult-like situation where people were organising meetings after work, Saturday Amway picnics, Sunday Amway brunches, Amway parties, and all sorts of exclusive behaviour. >>>> Did you want to be invited to these activities? Are YOU responsible for how people spend their time away from their job?
The workplace was sharply divided between the Amway people and the unbelievers. >>>> It shouldn't be any more sharply divided than the folks who believed in God and those who didn't.
It struck me that it was mostly the mediocre, less bright workers the ones who fell for Amway. >>>> I'm sure they felt the same way about you.
I realised that Amway was a cult when I saw a guy who printed a picture of a Ferrari and pinned it in his cubicle with the legend "In 2 years this will be mine". >>>> Unfortunately, this is where the tool scam raises it's ugly head, and is the only reasonable way a Ferrari is possible.
Needless to say, two years later he was still taking the bus to work... >>>> Agreed.
Anyway, after the initial rush where lots of people were recruited, soon there was nobody left to recruit other than the unbelievers, so the ones holding the hot potato became desperate, broke rank and started hanging out with us to try to sell us their stuff. >>>> How is this "breaking rank" any more than when they were approached, with the exception they were putting in more effort to change your mind?
I got so many free samples that I got a good idea that we were dealing with mediocre product priced at ludicrously high mark-up rates to pay-off all of the intermediaries at work. >>>> How would getting free samples lead to this conclusion?
Obviously, the pyramid was unsustainable, and most people gave it up, with the exception of the core true believers, who had invested too much time and personal wealth to try to make the business work. >>>> The idea is to expand beyond your call center.
The supervisor who started the whole thing did not seem to have made that much from all of the sellers, but we always suspected that the mastermind manager made a nice profit. >>>> No evidence, just suspicion?
To me the reason why Amway only works for a small minority is pure economics. >>>> If you are talking a snapshot in time, you're right. However, as you described above, the idea is for a person to expand their business OVER TIME.
Firstly, there is a patent contradictory sales message: first they tell you that anyone can join in, but at the same time recognise that not everyone will make a lot of money, while at the same time they give out the message that the system is such that anyone can benefit, but those who lose money are simply not working hard enough. >>>> The real contradiction is they are LYING about where the profit comes from.
Secondly, it is clear that your chances of making money are higher if you are an early adopter, while the risks are higher if you are somewhere downstream. >>>> Again, if you think outside your workplace, and understand that OVER TIME your business grows, this is NOT a major issue.
Thirdly, it relies on pestering and the annoyance factor to shift products, which is never a good sales strategy. >>>> Really? I haven't "pestered" any of my customers (non-IBOs), and they continue to buy. Nor do I "pester" anyone to become an IBO, they would be very unproductive.
Lastly, Amway is an inefficient distribution channel that relies on punters making all of the hard intermediary work, they are the ones assuming a large percentage of the costs and the risks. >>>> See above regarding inefficency compared to a traditional business. Remember, the ones at a high level did the same work to get to where they are when they joined. The real problem is the tool scam, which does result in high costs/risks.
I would like to see actual figures, but it seemed to me like R&D and manufacturing would be low, as their products are in highly subjective areas such as beauty and nutritional products, where actual research takes the back seat to buzzwords, marketing, and dodgy scientific claims. >>>> Amway has hundreds of scientists/patents, I think this point is false.
In my opinion, Amway is a semi-cult operating a semi-pyramid scheme that relies entirely on insane mark-ups and an obscene amount of intermediaries that make the entire endeavour laughable. We are moving towards an economy with fewer intermediaries thanks to the Internet, so anyone who buys stuff from a direct seller who is the 4th or 5th person down a distribution chain is an idiot who does not care about their own money.
I had experienced similar selling methods with Avon when a cousin went through a direct selling phase (including Tupperware), she made a little money but soon grew disillusioned with it, but I remember thinking at the time about the inefficiency of the endeavour. >>>> You should try traditional business to find more inefficiency.
In 1997 I was working at a large call centre in Latin America, and one of the supervisors brought Amway into the working place. >>>> That's how it works.
I can tell you that Amway must be making a lot of money from such places! >>>> This means IBOs are making a lot of money as well, unless it is being sucked upline via the tool scam.
This guy got all of his team into Amway, regardless of the many complaints from many in other teams, we suspected that one of the managers was actually the supervisor's Amway supplier because they were very close, so all Amway activity was not frowned upon, and even tacitly encouraged. >>>> If everyone is doing their job, there should be nothing to complain about.
The Amway bug spread like wildfire amongst the call-centre ranks; people who were naturally not too happy with their jobs. >>>> That's the idea, and that should be considered a good thing.
It soon became a cult-like situation where people were organising meetings after work, Saturday Amway picnics, Sunday Amway brunches, Amway parties, and all sorts of exclusive behaviour. >>>> Did you want to be invited to these activities? Are YOU responsible for how people spend their time away from their job?
The workplace was sharply divided between the Amway people and the unbelievers. >>>> It shouldn't be any more sharply divided than the folks who believed in God and those who didn't.
It struck me that it was mostly the mediocre, less bright workers the ones who fell for Amway. >>>> I'm sure they felt the same way about you.
I realised that Amway was a cult when I saw a guy who printed a picture of a Ferrari and pinned it in his cubicle with the legend "In 2 years this will be mine". >>>> Unfortunately, this is where the tool scam raises it's ugly head, and is the only reasonable way a Ferrari is possible.
Needless to say, two years later he was still taking the bus to work... >>>> Agreed.
Anyway, after the initial rush where lots of people were recruited, soon there was nobody left to recruit other than the unbelievers, so the ones holding the hot potato became desperate, broke rank and started hanging out with us to try to sell us their stuff. >>>> How is this "breaking rank" any more than when they were approached, with the exception they were putting in more effort to change your mind?
I got so many free samples that I got a good idea that we were dealing with mediocre product priced at ludicrously high mark-up rates to pay-off all of the intermediaries at work. >>>> How would getting free samples lead to this conclusion?
Obviously, the pyramid was unsustainable, and most people gave it up, with the exception of the core true believers, who had invested too much time and personal wealth to try to make the business work. >>>> The idea is to expand beyond your call center.
The supervisor who started the whole thing did not seem to have made that much from all of the sellers, but we always suspected that the mastermind manager made a nice profit. >>>> No evidence, just suspicion?
To me the reason why Amway only works for a small minority is pure economics. >>>> If you are talking a snapshot in time, you're right. However, as you described above, the idea is for a person to expand their business OVER TIME.
Firstly, there is a patent contradictory sales message: first they tell you that anyone can join in, but at the same time recognise that not everyone will make a lot of money, while at the same time they give out the message that the system is such that anyone can benefit, but those who lose money are simply not working hard enough. >>>> The real contradiction is they are LYING about where the profit comes from.
Secondly, it is clear that your chances of making money are higher if you are an early adopter, while the risks are higher if you are somewhere downstream. >>>> Again, if you think outside your workplace, and understand that OVER TIME your business grows, this is NOT a major issue.
Thirdly, it relies on pestering and the annoyance factor to shift products, which is never a good sales strategy. >>>> Really? I haven't "pestered" any of my customers (non-IBOs), and they continue to buy. Nor do I "pester" anyone to become an IBO, they would be very unproductive.
Lastly, Amway is an inefficient distribution channel that relies on punters making all of the hard intermediary work, they are the ones assuming a large percentage of the costs and the risks. >>>> See above regarding inefficency compared to a traditional business. Remember, the ones at a high level did the same work to get to where they are when they joined. The real problem is the tool scam, which does result in high costs/risks.
I would like to see actual figures, but it seemed to me like R&D and manufacturing would be low, as their products are in highly subjective areas such as beauty and nutritional products, where actual research takes the back seat to buzzwords, marketing, and dodgy scientific claims. >>>> Amway has hundreds of scientists/patents, I think this point is false.
In my opinion, Amway is a semi-cult operating a semi-pyramid scheme that relies entirely on insane mark-ups and an obscene amount of intermediaries that make the entire endeavour laughable. We are moving towards an economy with fewer intermediaries thanks to the Internet, so anyone who buys stuff from a direct seller who is the 4th or 5th person down a distribution chain is an idiot who does not care about their own money.
I think you read so you can spew your false ideas, with no desire to take in new information and make use of it. You call this being "skeptical", I call it being closed-minded.
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Almo
Masterblazer
Ditto.
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