Amway TV ad

[Rasmus]

A profitable business isn't successful? I would think that would be enough.

I wouldn't. It only tells me that you have money left over at the end of the month. It doesn't tell me if you would have more money left over if you were vending burgers. And that's just one of the things it doesn't tell me.

 

[Bob Klase]

No, it's not a business - but you have a successful investment.

If my profit over that 20 years averaged 1% per year 99% of all other banks averaged 8% per year over that 20 years, would mine still count as successful?

If my profit was 50% less than inflation over that 20 years would it still count as successful?

How do you define 'successful'. Most people would consider factors other than ending with more $ than you started with in determining 'success'.

 

[icerat]

I wouldn't. It only tells me that you have money left over at the end of the month. It doesn't tell me if you would have more money left over if you were vending burgers. And that's just one of the things it doesn't tell me.

Sorry, but I disagree. It tells you it's a successful business, assuming your goal was profit of course.

I agree it doesn't tell you whether it was successful compared to the burger business, and that really depends on what your definition of success is and what your goals were.

I doubt there's any burger businesses that still generates profit for their founders on as little work as I put in to that Amway business.

Personally I find the whole discussion pretty silly. Even a modicum of intelligence and logic applied to knowledge of the business model can show it's possible to make money, and there's a multitude of examples of people who have done that available on http://www.amwaywiki.com in the magazine archives.

 

[icerat]

If my profit over that 20 years averaged 1% per year 99% of all other banks averaged 8% per year over that 20 years, would mine still count as successful?

Yup, just not as successful as if you had put it in another bank

If my profit was 50% less than inflation over that 20 years would it still count as successful?

No, because then you lost money, you didn't make money.

You do realise that Amway income is inherently indexed to inflation, don't you?

How do you define 'successful'. Most people would consider factors other than ending with more $ than you started with in determining 'success'.

Funny. People spend pages and pages demanding profit and loss statements to "prove" it's possible to make money with an Amway business , and now you keep along and say it wouldn't say anything.

Now you know why people don't bother.

 

[Bob Klase]

How do you define 'successful'. Most people would consider factors other than ending with more $ than you started with in determining 'success'.

Funny. People spend pages and pages demanding profit and loss statements to "prove" it's possible to make money with an Amway business , and now you keep along and say it wouldn't say anything.

Where did I say it wouldn't mean anything? I said the mere fact that you end with more dollars than you started with doesn't define success. If your profit and loss statement shows that you ended with $1 more than you started with, you would claim that as a profit and a successful business unless you consider other factors. And based on the response you just gave when I said that other factors had to be considered, you don't consider them.

Now you know why people don't bother.

Yes, we do know why you won't bother.

 

[NewtonTrino]

I did a lot less than $24,000 worth of hours.

How many hours? You've given us very little info to work with here. What was your total hours, total cost and total income for the period you were active?

I can give you number out the wazoo for my business... cause it's a real business

 

[NewtonTrino]

Personally I find the whole discussion pretty silly. Even a modicum of intelligence and logic applied to knowledge of the business model can show it's possible to make money, and there's a multitude of examples of people who have done that available on http://www.amwaywiki.com in the magazine archives.

We know some people make money. I'm trying to figure out the value proposition.

 

[icerat]

How many hours? You've given us very little info to work with here. What was your total hours, total cost and total income for the period you were active?

I can give you number out the wazoo for my business... cause it's a real business

Now project yourself 10 years, (at least) 4 other serious ventures, 8 house moves, a divorce, and 3 countries into the future.

Now tell me your numbers.

 

[icerat]

We know some people make money. I'm trying to figure out the value proposition.

Fine. Do some math. Qualify Diamond for the first time anytime in the next 5 years in Europe, you'll get a one-off bonus of 200,000€ on top of all other income. Plenty of people have qualified Diamond in 5 years or less, so it's possible. Do nothing else, spend 40hrs/wk on Amway and spend all the income earned on the way on expenses building Amway (which would be extremely difficult)

That'll be a 40,000€/yr average income, plus at least one free all expenses paid trip a year. That's nearly twice the average UK income, and you could probably stop working then, or maybe drop to 5-10hrs/wk and earn at least 80,000€/yr.

 

[oggiesnr]

Fine. Do some math. Qualify Diamond for the first time anytime in the next 5 years in Europe, you'll get a one-off bonus of 200,000€ on top of all other income. Plenty of people have qualified Diamond in 5 years or less, so it's possible. Do nothing else, spend 40hrs/wk on Amway and spend all the income earned on the way on expenses building Amway (which would be extremely difficult)

That'll be a 40,000€/yr average income, plus at least one free all expenses paid trip a year. That's nearly twice the average UK income, an you could probably stop working then, or maybe drop to 5-10hrs/wk and earn at least 80,000€/yr.

There is ONE diamond in the UK, please supply sources for these "facts".

You appear to be saying that to do this you spend up to five years working for nothing for a forty hour week (all income re-invested in Amway). If I had enough money to work for no income them would I need Amway?

Steve

 

[icerat]

There is ONE diamond in the UK, please supply sources for these "facts".

There used to be more - extenuating circumstances. Anyway, I said Europe, not just the UK. What "facts" do you want sourcing for? I personally know quite a few people who have qualified diamond (and higher) in less than 5 years.

You appear to be saying that to do this you spend up to five years working for nothing for a forty hour week (all income re-invested in Amway).

I was being absurd. In reality to do that it's probably 20-30hrs/week, you'd be making some money after expenses within the first few months, and after 6-12 months you'd be profiting at least 1,500€/mth, increasing every month.

If I had enough money to work for no income them would I need Amway?

Depends if the money was renewing or running out. Plenty of people start businesses and work fulltime, living off savings or borrowings or a combination.

Not the recommended path for Amway, but it's clear that if you successfully did that, it would be financially worth it.

 

[NewtonTrino]

Honestly the money that this business generates seems low for the YEARS of effort. Why would I go into Amway and spend 5 years to make a measly amount per year. There are plenty of other types of businesses where you could have made millions in profit after 5 years. I'm simply not impressed by the cited income figures. If you have the kinds of skills that you need to hit diamond in 5 years flat (which is possible but unusual) then there are plenty of other things you could do that would be more rewarding. And that aren't part of a brainwashing cult with a bad reputation that's inherently unethical.

 

[Skeptic]

Fine. Do some math. Qualify Diamond for the first time anytime in the next 5 years in Europe, you'll get a one-off bonus of 200,000€ on top of all other income.

Chances of becoming a diamond in Amway are, roughly, 1 in 10,000 or so. If you work in McDonald's and do so well you are in the top 0.01% of McDonald's earners, you will get a LOT more than a one-time 200,000 Euro bonus. You'd be making a seven-figure salary.

Advantage: McDonald's.

And there are thousands of business opportunities better than McDonald's.

 

[NewtonTrino]

Yes but anyone can go diamond if they do the work! All you have to do is trust me and make sure you listen to my CD's and come to my meetings. All for a fee of course, you'll make it back once you hit the bigtime!

 

[Rasmus]

That'll be a 40,000€/yr average income, plus at least one free all expenses paid trip a year. That's nearly twice the average UK income, and you could probably stop working then, or maybe drop to 5-10hrs/wk and earn at least 80,000€/yr.

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=334
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=285

According to these, the average household income is at nearly 30K GBP or 35K €, a full time employee makes an average of 25K GBP or 30K €.

Where do your numbers come from?

 

[NewtonTrino]

Honestly I think Amway is generally sold on stronger terms than this. It's not just make a nice living, it's often portrayed as a get wealthy type of business. I don't see where that comes from given the numbers we've seen. Unless of course you count the insane tools profits that are possible in SOME groups.

 

[Porkchopjim]

Wait, is there a shill for “Big Pharma” here?

If pills derived from squeezed fruit and lawn clippings are, as argued, better than the $16 for 600 pills 'generic synthetic' vitamins...

...and given that Amway has been portrayed as the champion of the underdog...

...and given a certain proponent of Amway is also a big fan of socialized medicine (and family care)...

...wouldn't someone who isn't a snake oil salesman be complaining that the cost of those magic pills are outlandish and: Amway and it's 'business owners' are profiting – nicely on both counts according to the self-appointed spokesman - off the backs of the unhealthy masses? And, why wouldn't the government provide these valuable magic pills to us?

If it weren't for cult thinking, heads would explode. But when you've grown up in it and spent countless hours – probably at least 10,000 by now – desperately trying to defend it...certain inconsistencies can be overlooked for the greater gain.

We know North America has been flat for the last 4-5-6 years...so any newly anointed “Diamonds” in that market are taking the place of other “Diamonds” who are no longer at that qualification. But that doesn't matter – it's the 'fact' that there are new ones that PROVES the business works!

Amway unashamedly puts 'wealthy business owners' enjoying 'financial freedom on the beach' throughout their magazines knowing full well that whatever lifestyle is portrayed is fueled by incredible tool profits sold to their own followers. Amway is sold VERY much stronger than the benign little side business that some try to claim it is.

Dreams and tools are sold to millions covered nicely through a product based pyramid scheme.

 

[icerat]

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=334
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=285

According to these, the average household income is at nearly 30K GBP or 35K €, a full time employee makes an average of 25K GBP or 30K €.

Where do your numbers come from?

I just looked up average income UK - not household mind you.

It doesn't really matter, take your figures if you like - it's more than the average UK household income.

 

[NewtonTrino]

Why would you compare what is supposed to be a good business opportunity to average income?

Shouldn't it be entrepreneurs or salespeople that you are looking at? Someone who is a consistently good sales person would make a lot more than "average". Small business owners are amongst the wealthiest portion of society. I would love to see how a lot of dry cleaners, corner stores, restaurants etc. owners compare in income to the average succesful amway salesman.

 

[icerat]

Honestly the money that this business generates seems low for the YEARS of effort. Why would I go into Amway and spend 5 years to make a measly amount per year. There are plenty of other types of businesses where you could have made millions in profit after 5 years.

Great! Show me one.

Chances of becoming a diamond in Amway are, roughly, 1 in 10,000 or so.

If you believe your odds of success as based on chance, then I'd suggest your chances of becoming a diamond are nil.

If you work in McDonald's and do so well you are in the top 0.01% of McDonald's earners, you will get a LOT more than a one-time 200,000 Euro bonus. You'd be making a seven-figure salary.

Got any stats to back that up? Your stating that 1 in 10,000 McDonald's employees earns more than a million bucks a year?

Advantage: McDonald's.

Nope, because if you're in the top 0.01% of Amway Earners, you'd be making more than that.

And there are thousands of business opportunities better than McDonald's.

Great. What are they? I'm always interested to learn more. Just today I met a couple who started their business in Australia, then moved to South Africa where they built to Emerald, then moved back to Australia for their son to go to Uni, and now live in the UK.

Every month they earn thousands from their south african and australian businesses. They can live whereever they want. They have no jobs, they don't need them.

I'm always willing to learn about business opportunities that can do better. Please share.

Honestly I think Amway is generally sold on stronger terms than this.

You can "think" whatever you like. Despite your instance on omniscience, you have no idea how the majority of people "sell" Amway. Do some "oversell"? Absolutely. Doesn't mean everyone does.

It's not just make a nice living, it's often portrayed as a get wealthy type of business. I don't see where that comes from given the numbers we've seen.

We obviously move in different circles. In my world a yearly income of US$1.5million is "wealthy". That's the average for Founders EDC and above in the US. I've also noticed people seem to ignore all the free Amway trips often shown in videos. Even measily Founders Platinums get them NT, they don't have to pay for them out of their Amway income.

Unless of course you count the insane tools profits that are possible in SOME groups.

Every single time ... and I've done this a lot ... every single time I've challenged a "critic" to name an Amway diamond or above who is displaying a lifestyle that couldn't be achieved on their Amway income alone ... every single time the "critic" has named someone who is way past diamond level in achievement, and has often achieved that level and higher in multiple countries.