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Amway TV ad

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I did lie. I made up the price for the Costco vitamins. When I actually did waste my time looking all that up, naturally I found that the Kirkland line was substantially cheaper - and met quality control standards the Amway can't or doesn't choose to - but that part's not made up.

Really? And which standard is that? Nutrilite does over 15,000 quality control tests a month, it was the first brand certified by the NSF and manufactures to FDA GMP standards - Kirkland advertises itself as certified by USP, which is lower standards than FDA GMP.

...on the other hand you dedicate an entire page on your site of deception trying to justify the excessive price of Nutrilite products because 'natural' vitamin C is better than artificial vitamin C (any proof for that? Right, dumb question)...and alfalfa is expensive. Sure is! We pay about $4.00 a bail delivered! That MORE than justifies $80 vitamins.

Dishonesty or an inability to read? The article you are referencing suggests that fruit and vegetables is a better source of Vitamin C than factory synthesised Vitamin C (and specifically acerola cherries). And there's A LOT of evidence to support that.

So, seems you like to make excuses and continue to spin in whichever direction your unethical position takes you...and ignore why both the FTC and Amway have explicit rules requiring sales to non-IBOs.

The FTC has no explict rules requiring sales to non-IBOs, that's a complete lie (dishonesty - again!). Amway does in some countries, and not in other countries, and it even varies depending on your level - but that's a different issue altogether. IMO, and obviously Amway's, it's much more sensible to have customers than not, for a variety of reasons.

It's hard to hang around Amway and the likes of you without SOME of that 'valuable training' rubbing off on us.

That appears to be an outright admission you're dishonest.

So while Tex tries to slay the tool-dragon by getting kicked off every forum on the internet (one at a time, of course), I am comfortable that you have been equally effective in changing anyone's mind about Amway.

My "inbox" says otherwise.
 
UK earnings figures for 2008 -

AMWAY EARNINGS DISCLOSURE STATEMENT

Date of Issue: 21 July 2008

Amway is committed to providing earnings disclosure information to actual and prospective ABOs to help them to assess the business opportunity.

The data set out below covers the period October 2007 to end June 2008 inclusive (“the Specified Period”) and has been independently verified to ensure accuracy. All figures are based on ABOs in the UK and Republic of Ireland registered with Amway during the Specified Period.

All monetary values are in Pounds Sterling unless otherwise denoted. All earnings in Euro values were converted to Pounds Sterling using the exchange rate applicable for the month the data was extracted.

During the period 1 May 2007 to 21 July 2008 there has been a moratorium on the registration of new ABOs which is likely to have affected earnings levels. The moratorium was lifted on 21 July 2008 (although certain restrictions remain in place) and updated earnings data will be published at an appropriate time and in any event no later than 1 January 2009.

RETAIL CONSULTANTS

A - Total number of Retail Consultants registered during the period = 5,582

This is the number of Retail Consultants registered with Amway as at 12 June 2008.

B - Total number of Retail Consultants earning a Customer Volume Rebate (“CVR”) = 2,384

This is the number of Retail Consultants in Category A who earned a CVR at least once
during the Specified Period.

C - Average monthly CVR for Retail Consultants earning a CVR = £47 / €70.50
This is the total amount of CVR paid to Retail Consultants during the Specified Period
divided by the number of payments.

D - Highest total CVR earned by a Retail Consultant = £732 / €1,098
This is highest, individual, monthly CVR payment made to a Retail Consultant in the
Specified Period.

E - Lowest total CVR earned by a Retail Consultant = £21 / €31.50
This is lowest, individual, monthly CVR payment made to a Retail Consultant in the
Specified Period
.
CERTIFIED RETAIL CONSULTANTS

F - Total number of Certified Retail Consultants registered during the Specified Period = 3,888
This is the number of Certified Retail Consultants registered with Amway as
at 12 June 2008.

G - Total number of Certified Retail Consultants earning a CVR or bonus income = 2,053
This is the number of Certified Retail Consultants in Category F who earned a CVR
or bonus payment at least once during the Specified Period.

H - Average income of Certified Retail Consultants earning a CVR or bonus = £92 / €138
This is the average monthly income of all registered Certified Retail Consultants during
the Specified Period.

I - Highest total earnings by a Certified Retail Consultant = £2,683 / €4,024.50
This is highest, individual, monthly earnings of any Certified Retail Consultant during
the Specified Period.

J - Lowest total earnings by a Certified Retail Consultant = £18 / €27
This is lowest, individual, monthly earnings of any Certified Retail Consultant during
the Specified Period.

BUSINESS CONSULTANTS
K - Total number of Business Consultants during the Specified Period = 98
This is the number of Business Consultants registered with Amway as
at 12 June 2008.

L - Average income of Business Consultants during the Specified Period = £830 / €1,245
This is the average monthly income of Business Consultants registered with
Amway.

M - Total number of new Business Consultants qualifying as such during the Specified Period

This figure will be published when available.

N Minimum income levels for qualification at Platinum, Emerald and Diamond Level

Platinum £7,000 €10,500

Emerald £15,000 €22,500

Diamond £50,000 €75,000

O - Number of Business Consultants qualified at Platinum, Emerald and Diamond Level during the Period

Platinum 90

Emerald 7

Diamond 1

Amway (UK) Limited, St Anne’s House, Caldecotte Lake Drive,
Caldecotte Business Park, Caldecotte, Milton Keynes MK7 8JU
Telephone: +44 (0)1908 629400 Fax: +44 (0)1908 629402
SKU 232484B

Anyone care to comment or do the figures say it all.

Steve
 
UK earnings figures for 2008 -

Anyone care to comment or do the figures say it all.

Steve

The figures say very little alas. They are a "first edition" after the conclusion of the BERR vs Amway case. For virtually all of the period under consideration Amway had a moratorium on sponsoring, they kicked out a bunch of people, and virtually all training was shutdown (all at the instigation of Amway and/or ABOs).

One thing it does tell you is that even when Amway has no sponsoring for more than a year, there's still quite a few people making money. So much for it being a pyramid.

The UK setup is different from anywhere else and somewhat experimental. I personally like some of the things they've done. It's going to be very interesting to see what the stats "say" as Amway UK gets moving again.
 
I want to see the spin on these numbers. They're about as impressive as the figures stated in the Amway ad mentioned in the OP.

ETA: Icerat got in before I clicked submit.
 
The numbers are rather pathetic.

I'll start believing people in Amway make money when we get someone on here who is doing it and actually making money.

BTW I scoff at many of the points in Icerats last reply to me. Talk about spin. Come back when you have some proof that anyone in Amway makes a profit that isn't based on selling tools.
 
The numbers are rather pathetic.

I'll start believing people in Amway make money when we get someone on here who is doing it and actually making money.

BTW I scoff at many of the points in Icerats last reply to me. Talk about spin. Come back when you have some proof that anyone in Amway makes a profit that isn't based on selling tools.

Which just emphasised my point. *I* made a proft without no tool income. I've already said that, you simply reject it as untrue. If I posted numbers from a tax return, why would you believe them any more than any other numbers I post? In one similar conversation I had with a critic, it ended up to the point where they wanted the names and phone numbers of every person in my group so they could confirm details, and without that they wouldn't believe me.

So I know it would make no difference to your belief, you have them as a matter of faith, and faith rarely changes in the face of reality.
 
Ahhh – the feigned indignation of Icerat/Insider/IBOFightback!!!!


Kirkland advertises itself as certified by USP, which is lower standards than FDA GMP.

USP includes GMP, so it can hardly be a 'lower' standard. Doesn't work the other way around, but nice try!

Dishonesty or an inability to read? The article you are referencing suggests that fruit and vegetables is a better source of Vitamin C than factory synthesised Vitamin C (and specifically acerola cherries). And there's A LOT of evidence to support that.

“Suggests” being a key word in the murky world of overpriced vitamins, isn't it?

There's no doubt that fruits and veggies are better than a pill. Just hard to justify that the chemical processing of those fruit/veggie vitamins into pills is somehow superior to a pure chemical synthesized one – when we're talking about the exact same compound. Homeopathy, maybe?



The FTC has no explict rules requiring sales to non-IBOs, that's a complete lie (dishonesty - again!). Amway does in some countries...

The FTC cites sales to non-IBOs in FTC vs. Amway. Must just be bad wording on their part? With no sales outside the pyramid, the newest members provide the profit for the older members. Amway does have explicit requirements for sales to non-IBOs in the USA.



My "inbox" says otherwise.

No doubt there is a large market for Amway distributors looking for someone other than their upline cult leadership to tell them that they made a wise decision in hyper-consuming Amway products as a means to care-free financial security!


You see, lads, Insider has given up on hanging out on forums where his ‘arguments’ have been discredited. He has normally sequesters himself to his cult retention website where it’s “Amway Rules/The Critics Are Stupid” 24/7. But, since it’s sworn duty to defend the cult (when he’s not busy hosting websites for brothels), he has google alerts for any discussion of Amway…and in true cult form goes screaming over there to try to prove it’s not a cult. The odds are good that folks there, while they may have a bad impression of Amway, do not know the money-grubbing cult that the ‘business opportunity’ has morphed into. He counts on the probability that his well rehearsed shtick, and it’s well rehearsed, passes as fact.

Unfortunately, he found his way here and looked like he was not terribly successful, but then he goes and tosses out the ‘critics are liars’ desperate defense.

Here are the facts about his ‘Nutrilite’ pricing, which he crows about being “Number one” – based on dollar sales and not volume. Dollar sales almost exclusively to Amway distributors themselves trying desperately to keep their ‘business volume’ up by purchasing their own products.

His ‘powerhouse’ product that he has implied is responsible for being ‘Number One’ is the cheapest one they sell. It’s not cheap, though:

Nutrilite Daily: as he says, $11.30 retail for 90 pills.
Kirkland (Costco) – my example: $15.99 for 600 pills.His vitamin is 370% more expensive than Kirkland. Amway wins!

OK – while his cheapest vitamin is the one that has the best chance of being sold to a retail customer, if an Amway distributor buys if for himself, he only pays in the $7-$8 range. I will not give out the exact price.

Anyway, at Amway distributor’s price, it’s only 206% more expensive than Kirkland.

All right, not fair. Kirkland is an exemplar affordable and high quality vitamin, but I doubt it has significant market share. Let’s look at Centrum!

Centrum: $17.49 for 250 pills. Walgreens online price.
At full retail, Nutrilite Daily is 79% more expensive. At distributor price, it’s only 17% more expensive.

You have to be well on your way up the chain to get your 17% back.

Insider/Icerat knows that. He was hoping no one else here did. In true fraud fashion, sometimes that doesn’t always work.
 
Actually Icerat if you posted some detail profit information I would take it at face value if it looked real. All you've said is that you had the business up to several thousand a month in profit at one point. What was your yearly PROFIT for your best year? What were your expenses? How much in bonuses vs retail sales? etc. I have yet to see ANYONE post anything with detail. I posted rough detail for my business in the thread a few pages back and I would be willing to talk about it in more detail if it was relevant.
 
USP includes GMP, so it can hardly be a 'lower' standard. Doesn't work the other way around, but nice try!

Well that's new. USP is an older standard and I didn't realise they now "included" GMP. There doesn't seem to be anything more than GMP though.

“Suggests” being a key word in the murky world of overpriced vitamins, isn't it?

I take it you believe that all that really matters in an orange is the ascorbic acid and macronutrients?

There's no doubt that fruits and veggies are better than a pill. Just hard to justify that the chemical processing of those fruit/veggie vitamins into pills is somehow superior to a pure chemical synthesized one – when we're talking about the exact same compound. Homeopathy, maybe?

Nutrilite products are not "chemically processed" - and we are not talking about "the exact same compound". Plants contain many, many, many more compounds than are found in isolated synthetics. You apparently haven't read the article you mentioned - The Nutrilite Difference

The FTC cites sales to non-IBOs in FTC vs. Amway. Must just be bad wording on their part?

No, just bad comprehension on your part. Significant sales to non-IBOs are sufficient evidence something is not a pyramid. No sales to non-IBOs is not evidence something is a pyramid.

Nutrilite Daily: as he says, $11.30 retail for 90 pills.
Kirkland (Costco) – my example: $15.99 for 600 pills.His vitamin is 370% more expensive than Kirkland. Amway wins!

Oh, my mistake ... I actually BELIEVED YOU when I used your pricing. Silly me, I should have known better.

So, how's the nutrient content compare between Kirkland and Nutrilite? What's the phytonutrient content like in the Kirkland product? How many plant concentrates?

If price is all that matters to you, not nutritional content and health benefits, by all means save a few bucks and go for Kirkland.

Centrum: $17.49 for 250 pills. Walgreens online price.
At full retail, Nutrilite Daily is 79% more expensive. At distributor price, it’s only 17% more expensive.

And how's the nutrient comparison between the two? How many plant concentrates in the Centrum?

If price is all that matters to you, not nutritional content and health benefits, by all means save a few bucks and go for Centrum.
 
You have explained very little actually.

How many hours did you spend building your business? How much money did you spend? What was your gross income? What was your net?

Anyway I would much rather have this information from someone successful in the business anyway.
 
I've already told you, that business is still generating income, so it's not even possible to calculate the total income generated. If you wanted to calculate profitability, you'd have to change it on about the 13th of every month ... ka'ching.

Interesting that you think building a business that continues to generate profit a decade later, with no further work, is not "successful".

You set the bar high.
 
I've already told you, that business is still generating income, so it's not even possible to calculate the total income generated. If you wanted to calculate profitability, you'd have to change it on about the 13th of every month ... ka'ching.

I think you have used this argument before. It didn't mnake sense then, either. What's stopping you from reporting those numbers for any given date and just estimate your current monthly earnings.

Interesting that you think building a business that continues to generate profit a decade later, with no further work, is not "successful"

It is interesting that you think this would be enough to call your business "successful".

How much profit did you make last month from this business? That's a simple and straightforward question, right?

And even that wouldn't be enough without also knowing how much work and money you used to put into the business and how much it used to make you.
 
I anticipate my company continuing to generate money into the future as well. It doesn't mean I can't give a historical record of profit and loss (and investment).

Also past returns are no guarantee of future returns. Future returns are generally calculated into the company valuation at a discounted rate but they have nothing to do with calculating profit/loss for today and the past. In fact we aren't asking you how much your business is WORTH, we are asking how much profit it has made for the amount of work you've put in. Those are different questions.
 
It is interesting that you think this would be enough to call your business "successful".

I put $10 in a savings account at my bank 20 years ago. It continues to generate profit two decades later with no further work. I must have a successful business.
 
I think you have used this argument before. It didn't mnake sense then, either. What's stopping you from reporting those numbers for any given date and just estimate your current monthly earnings.

Read back.

It is interesting that you think this would be enough to call your business "successful".

A profitable business isn't successful? I would think that would be enough.

How much profit did you make last month from this business? That's a simple and straightforward question, right?

Sure. Me? None. Read back.

And even that wouldn't be enough without also knowing how much work and money you used to put into the business and how much it used to make you.

Read back.

Put it this way. If it averaged as little as $100/mth (it's more) over that 10 years, that would be equivalent to $24,000 invested at 5%. That's on top of the income earned while building that asset.

I did a lot less than $24,000 worth of hours.
 
Well that's new. USP is an older standard and I didn't realise they now "included" GMP. There doesn't seem to be anything more than GMP though.


Except all the other stuff, you mean. Suddenly it's gone from not being “GMP” to merely being “GMP.” Don't trip over the laboratory testing (and what they test for) in your rush to embarrass yourself.



I take it you believe that all that really matters in an orange is the ascorbic acid and macronutrients?


According to you, you don't need to invent things that I've said. So don't do it.


Nutrilite products are not "chemically processed" - and we are not talking about "the exact same compound". Plants contain many, many, many more compounds than are found in isolated synthetics.


Oh, I know. They're called 'contaminants' in science. That terminology would be found outside of your “might/suggests/shows promise to increase/decrease/enhance/prevent some tertiary compound/process of dubious benefit” (or harm).

So, unless you can provide a complete listing of the chemical compounds that make up 'alfalfa' and all the other weeds that your overpriced vitamins contain...you don't know WHAT is in them or WHAT they exactly do.


No, just bad comprehension on your part. Significant sales to non-IBOs are sufficient evidence something is not a pyramid. No sales to non-IBOs is not evidence something is a pyramid.


How dare you use the holy trinity of the “Amway Test” - sales to non-ibos, 70% rule and buy back rule- in such a flippant manner. Of course the FTC and courts have NO IDEA what that is. I must have just made that up myself. Plus, it's really not all three...because according to you, sales to non-ibos doesn't mean anything.


Oh, my mistake ... I actually BELIEVED YOU when I used your pricing. Silly me, I should have known better.


Not silly, just a greedy cultist. Seeing as you spend most of your time claiming that I haven't ever provided ANYTHING of truth, you seemed to jump on that tid-bit with gleeful abandon.


So, how's the nutrient content compare between Kirkland and Nutrilite? What's the phytonutrient content like in the Kirkland product? How many plant concentrates?


I LOVE the 'phytonutrient' stuff! I've already made fun of that earlier in this thread! So...just what 'might' these 'phytonutrients' “increase/decrease/enhance/prevent some tertiary compound/process of dubious benefit”?


If price is all that matters to you, not nutritional content and health benefits, by all means save a few bucks and go for Kirkland.


Claiming your dietary supplement is somehow superior because it contains the equivalent of lawn clippings isn't exactly proof that there is superior nutritional content (oh – there's MORE content, but that doesn't all mean SUPERIOR – see contaminants) that merits roughly $2 a day vs. $.03 a day. And yes, I've bumped it up beyond your ghetto offering of "Daily" vitamins and jumped right to your 'good' stuff. You know, the stuff with all the weeds in it.

Who was the one accusing people of confusing faith with facts? Oh, right, that was you.

Next thing you know, you'll be doing 'Perfect Water' demonstrations. At least people can see the proof right before their eyes!


And how's the nutrient comparison between the two? How many plant concentrates in the Centrum?

If price is all that matters to you, not nutritional content and health benefits, by all means save a few bucks and go for Centrum.


Ahh! The 'price equals quality' argument that Tex likes to use! That is exactly how his 'competitively priced' list came about. Since Amway products are overly expensive, they MUST be high quality (and better!) so they deserve to be judged against the highest priced products you can find in the real world!

Don't equate “overpriced vitamins bought by cultists to artificially boost their business because no one else will buy them” with “bad vitamins.” You can include “vitamins who's content is not defined and contains compounds that there is no data showing either benefit or harm.” If THAT's worth $2 a day to you, I've got an exciting business opportunity you might be interested in...

All your claims of the benefits of 'phytonutrients' and 'plant compounds' that have been pulverised and squashed into overpriced pills are based - from your own statements and references - purely on "might/could/shows promise" advertising disquised as science. If you can't tell the difference, you deserve to pay $2 for a $.03 pill.

P.S. To the 'profit' questioneers: If an IBO can earn back his sign-up fee of roughly $60 within a year's time and doesn't waste any money on stupid tools – they can claim a 'profit.' THAT's the level that Insider/Icerat is talking about.

To be fair to Icy (not that he ever returns the favor), I suspect he probably took in $12-$14K at his peak with a profit of probably $5-$6K when it was said and done. That involved a LOT of sweat and hours to get that far. It's nothing like that now. Reason probably $100-$200 a month, mostly retail. THAT's a realistic Amway business. $100-200K a month isn't.
 
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