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Amway TV ad

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cyborg, you don't have to have a recollection, just go back to page 15 and start reading.

The results are published averages for various pin levels. Pick one.

There are various reasons you wouldn't do the work. You're lazy, aren't willing to learn new things, are too afraid to approach other people, etc.

Bob, if you have $1 more in your pocket, call it a rebate. But what happens when that coupon is based on how many other shoppers you are responsible for shopping at the same store, and you get $8? Is it still a rebate?

Keep in mind these averages are also not profit but simply average income.

Profit is income - expenses. The bonuses on volume are simply rebates that can help improve your income/expense ratio. There are other types of bonuses as well.

If you spend a ton of money on Amway products but don't sell to anyone external this is no profit whatsoever, just rebates. Expenses include things like books, cd's, travel for function etc. There are very few scamway distributors that seem to make an actual profit that is declared on their taxes. At least nobody will own up to it ;)
 
Steve, if I read correctly you're saying your standard wholesale price was £2.10 and standard retail price was £5.00?

That means 58% of the final retail price was markup on wholesale.

I've no idea about the company you were dealing with, but the difference between Amway's best wholesale price and their recommended retail in the UK is roughly ... 30% retail markup + 21% volume rebates + 4% leadership profit sharing + 1% depth bonus + 0.5% "pin bonuses" + 1.5% "other" (Ruby, FAA, trips etc) which equals ....

58%

Remarkable. It's just like your business.


I didn't know the 21% volume rebate was on the ENTIRE RETAIL price as your calculation here is showing.

Also it's actually based on PV/BV so you can't calculate an exact number like this unless you are getting it from Amway directly or something. So what is your source for these percentages?k Keep in mind your percentages here are assuming MSRP as that's the way you calculated his markup.

In other words your numbers are not accurate. I'm not saying they are way off either because I haven't don't the calculations. Just that these are not accurate.
 
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Bob, you wouldn't know garbage versus fact if it crawled up your butt. LOL

Nobody will recognize a fact as long as you keep outputting nothing but garbage. No doubt you had more garbage in that post but I didn't bother reading it. Anything that follows your LOL is guaranteed to be garbage.
 
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No, it's because I believe you clearly fulfill the DSM-IV criteria for NPD and/or ICD-10 criteria of OCPD and perhaps others and don't want to waste my time.
You are so far off-base, it would be funny if you weren't so pathetic. Nice try to dodge the tool scam issue.
 
Keep in mind these averages are also not profit but simply average income. ---- Agreed, and as described above, these are gross profit, not net profit (income).

Profit is income - expenses. The bonuses on volume are simply rebates that can help improve your income/expense ratio. There are other types of bonuses as well. ---- This is why I call the terms GROSS profit and NET profit, as it clarifies the terms.

If you spend a ton of money on Amway products but don't sell to anyone external this is no profit whatsoever, just rebates. ---- You are showing your ignorance. Selling to external customers is not required for Platinums and above.

Expenses include things like books, cd's, travel for function etc. ---- Which is exactly why the cost of these items should be minimized.

There are very few scamway distributors that seem to make an actual profit that is declared on their taxes. At least nobody will own up to it ;) ---- That's because they are being tool scammed.
 
I didn't know the 21% volume rebate was on the ENTIRE RETAIL price as your calculation here is showing. ---- He didn't say it was. They are separate and add together.

Also it's actually based on PV/BV so you can't calculate an exact number like this unless you are getting it from Amway directly or something. ---- All IBOs now can get their products from Amway directly.

So what is your source for these percentages? ---- The bonus chart and other published figures.

k Keep in mind your percentages here are assuming MSRP as that's the way you calculated his markup. ---- If it isn't exact, it is close enough for the purpose he's illustrating.

In other words your numbers are not accurate. ---- See above.

I'm not saying they are way off either because I haven't don't the calculations. Just that these are not accurate. ---- Again, not exact, but close enough for the purpose he's discussing.
 
Nobody will recognize a fact as long as you keep outputting nothing but garbage. ---- As if you or most posters on this forum could tell the difference.

No doubt you had more garbage in that post but I didn't bother reading it. ---- No doubt you don't have a clue.

Anything that follows your LOL is guaranteed to be garbage. ---- Anything that follows your name is guarenteed to be garbage. LOL
 
All full of venom today aren't we? Yeesh. I wouldn't want to work with you even if you were pushing carts at the local department store.
 
There are various reasons you wouldn't do the work. You're lazy, aren't willing to learn new things, are too afraid to approach other people, etc.

None of these apply to me: I work in an investment bank.

cynical/cyborg, the terms you are reaching for are gross profit and net profit. For most IBOs, net profit is GROSSLY negative.

No it isn't.

What you're talking about isn't gross vs net because that involves tax - which you've not mentioned at all.

Profit generally involves the creation of value - you take raw materials, produce a product and sell the product for more than the cost of the raw materials.

What you are talking about here doesn't apply - there is no value creation going on in discounting. Buying something for less than what someone else buys it for does not mean you have generated profit - and no one is going to allow you to say otherwise because it just does not mean that.
 
I didn't know the 21% volume rebate was on the ENTIRE RETAIL price as your calculation here is showing.

Actually (contrary to Tex), I think you are right, I made a late night error there.

This means the markup with Amway is *less* than the that of the traditional system oggiesnr outlined, which makes his argument even MORE wrong, at least as it applies to Amway.
 
Actually (contrary to Tex), I think you are right, I made a late night error there.

This means the markup with Amway is *less* than the that of the traditional system oggiesnr outlined, which makes his argument even MORE wrong, at least as it applies to Amway.


So if it's wrong why did the company require the 95p price rather than my standard price? I suggest it's because of the layers in between. I sell to a shop at £2.10 then they take the whole mark-up. If I sell to pyramid the final agent may sell out at £5.00 having bought from the company at £2.10but the company wants its cut, those in the pyramid want theirs so it's not as straight forward as that. Amway International's profit comes from the difference between the price it buys at at the price it sells to its agents at.

I'm not sayng it's wrong, I'm just pointing out that longer chains means something has to give. How often have you looked in a catalogue and thought "That's neat" checked the price and realised that you can get the same on the High Street cheaper? Difference is the length of the supply chain, more links, more profits have to be built in.

Steve
 
Many years ago I was approached to supply a UK near equivilent of Amway with a product we made. The usual retail price was £5 and we charged £2.10 wholesale giving the gift industry's "double plus VAT" standard margin.

In order to meet a £5.00 retail price they needed a price from me of 95p! This was so the end seller down the pyramid could sell it out £5.00 and everyone in between take their cut. I didn't supply them.

Steve

Of course, if you HAD supplied them, they would have told their idiot retailers and customers how THEIR product is SPECIAL and SO MUCH BETTER than the competition, and REAL winners only buy it... despite the fact that you supplied the competition with the exact same product that they, the competition, sell for half the price.
 
What a nonsensical statement. Virtually by definition the 5% are the people who work hard. If you work hard then you're not "below" anyone.

Morally, of course, you are correct -- hard workers deserve respect. But considering the fact that one needs to be in the top 5% of workers in Amway to break even, and in the top 1% of workers in Amway to make the equivalent of minimum wage, Amway is just about the worse place in the world to waste you hard work on.

It is far better to get a job at McDonald's. If, as you say, 95% of people are not hard workers, then at McDonald's these folks would at least be making minimum wage, while in Amway they are actually losing money and need to have a second job just to have money for food. The top 5% at McDonald's -- 1 out of 20, that is, someone who manages a store or two -- are, if not rich, at least making credible middle-class salaries. In Amway they are making nothing. The top 1% -- the top guns, the big shots -- which are successful enough to make minimum wage working for Amway, make really good money in McDonald's.

Amway's is a sucker's bet. Virtually ANY other job or business whatever will make you more money for the time and effort invested.

P.S.

Would you make up your mind? EITHER Amway is a community of get-going winners, free-enterprise tycoons superior to those poor slobs who work in J.O.B.s (as you tell the believers), OR they are a bunch of slobs, 95% of whom are just not hard workers and will surely be losers due to this lamentable fact (as you tell those who point out the miserable success rate).

It can hardly be both. Are Amway people winners or losers? If winners, why is the success rate so low? If losers, why are you in it in the first place?
 
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So if it's wrong why did the company require the 95p price rather than my standard price?

I never said it was wrong for that company - I said it was wrong for Amway.

I suggest it's because of the layers in between. I sell to a shop at £2.10 then they take the whole mark-up. If I sell to pyramid the final agent may sell out at £5.00 having bought from the company at £2.10but the company wants its cut, those in the pyramid want theirs so it's not as straight forward as that. Amway International's profit comes from the difference between the price it buys at at the price it sells to its agents at.

Amway is a large manufacturer, and the products with profit it manufactures itself. While there are products available from Amway that it does not manufacture, their "wholesale" price and the retail price is the same, they're not designed for ABOs to resell, but just for their personal convenience.

The great majority of Amway's revenues, and by extension IBOs revenues, is from products Amway manufactures itself, these days primarily the Nutrilite and Artistry ranges.

I'm not sayng it's wrong, I'm just pointing out that longer chains means something has to give.

How often have you looked in a catalogue and thought "That's neat" checked the price and realised that you can get the same on the High Street cheaper? Difference is the length of the supply chain, more links, more profits have to be built in.

Of course, and the standard Amway "chain" from manufacturer to end user is from 1 to 7 links long, with the majority less than 4, very similar to traditional distribution. I outlined this earlier, with sourcing (the FTC)

You can't find Amway products on "High Street" (Amway flagship stores aside), so you can't find them cheaper there. Whenever I've compared with products of similar class, Amway has almost always been cheaper. With non-Amway products available through the Amway catalogue, if it's cheaper I buy it, if it's not, I don't. Some products become cheaper as you get increasing volume discounts though, so the same product may be good value for one IBO and not another.
 
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Morally, of course, you are correct -- hard workers deserve respect. But considering the fact that one needs to be in the top 5% of workers in Amway to break even, and in the top 1% of workers in Amway to make the equivalent of minimum wage, Amway is just about the worse place in the world to waste you hard work on.

Your figures here are completely and utterly false. You live in some fantasy world were you think that someone who signs an Amway app is suddenly "a worker".

It is far better to get a job at McDonald's. If, as you say, 95% of people are not hard workers, then at McDonald's these folks would at least be making minimum wage, while in Amway they are actually losing money and need to have a second job just to have money for food.

No, if the average McDonald's worker did what the average person who signed up with Amway did, they would be making ZERO, because they'd have been fired long ago. Indeed, they'd be spending money cause all they'd be doing is buying burgers.

They're not in business, they're customers. They don't expect to make money, why on earth do you think they should?

It always amazes me how some anti-Amway zealots seem to think Amway is a scam because you don't make money for nothing.

The top 5% at McDonald's -- 1 out of 20, that is, someone who manages a store or two -- are, if not rich, at least making credible middle-class salaries.

1 out of 20 McDonald's workers is a manager? Ya reckon?

Now tell me, of the other 19, how many show up to work? How many are trying to make money?

In Amway they are making nothing. The top 1% -- the top guns, the big shots -- which are successful enough to make minimum wage working for Amway, make really good money in McDonald's.

Complete and utter BS.

Amway's is a sucker's bet. Virtually ANY other job or business whatever will make you more money for the time and effort invested.

ROLFMAO!!! And here you go even mentioning "time and effort", yet you completely ignore it in all your earlier claims.

P.S.

Would you make up your mind? EITHER Amway is a community of get-going winners, free-enterprise tycoons superior to those poor slobs who work in J.O.B.s (as you tell the believers), OR they are a bunch of slobs, 95% of whom are just not hard workers and will surely be losers due to this lamentable fact (as you tell those who point out the miserable success rate).


Make up MY mind? You're the one making such ridiculous claims, I never made either of the stupid statements you've made here. The raw facts -

50% of people who register with Amway never do a damn thing after registering. Nothing. Not even order products.

Yet you think they should be making money?

Less than 30% ever attend any training sessions, even once, to learn how to develop a business.

Less than 25% ever sponsor even a single person into the business, and less than 13% do that and generate enough volume themselves or from other legs to earn a bonus.

Less 10% are have any customers, also a requirement to earn a bonus or, obviously, retail profit.

Less than 10% are even doing the barest minimum necessary to earn any income at all

Your entire rant here is predicated on the fact the other 90% don't make any money.

They don't expect to make any money. The majority of them are doing nothing more than shop.

They want a product. They order the product. They get the product.

Yet here are you arrogantly declaring them as lazy Amway failures!

It can hardly be both. Are Amway people winners or losers? If winners, why is the success rate so low? If losers, why are you in it in the first place?

"Success" rate? Who are you to define "success" for people? What gives you the right to call someone a failure or a loser when they are 100% successful in reaching their goals, which may be as simple as buying something. Who are you to declare someone who wants to make $100 a month a failure when they achieve it?

Your arrogance is astounding.
 
None of these apply to me: I work in an investment bank. ---- How do you know the etc. doesn't apply to you?

What you're talking about isn't gross vs net because that involves tax - which you've not mentioned at all. ---- Just because I haven't mentioned tax doesn't mean I don't include taxes in the equation. I don't mention every aspect of an issue every single time it comes up.

Profit generally involves the creation of value - you take raw materials, produce a product and sell the product for more than the cost of the raw materials. ---- Then Walmart makes no profit? All they do is take stuff that is already made and sell it. Same with most every other retail outlet.

What you are talking about here doesn't apply - there is no value creation going on in discounting. ---- Better not tell Walmart that. LOL

Buying something for less than what someone else buys it for does not mean you have generated profit - and no one is going to allow you to say otherwise because it just does not mean that. ---- I have said over and over again I am okay with the word "rebate", at least for the first 3% bonus level. What are YOUR thoughts on the $1 versus $8 rebate/profit question above, oh great investment banker (are you one of the ones that got bailed out?)?
 
Actually (contrary to Tex), I think you are right, I made a late night error there.

This means the markup with Amway is *less* than the that of the traditional system oggiesnr outlined, which makes his argument even MORE wrong, at least as it applies to Amway.
This isn't good news if the product price is higher. The PV/BV varies, the Double X example above illustrates the BV is greater than the IBO cost and about the same as the retail cost. Other products are less.
 
So if it's wrong why did the company require the 95p price rather than my standard price? I suggest it's because of the layers in between. I sell to a shop at £2.10 then they take the whole mark-up. If I sell to pyramid the final agent may sell out at £5.00 having bought from the company at £2.10but the company wants its cut, those in the pyramid want theirs so it's not as straight forward as that. Amway International's profit comes from the difference between the price it buys at at the price it sells to its agents at.

I'm not sayng it's wrong, I'm just pointing out that longer chains means something has to give. How often have you looked in a catalogue and thought "That's neat" checked the price and realised that you can get the same on the High Street cheaper? Difference is the length of the supply chain, more links, more profits have to be built in.

Steve
You're talking about a single example. We have hundreds of partner stores that sell mostly to non-IBOs, so their prices by definition are competitively priced. PV/BV is lower for them, but they are still willing to sell to IBOs at the same price as their other customers. Also, many of the catalog items are going away in September for that reason.

I did a comparison about 3 years ago, and easily found several Amway products that were competitive on a per use cost basis. Some were less, some about the same, some slightly more than a local grocery store and Walmart. I think I'll repeat the effort, as it has been some time and the recent price reductions should turn out even more favorable.
 
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