Amway TV ad

[NewtonTrino]

Call call call whatever. Seriously I don't care that much.

I think given what we know the burden of proof is definitely on the scammers to prove that the opportunity is a good one. Epic fail so far people!

 

[Tex2]

That's right, call. I've posted answers to ALL of these questions multiple times on various blogs/forums. I'm not going to waste my time doing it again. If you don't care that much, neither do I.

I'm not trying to prove the opportunity is a good one. I'm focused on shutting down the tool scam. The opportunity comes later.

 

[icerat]

I don't believe that many are making enough to quit their day jobs, or we'd all be seeing these products in Brick & Mortar retail stores.

ahhh, I always love this one ... if the products were any good they'd be in stores.

Uhuh. Which part of "Nutrilite is the #1 best selling supplement brand in the world" don't you understand? Wouldn't it make more sense (in fact it's still irrational) to say if GNC was any good, they'd sell it via direct sales, like the market leader does.

Or Artistry ... #4 in prestige cosmetics in the world.

Or eSpring ... #1 in home water treatment systems.

The real money in Amway and any other MLM (if we ignore the Tool Scam) is in recruiting people below you and profiting from their purchases.

So, translation .... the real money in MLM is in recruiting wholesale customers and selling to them at a lower profit margin, so that they can resell at a markup and profit.

Yup, you're kind of right. How many single-man businesses are there that make more money than companies in the same industry with large numbers of staff?

Profiting from "recruiting" is exactly the same as profiting from recruiting wholesale customers in EVERY product distribution business. By your logic, Coca-Cola is a scam because most Coke is not sold to the end consumer by Coca-Cola! They recruit distributors who recruit wholesalers who recruit retailers who recruit customers. What's the problem exactly?

Yes, some people will make money from that, those at the top of the pyramid.

You mean the Coca-Cola pyramid? Who makes the most money from selling Coke? Probably Coca-Cola. Why? They sell more Coke than anyone else does. They last guy in the chain probably sells the Coke to a consumer at a higher profit margin than Coke sells it to their distributors. But Coke makes more money. Why? Because by recruiting others in the distribution chain they sell more coke.

Apart from Coke themselves,the "top" of the distribution "pyramid" is anyone who buys enough Coke for Coca-Cola to deal with them directly. If you became a major purchaser of Coke, you get to be the "top of the pyramid"

Exactly the same as in Amway

You want to explain how Coke is a scam again?

It's no better than a lottery, a redistribution of the money that people put in.

Really? Which lottery do you enter? The ones I know of a based on chance. It's pure "luck" who wins. In the Coca Cola pyramid, the money is "redistributed" from consumers to those who facilitate distribution to consumers. Just like the Amway pyramid. Yet you believe Coca-Cola is no better than the lottery! Clearly that's what you must believe ... since it's the same "pyramid" distribution system.

If you're on top of the pyramid, you're samming those below you. If you're on the bottom, you're getting scammed.

Do you buy Coke? You're at the bottom of the distribution pyramid. You poor scammed fool.

If you're in the middle, and breaking even or making a small profit, you're hoping to rise to the top soon.

Yup, and sell more Coke, you can get it cheaper and make more profit! Not that hope has much to do with it. It has to do with how many people you get buying coke. Just like Amway.

Tex & Icerat, why are you so afraid to show your books?

Who's afraid? I have no books. I haven't been building an Amway business for a decade, and my profitable one was a decade ago in a different country and a different wife. As it happens, I started actively building again the past few days. I ran some meetings, spoke to some people. It's costing me some money. Just like the startup phase of any new business. Today I did a "get start" with a new ABO, she's not making any money either. We started work on a business strategy, for what she wants to achieve and what's she's willing to put in, she doesn't expect to reach break even for about 6 months or so. Pretty damn good for a business.

How much are you making?

I can't say how much we made in my old business, that business is still generating income for my former wife, because of what we did a decade ago. So every month, how much we made increases. Sooner or later it will eventually become zero, then I can add it all up and let you know how much I made, if I'm still alive.

How much is from retail sales?

Ultimately all of the income is from retail sales (sales to an end user). Like most distribution systems though (particular pre-internet), large businesses are primarily doing wholesale sales (sales for the purpose of resale). Unlike traditional distribution though, if you say buy 100,000 cans of Coca-cola and then can't sell it and don't want it for yourself to drink - you lose and Coke still wins. With Amway and other legitimate MLMs, this doesn't happen. You send it back, and Amway loses because they give you all your money back and cover shipping as well.

How much is from commissions off your downline?

How much of Coca-Cola's sales is from sales by Coca-Cola directly to the consumer? How much is from "commissions", ie markup on wholesale sales?

What is your churn? How many people do you recruit each month? How many leave?

For many years now the churn rate in my old business has been zero. Nobody is getting recruited, nobody is leaving. Just a bunch of happy customers buying stuff, and a happy (I assume) former wife getting a percentage.

"churn" though is a legitimate issue, as it is in any business. You gain customers, you lose customers. From what I understand though, the general experience with Amway is much the same as what I've seen - once people try out the products properly, they tend to become quite loyal users of them. Indeed a study I recently read about people's opinions of direct selling companies (ie MLM) found that while large numbers had a negative view of it - they were people who had zero personal experience. When they broke it down by people who had actually bought products from a direct sales company in the past - they overall had a positive view of the industry.

If people like the products and can easily obtain them again, they continue to buy them, year after year after year. One internal Amway survey was dubbed "the lonesome customer", because they found the reason why people stopped by Amway products was because the person supplying them disappeared. Alas, a weakness with the model.

How much are they (people in your downline) making/losing?

In my old group, as far as I'm aware nobody is trying to make any money. Some of them still do anyway, from what they did a decade ago with me. So nobody is losing any money, some are making money.

As I said before, there is no reason why in a network everyone can be profitable. Indeed, the more people that are profitable, the better it works - less churn and less work for everyone. It's certainly my aim that every single person who wants to make money does, but really it's ultimately up to them.

 

[NewtonTrino]

Nice long post that says nothing.

Do yourself a favor and find a counselor to help you break away from the brainwashing.

 

[Tex2]

As I said before, there is no reason why in a network everyone can be profitable. Indeed, the more people that are profitable, the better it works - less churn and less work for everyone. It's certainly my aim that every single person who wants to make money does, but really it's ultimately up to them.

As I said many times before, a major reason why 99% of IBOs are not profitable and the churn rate is so high is the tool scam. If it were your aim that every single person who wants to make money does, you would care how much money is being made via the tool scam. You don't, which makes your aim very poor.

 

[Tex2]

Nice long post that says nothing.

Do yourself a favor and find a counselor to help you break away from the brainwashing.

Not to be confused with your shorter posts that say nothing. LOL Do yourself a favor and find some facts to help you break away from the ignorance. LOL

 

[icerat]

Nice long post that says nothing.

When you don't read them

Do yourself a favor and find a counselor to help you break away from the brainwashing.

Right ... so I read all the evidence I can find, from both independent sources and otherwise, both critical and otherwise. I study it from the inside and outside. I learn more about the company and the people who work with it than more than a handful of people in the world probably know. I study and understand the model in depth. I spend years engaged in discussions with people who failed and people who have succeeded, with critics and supporters.

I read books by business academics about the business. I read dozens of papers by sociologists and economists and other academics. I even try the business myself for a few years.

I come to certain conclusions. I find flaws in the model, I find strengths in the model. I find things that I think can be changed and improved, things I think the company and others have done badly and even unethically.

These are conclusions that agree with the independent academics who have studied the business model.

These are conclusions that agree with independent judiciary around the world who have investigated the business model.

These are conclusions that disagree with you.

Yet somehow, I'm the one who is brainwashed and need counselling?

Check a mirror, friend.

 

[Tex2]

You should read one more book, one about business ethics.

You can get all of this right, but if you miss the tool scam, you are missing out on the biggest issue. Why is it the biggest issue? Because 99% of IBOs lose money to the tool scam and are operating at a net loss, while the Emeralds and above make multiple times more from the tool scam than Amway. If anyone wants to know more details, check out my site: http://texsquixtarblog.blogspot.com/2008/03/9-steps-of-truth.html

You are brainwashed and need counseling, just for a different reason than others think.

 

[NewtonTrino]

Yet somehow, I'm the one who is brainwashed and need counselling?

Yes.

 

[Tex2]

That was deep...as a puddle.

 

[NewtonTrino]

Do we really need to rehash the same stuff over and over. Bring up a new point and we'll talk about it!

 

[Tex2]

YOU are the one who rehashes the same stuff over and over. I don't think you know a new point you could intelligently discuss, because you have done very little of that so far.

 

[whump!]

Sorry, Icerat, the Coca-Cola sales example is invalid (I worked for the company). Their salespeople are "inside" salespeople (meaning employees and not contractors of any kind) with tightly controlled sales territories & customers. A Coke salesperson does not hire (or partner or anything else) his/her friend, relative, passerby bothered in a store, church acquaintance, etc. to be a direct competitor selling Coke and "splitting" any commission. Some of those sales do go to authorized distributors who have their own networks in some limited markets here in the States, but on-the-whole, Coke sells directly to their retail customers who ALSO DO NOT HIRE MORE OF THEIR OWN TO DIRECTLY COMPETE WITH THEMSELVES IN THEIR MARKET. Remember - someone wishing to open a store usually does some diligent level of market research of population density and retail competition within their market before even applying for a bank loan, let-alone contacting any sources of inventory (like Coca-Cola). If you can't guarantee a certain minimum volume, Coke won't sell directly to you. You'd have to buy from Costco or another wholesaler willing to handle a smaller volume through you. That's why 7-11 (a US convenience store chain) uses a company like the McClane Company as their source on almost everything they stock in their stores (most beverages which are a major source of 7-11's sales volume are among the exceptions).

Whump!

 

[NewtonTrino]

Good salespeople are worth their weight in gold in any industry. In scamway they don't really care how good you are at selling as long as you buy tools.

 

[Bluto]

Ah gee, reading all the (rather lengthy - given the paucity of any real value) blather in this thread makes me nostalgic for "Dare to be Great" and "Oil of Mink Koscot Cosmetics" and the downhome marketing wisdom of Glenn Turner.

He was my introduction into the bizarro-world of pyramid scams and cult, "groupthink" living. After Mr. Turner's abrupt exit from the land of the free to the hardrock hotel, I was left without a mentor, so I decided to join a REAL cult. That being a religious organization out of Ohio.

One day we were having a religious pep-rally of sorts in one of the meeting rooms in the Holiday Inn in Beloxi, MS. Unbeknownst to us, in the adjoining room was a pep-rally for Amway "distributors". Both meetings had their breaktime at about the same moment, and all the attendees from both meetings started intermingling. Nobody really knew who was who, but we were all having a great time talking about "positive believing" and "believing will make it so" and other staples of the delusional and we would've gotten along splendidly until we each got to our "bottom line" and realized we were saying the same words, but actually talking about entirely different things.

It was an entertaining half-hour or so - as is this thread...

 

[icerat]

Sorry, Icerat, the Coca-Cola sales example is invalid (I worked for the company). Their salespeople are "inside" salespeople (meaning employees and not contractors of any kind) with tightly controlled sales territories & customers.

What a load of unmitigated crap. Hands up anyone who has bought Coca-Cola from Coca-Cola direct from a Coke employed salesperson?

Right, now hands up who has bought it from a 7-11 or a supermarket or a McDonalds or whatever?

QED. Most people who "sell" coca-cola to retail customers are not employees of Coca-Cola.

A Coke salesperson does not hire (or partner or anything else) his/her friend, relative, passerby bothered in a store, church acquaintance, etc. to be a direct competitor selling Coke and "splitting" any commission.

So you really don't understand what I'm talking about do you? When I said "Coca-Cola" (the company) in the previous post, that naturally includes all their employees. Obviously the corporate entity is unable to really "sell" stuff, it needs people to do that stuff.

Some of those sales do go to authorized distributors who have their own networks in some limited markets here in the States, but on-the-whole, Coke sells directly to their retail customers who ALSO DO NOT HIRE MORE OF THEIR OWN TO DIRECTLY COMPETE WITH THEMSELVES IN THEIR MARKET.

Wow, you don't even know what a "retail customer" is, do you? No wonder you didn't understand my last post and had to resort to silly ignorant statements in all caps.

Let's try again. Hands up anyone who has bought Coca-Cola directly from Coca-Cola (the company) for their own personal use?

And who has bought it from 7-11, the corner store, the kiosk at the ballpark, McDonalds, the supermarket, whatever?

Whump what have us believe that "on the whole" Coca-Cola sells directly to us Coke drinkers and all the stuff you find in stores etc is so minor as to be ignored.

Whump is either really ignorant about how Coca-Cola really operates or he actually has no idea of even some basic definitions, like "retail customer"

Either way, his credibility is shot.

Remember - someone wishing to open a store usually does some diligent level of market research of population density and retail competition within their market before even applying for a bank loan, let-alone contacting any sources of inventory (like Coca-Cola). If you can't guarantee a certain minimum volume, Coke won't sell directly to you.[/quote]

But hang on - you claimed that "on the whole" everyone buys direct from Coke! Oh, that's right, you don't understand what you're talking about.

So we'll ignore that. Who does the guy with the hot dog stand on the corner buy his coke from before he sells it to his retail customer? Does he buy it directly from Coca-Cola? I doubt it. He doesn't reach those "minimum volumes" does he? So who does he buy from?

You'd have to buy from Costco or another wholesaler willing to handle a smaller volume through you.

Bingo! They buy from a wholesaler - this is exactly what I explained in the previous post! Yet a few paragraphs back you're claiming something entirely different.

That's why 7-11 (a US convenience store chain) uses a company like the McClane Company as their source on almost everything they stock in their stores (most beverages which are a major source of 7-11's sales volume are among the exceptions).

And McClane is what, a wholesaler that deals directly with Coca-Cola, and they qualify as such because they order enough?

Sounds exactly like an Amway "direct distributor".

 

[icerat]

Good salespeople are worth their weight in gold in any industry. In scamway they don't really care how good you are at selling as long as you buy tools.

Uhuh. And yet in Amway the compensation plan is 100% based on how much you "sell". You only get a fancy title like "Diamond" if you "sell" a lot of stuff consistently, indeed for a Diamond at least $150,000 worth of stuff a month.

So all the Amway money, and all the Amway titles, it's all based on how much you "sell". But NewtonTrino isn't talking about Amway, he's talking about something called "scamway", which apparently operates differently. The thread's about Amway NewtonTrino, not some mythical company that operates in some other bizarre fashion.

 

[Tex2]

Scamway refers to the tool scam, which DOES operate in a bizarre fashion.

I say again, "You can get all of this right, but if you miss the tool scam, you are missing out on the biggest issue. Why is it the biggest issue? Because 99% of IBOs lose money to the tool scam and are operating at a net loss, while the Emeralds and above make multiple times more from the tool scam than Amway. If anyone wants to know more details, check out my site: http://texsquixtarblog.blogspot.com/2008/03/9-steps-of-truth.html"

 

[Almo]

"The real money in Amway and any other MLM (if we ignore the Tool Scam) is in recruiting people below you and profiting from their purchases. Yes, some people will make money from that, those at the top of the pyramid." That's how MLM works. The idea is to work yourself to the top of the "pyramid", if you want to do that. There is no scamming going on with this model (minus the tool scam), it is merely monetarily rewarding those who have been responsible for more volume more than those who have been responsible for less volume. It's called CAPITALISM.

But volume only comes from those IN the system! That's why it's a pyramid scheme! You're THIS CLOSE to realizing what a hellhole you're in, and getting out of it! It's frustrating for me to see intelligent people understand the trouble they're in, but not how to get out.

ETA: On the Coke thing... Icerat, you missed the important bit. According to Whump, Coke salesmen do not recruit other sales men in their area, since that would be increasing competition with themselves. Amway depends on it, since you can't make enough money selling product to end customers because they are overpriced. The main purchasers of Amway products are the distributors, which is why you must recruit them to earn money.

So nominally, you're recruiting competition (other people who will sell Amway), but in reality, you're recruiting the customers themselves.

Coke sells on the open market to anyone. The Coca-Cola company does not get a cut of sales to me. The Coca-Cola company makes money selling to the bottlers. The bottlers make money selling to me.

The bottlers do not sell to other bottlers who sell to other bottlers who try to sell to me (and other bottlers (who also try to sell to other bottlers who try to sell to me)) so that each person upline gets credit for the sale.

Big difference.

 

[Tex2]

But volume only comes from those IN the system! That's why it's a pyramid scheme! You're THIS CLOSE to realizing what a hellhole you're in, and getting out of it! It's frustrating for me to see intelligent people understand the trouble they're in, but not how to get out.

I have customers, so do others, so it does NOT only come from thsoe IN the system! You are a liar. Admit you're WRONG, LIAR! Also, the FTC has gone on record as saying this issue, by itself, is NOT an illegal pyramid. Get a clue, then get a grip, then realize everything other than the tool scam is merely a distraction! LOL

The Coke analogy wasn't intended to perfectly fit every nuance exactly, it was intended to illustrate a point, and one that went WAY over your collective little brains. So much for this being a critical thinking site. More like pre-K level...now go back to your crayons! LOL