Amway TV ad

[icerat]

You say there are some Artistry products that are competitive and sometimes cheaper. Could you give an example of each that you feel could be easily supported without requiring such deep analysis of unquantifiable data such as prestige and environmental concern?

Fine, here's lipstick, from a quick google -

lancome lipcolor $22.00-$25.00

clinique lipcolour, $14.00

artistry sheer lip colour with spf 15 $15.40

Here's some examples of a "night time creme" -

clinique repairwear intensive night cream 1.7oz $48.50

lancome absolute night premium bx 2.6oz $145

artistry time defiance night recovery creme 1.76oz $61.00

I already gave an example earlier of the daily multi-vitamin, only fractionally more expensive than the Centrum version, and clearly with a "story to tell" that adds value.

What else? Salon quality shampoos and conditioners -

Redken Body Full Shampoo 10.1oz $11.05 (on special)

Satinique Volumising Shampoo 10foz $8.00

RedkenBody Full Conditioner 8.5oz $11.90 (on special)

Satinique Volumising Detangler 10foz $10.70

Phosphate-free enviro friendly dishwashing detergent

Sevent Generation, Free & Clear approx 45 washes, $5.49

SA8 Phosphate free Dishwashing Detergent approx 100 washes, $10.50

Amway manufactures over 450 products so there's lots that can be compared.

I am truly interested since I am amazed that a company with such a broad selection of products could put so much nuance into every single one.

This is a good and bad thing about Amway. They really do put that much care into virtually every product (They have over 500 R&D scientists). That's great for quality, but makes it difficult for someone marketing them - there's too much to learn. Many folk who get involved try to market products without learning the story, and don't succeed so well.

It would even be helpful to see an analysis of a more expensive product where the higher price be easily justified by a more expensive manufacturing process or more expensive/higher quality ingredients. I think we have already had general agreement that a 50 dollar premium for fancier vitamin C, while not illegal, is more than most would consider paying for the added value.

With regards the Nutrilite products, I recommend fully reviewing http://www.nutrilite.com. There's also a Discovery channel documentary "The Quest for Nutrition" which is extremely interesting.

I realize you are wary of putting out just any product without a fair evaluation, but as someone who can give a 90 min seminar on vitamin C,

umm ... no, Vitamin C barely gets a mention

surely you have more than enough knowledge of your product to cherry pick a few to show that there are some very competitive and or lower priced products to be had from Amway.

The Nutrilite story is relatively simple one - it's essentially organically grown concentrated food. Fibre, water, and sugars are taken out, nutrient content is monitored from "seed to serving". It really is a fascinating brand. There's actually a film from 1954 on youtube that gives an idea of the approach -

From the Ground Up - Part I
From the Ground Up - Part II

Things have obviously gotten a lot more sophisticated since then, but the approach is still similar.

If you're ever in California, The Nutrilite Institite Center for Optimal Health is open to the public. Alas I live on the other side of the planet.

 

[icerat]

If people want to buy from networks then it is not for me to say they shouldn't. If people want to participate selling in such networks that is also their choice, although I think many will be disappointed if they view it as a get rich quick vehicle.

Yup, they will absolutely be disappointed, depending what you call "quick". Like any business it takes years of hard work without much return to build a decent sized income. On average it takes a little under 10 years to build a business that generates around $250K/yr+ in profits. Folk have done it in remarkably short periods of time, but they've been remarkable people.

 

[NewtonTrino]

Note that icerats numbers here are very questionable.

 

[fls]

I already gave an example earlier of the daily multi-vitamin, only fractionally more expensive than the Centrum version, and clearly with a "story to tell" that adds value.

With regards the Nutrilite products, I recommend fully reviewing http://www.nutrilite.com. There's also a Discovery channel documentary "The Quest for Nutrition" which is extremely interesting.

The Nutrilite story is relatively simple one - it's essentially organically grown concentrated food. Fibre, water, and sugars are taken out, nutrient content is monitored from "seed to serving". It really is a fascinating brand. There's actually a film from 1954 on youtube that gives an idea of the approach -

From the Ground Up - Part I
From the Ground Up - Part II

Things have obviously gotten a lot more sophisticated since then, but the approach is still similar.

If you're ever in California, The Nutrilite Institite Center for Optimal Health is open to the public. Alas I live on the other side of the planet.

Ah, so the value that is added, the 'better' in your better product, is simply that there is a story attached to the production of the product, not that there is any inherent value added to the product. That was my impression (thank you for confirming it).

Linda

 

[Bob Klase]

Stupid products or marketing claims can make an MLM stupid, just like any other business

And they're much more common Amway than most other businesses.

Dishonest reps or management can make an MLM dishonest, just like any other business

And they're much more common Amway than most other businesses.

Unethical reps or management can make an MLM unethical, just like any other business

And they're much more common Amway than most other businesses.

All of those things happen in MLM, as they happen in other businesses.[/QUOTE]


And they happen in Amway more than in in most other businesses. In large part because very few businesses give so little actual business training to people who are supposed to actually be running their business.

Very often the training is done by someone who got recruited into Amway just a couple weeks before you did. Many (probably most or all) of the so-called weekend 'training seminars' (or whatever they call them) are not training seminars at all. They're combined revival services (often with heavy religious overtones or religious period) motivation sessions (which motivate you to do the things you don't know how to do because the sponsors are too busy motivating you to actually teach you how to run a business.)

 

[Bob Klase]

lol, that's it in a nutshell. Direct marketing is supposed to save the consumer money by cutting out the middleman.

That reminds me (slightly OT but not really)- a couple years ago a couple tried to recruit me into an MLM (not Amway, but I don't recall what it was). In the first 5 minutes of their presentation they told me 3 things which I knew could not be true. I was polite and didn't say anything. Then they said "now, since our company doesn't actually manufacture any of these products we don't have all that overhead"!

They were very sincere and had just been recruited themselves a couple weeks ago. When they said that I had to stop and ask them who was doing the manufacturing and where they thought the money to pay the overhead was coming from.

After I explained that whether they were paying the overhead directly or it was included in the cost of the products they bought from the manufacturer, the money to pay the overhead was included in the cost of the product. They seemed honestly surprised. I suggested they save time and not waste anymore of it trying to recruit me, then wished them success if they decided to continue in a business which obviously hadn't been totally honest in teaching how the business worked.

One of the points is that like Amway (and many other MLM's), people are recruited by misleading claims and outright dishonesty because they don't know now business and the money flow works in the real world. Instead of ever getting any real training in areas like that, they are only taught how to recruit, motivate (and control) other people.

 

[Bob Klase]

There's variants, you can go the low price, low margin, high volume path, ala costco/walmart, or you can go high price, lower volume, high margin path.

Or you can go the Amway path- high price, higher volume, high margin path.

 

[Skeptic]

Well, icerat convinced ME Nutrilite products are worth it. Hey, if you can't trust a 50-year-old commercial on youtube about WHY I now need to pay a $50 premium for vitamin C tablets, who can you trust?

icerat: two simple questions:

1). What was the LARGEST NUMBER of REAL customers you ever had for your Amway's products, per month?

Do not include people already in Amway (e.g., your "downline"), people you tried to recruit, or your family members. Only people who bought the products because they thought they're worth it, without interest in the "great opportunity" or in your own well-being.

2). HOW MUCH PROFIT was the most you ever made in Amway, per month?

No, don't show me the check you got from Amway -- you know very well that isn't PROFIT, since a lot of it passes to other hands in your "downline". I mean actual profit.

An honest look at both numbers is almost certain to make us laugh, which is why, I predict, you'll avoid the question.

But I agree Amway sure goes the "high pice, lower volume" path: a price three times as much (or more) as comparable products, a "volume" made up mostly, if not entirely, of the Amway salesmen themselves.

So do all pyramid schemes.

 

[dickenslover]

Two words -- cognitive dissonance

It explains a lot. One you apply this to your situation, you can see your way out of it.

 

[Ferguson]

With regards the Nutrilite products, I recommend fully reviewing http://www.nutrilite.com. There's also a Discovery channel documentary "The Quest for Nutrition" which is extremely interesting.

Just for the reference of any interested parties, "The Quest for Nutrition" can be viewed here:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2918532031358196867

 

[icerat]

1). What was the LARGEST NUMBER of REAL customers you ever had for your Amway's products, per month?

Do not include people already in Amway (e.g., your "downline"), people you tried to recruit, or your family members. Only people who bought the products because they thought they're worth it, without interest in the "great opportunity" or in your own well-being.

With your qualifier, this is an invalid leading question, an you know it. You want to know the number of "real" customers, except then want to exclude a whole range of "real" customers. For what purpose?

2). HOW MUCH PROFIT was the most you ever made in Amway, per month?

Around $3000

No, don't show me the check you got from Amway -- you know very well that isn't PROFIT, since a lot of it passes to other hands in your "downline". I mean actual profit.

More signs of your ignorance. I've never received a check from Amway, they pay electronically, and all downline payments are done for me before it's paid to me.

An honest look at both numbers is almost certain to make us laugh, which is why, I predict, you'll avoid the question.

A similar discussion came up on Amway Talk recently, with a similiar idiotic comment made

But I agree Amway sure goes the "high pice, lower volume" path: a price three times as much (or more) as comparable products, a "volume" made up mostly, if not entirely, of the Amway salesmen themselves.

You don't actually bother to read what I post do you?

 

[icerat]

Bob,

You make some legitimate comments about training and MLMs. This is one of the weaknesses of the model, that folk can get started and go out doing things without really knowing what they're talking about. Amway got slapped by both the FTC in the US and the courts in the UK for failing to properly monitor and control what the field was doing and saying. Things are improving, and indeed in the UK they're trialling a system where you cannot sponsor anyone until having undertaken a certain amount of training, and indeed developed a certain level of customer volume.

The fact that untrained folk say the wrong thing doesn't however invalidate the business model itself.

 

[icerat]

It's interesting to me how proudly the specific claim of "#1 in Online Health & Beauty sales" is touted.

If Amway can really offer a more convenient, higher-value, product right to consumer's doors, while "cutting out the middlemen," then after 50 years in business shouldn't Amway be cleaning the clocks of brick and mortar stores? Shouldn't they be dominating American market shares?
Why are they only leading in online sales in the woo-filled and notoriously exploitable "Health" and "Beauty" markets?

Amway doesn't "cut out the middleman", it allows anyone to become the "middleman" and profit from that.

 

[El Greco]

I don't know much about Amway products in order to discuss them. What I do know, is that I have never seen so pressing people as the Amway businessmen. I have happened to meet many people involved with Amway and I rarely even have the time to ask "what do you do for a living". They tell me upfront. When I'm told by a third person that "this guy is in Amway", I can count on him aproaching me for "a business opportunity". I have had guys who barely knew me trying hard to find my number and call me to meet. I have had women approaching me in a way indicative of flirting, just to find out after a while that it was all about Amway. Getting a call from a bank employee pushing a credit card or an unknown telemarketer trying to sell a water purifier is annoying, but meeting an Amway salesman is almost a physically painful experience because they try to approach you via normal socialization and it takes a good while before you feel you have to shut down your politeness. I have known Amwayers who have made lists of everyone they had ever been introduced to, even if they only met them for a few minutes, and then tried to contact all of them. This behaviour, I have never seen in another category of professionals, no matter how pressed for money or greedy they might be.

 

[Eddie Dane]

I don't know much about Amway products in order to discuss them. What I do know, is that I have never seen so pressing people as the Amway businessmen. I have happened to meet many people involved with Amway and I rarely even have the time to ask "what do you do for a living". They tell me upfront. When I'm told by a third person that "this guy is in Amway", I can count on him aproaching me for "a business opportunity". I have had guys who barely knew me trying hard to find my number and call me to meet. I have had women approaching me in a way indicative of flirting, just to find out after a while that it was all about Amway. Getting a call from a bank employee pushing a credit card or an unknown telemarketer trying to sell a water purifier is annoying, but meeting an Amway salesman is almost a physically painful experience because they try to approach you via normal socialization and it takes a good while before you feel you have to shut down your politeness. I have known Amwayers who have made lists of everyone they had ever been introduced to, even if they only met them for a few minutes, and then tried to contact all of them. This behaviour, I have never seen in another category of professionals, no matter how pressed for money or greedy they might be.

You have to cut them some slack.
Please keep in mind that they've lost contact with all their friends and family.

They're just starved for human contact, really.

 

[icerat]

El Greco,

I guarantee you 100% you've met many folk "in" Amway and you've never known it.

I'm in the process of another new business startup, and when launched we're going to make sure everybody we know knows we're open for business, offering a service we believe anyone can benefit from.

Personally I think it would be pretty odd behaviour to start a business and NOT let your friends and family know, particularly if you think it has something to offer them.

Having said that, yup, there's some Amway folk that do stuff that is not professional. One group is notorious for teaching their folk to pretty much stalk people in bookstores. Do it enough you might get a few positive responses and some results, but it's not exactly good for the reputation is it?

 

[Skeptic]

With your qualifier, this is an invalid leading question, an you know it. You want to know the number of "real" customers, except then want to exclude a whole range of "real" customers. For what purpose?

To see whether it's a pyramid scheme. You see, when the only, or the vast majority, of those who buy the products are themselves in the pyramid, it is clear the real motivation for buying is not the "great products", but the joining of the scheme. Only if most customers are customers who actually buy the product without concern for their place in the pyramid can the MLM be considered legitimate. I, for one, know of no such MLM.

It's not wrong for Amway people to buy Amway products, but there is something very wrong if they're the only ones doing so. To give an analogy, I'm willing to bet that most (say) Ford workers own a Ford. But surely 99% of those who buy a Ford are not Ford workers, which is why Ford is not a pyramid scheme.

Around $3000

Not bad at all! However, the question remains how much of that profit is due to getting the "downline"'s money, and how much is from actual customers.

More signs of your ignorance. I've never received a check from Amway, they pay electronically, and all downline payments are done for me before it's paid to me.

(Shrug)

So they changed the method of the payment, but not the pyramid structure.

 

[Almo]

...however it appears to me that many folk are calling Amway...

Many folk who get involved try to market products...

Folk have done it in remarkably short periods of time...

...that folk can get started and go out doing things without really knowing... The fact that untrained folk say the wrong thing...

I'm curious about something... Several MLM people I've seen on the internet use the word "folk" to refer to either customers or members. Is this something recommended to them? Is it part of the MLM culture? Or is it just easier to type than "people?" The examples quoted are just from this page.

 

[icerat]

To see whether it's a pyramid scheme.

You still haven't read the definition of a pyramid scheme have you?

You see, when the only, or the vast majority, of those who buy the products are themselves in the pyramid, it is clear the real motivation for buying is not the "great products", but the joining of the scheme.

It's "clear" is it? So it's your opinion the average consumer is a complete idiot it more ways than one then? All those products I listed earlier, which were priced similarly or cheaper than the competition, can be bought 20-30% cheaper if you pay a small yearly membership fee (less than CostCo). If you want to buy more than a few products a year, you would be economically better off "joining the scheme".

So people "joining the scheme" can actually be considered proof of legitimate demand - it means people want enough of them that they're willing to pay a membership fee to get them.

On the otherhand, if their motivation to purchase was "to make money", then what could logically expect they're doing the things necessary to make money - yet less than 20% even attend training sessions and less than 13% sponsor (introduce) anyone.

Clearly you think people who like the products should be idiots and NOT join, and people who just want to make money should be idiots, join and do nothing to make money!

Yeah, that makes sense ....

Only if most customers are customers who actually buy the product without concern for their place in the pyramid can the MLM be considered legitimate. I, for one, know of no such MLM.

Clearly you don't read my posts. I apparently don't either - I wasn't going to waste my time on your silly posts.

It's not wrong for Amway people to buy Amway products, but there is something very wrong if they're the only ones doing so.

They're not, read the posts.

You may also want to read Myth: It's a pyramid if most products are bought by ibos

 

[Furcifer]

You may also want to read Myth: It's a pyramid if most products are bought by ibos

No,no,no! You are playing this game of semantics and we aren't buyin' (literally). If you read that article there is the qualifier "illegal" before "pyramid scheme" in every line. I know it's not an illegal pyramid scheme, IT'S A LEGAL ONE!

It's actually a very clever way of doing business, it's even an "appropriate" means of renumeration. It becomes a pyramid scheme when the sole purpose is to attract more "down line" recruits that will never actually make money, only contribute to the profits of the ones recruiting them (this is the base of the pyramid). The business continues to rely on the failure of the downlines to exist. That's what started this OT, the number of people selling Amway and what they are actually making.