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Amway Business Math?

Your expenses did change. You spent time you otherwise would have spent enjoying the company of your friends on a sales pitch. This time has a value, or should have.

Opportunity cost was already explicitly excluded from this discussion

You deserve to be compensated for the time, as well as those material goods you spent money on creating the "business situation."

Man, I've spent I've got no idea how many hours pitching a startup the last couple of months. I never knew someone was supposed to be compensating me for it! Where do I send the bill?

If the argument is that you are doing nothing different in the two cases, then claiming it as a deduction is fraud. If there is some aspect that makes the two cases different, then it very well might be tax deductible.

Again, I also said we're assuming the tax authorities consider it business activity.

It is interesting that these examples all share one attribute: they depend on losing money with an Amway IBO.

Yeah, really interesting how when we're discussing the example of an IBO having a loss-making business that we're discussing examples involving a loss-making business. That's just so odd! :rolleyes:

Naturally, if someone were able to make money, they would be paying taxes on their profits. All actual businesses accept this, and in fact, strive to make money despite this. One measure of business health is taxes paid on profits made - this isn't a bad thing at all. I am happy to say I pay taxes on my business income, because, well... I make money.

Yup. Your reason for stating the obvious is what exactly?

An older article discusses a tax court loss for an Amway IBO:
http://www.hiddenmysteries.org/conspiracy/conspiracy/amwaybush5.shtml


And here's the IRS on distinguishing between a business and a hobby:
http://www.irs.gov/uac/Business-or-Hobby?-Answer-Has-Implications-for-Deductions

Yes, that's exactly the point I was making from the start. I suspect this guy is on shaky ground claiming business deductions when he publicly admits little business building activity

Please note: it isn't up to the taxpayer to determine their own definitions for the terms used - that falls to the IRS and tax court.

Hilarious that you should point this out, given in all other discussions on MLM income you and others like Joecool maintain the position that the very act of registering with Amway makes you an operational business and IRS definitions are irrelevant:rolleyes:
 
Hilarious that you should point this out, given in all other discussions on MLM income you and others like Joecool maintain the position that the very act of registering with Amway makes you an operational business and IRS definitions are irrelevant:rolleyes:

I don't understand what you mean here. Could you rephrase?
 
I don't understand what you mean here. Could you rephrase?

(Legitimate) MLMs supply income disclosure statements with "average incomes" for various levels of achievement. In the typical disclosure, the broadest category includes a majority of people who would not even come close to having enough "business activity" to be considered as operating a business by the IRS. MLM critics (including yourself on other threads on this site and alas many otherwise rational skeptics) ignore this and insist that because people who aren't operating a business are not making money, then it's a bad business opportunity.

My position has always been that if you want to know if operating a certain business is a good opportunity, then you should consider the success or otherwise of those who are actually operating a business. How to define that? The IRS already does.
 
(Legitimate) MLMs supply income disclosure statements with "average incomes" for various levels of achievement. In the typical disclosure, the broadest category includes a majority of people who would not even come close to having enough "business activity" to be considered as operating a business by the IRS. MLM critics (including yourself on other threads on this site and alas many otherwise rational skeptics) ignore this and insist that because people who aren't operating a business are not making money, then it's a bad business opportunity.

My position has always been that if you want to know if operating a certain business is a good opportunity, then you should consider the success or otherwise of those who are actually operating a business. How to define that? The IRS already does.

Thank you. I think I understand what you meant and agree - most/many Amway IBOs would be classified by the IRS as hobbies (or something else). And, if Amway is promoting them as businesses, then they are being misleading.

Of course, language used by Amway, like "entrepreneur" and "start your own business" (cite: http://www.amway.com/start-a-business/we-are-amway?mkwid=sOOBF7yXV&pcrid=29387505258&pkw=amway&pmt=p) do not help matters. Neither does the meaning of IBO: Individual Business Owner.

Bestowing the title of IBO does not a business make, at least from the IRS perspective.
 
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Thank you. I think I understand what you meant and agree - most/many Amway IBOs would be classified by the IRS as hobbies (or something else). And, if Amway is promoting them as businesses, then they are being misleading.

Of course, language used by Amway, like "entrepreneur" and "start your own business" (cite: http://www.amway.com/start-a-business/we-are-amway?mkwid=sOOBF7yXV&pcrid=29387505258&pkw=amway&pmt=p) do not help matters. Neither does the meaning of IBO: Individual Business Owner.

Bestowing the title of IBO does not a business make, at least from the IRS perspective.

IBO= Independent Business Owner. Different terms are used in other markets. Various MLMs have tried to categorise people differently based on actual activity but it has it's own challenges - people can and do migrate between being active and inactive at any time, and multiple times. Many MLM critics claim that by trying to do such classifications they're just trying to rig the numbers to look better.

In understanding what's going on it's important to understand the primary purpose of an income disclosure document from the perspective of a company - it's to legally ensure they can not be accused of overselling an opportunity or promoting unrealistic income possibilities. From this perspective corporate legal departments are more than happy to have official documents undersell as it provides them with legal cover.

By attending just one Amway-related meeting in the year, the author of the blog post in question is considered an active business builder by Amway, and included in income statistics. This would be the case even if they did not attempt to sell a single product and did not attempt to recruit a single new distributor. I am doubtful the IRS (or CRA) would similarly categorise them.
 
IBO= Independent Business Owner. Different terms are used in other markets. Various MLMs have tried to categorise people differently based on actual activity but it has it's own challenges - people can and do migrate between being active and inactive at any time, and multiple times. Many MLM critics claim that by trying to do such classifications they're just trying to rig the numbers to look better.

In understanding what's going on it's important to understand the primary purpose of an income disclosure document from the perspective of a company - it's to legally ensure they can not be accused of overselling an opportunity or promoting unrealistic income possibilities. From this perspective corporate legal departments are more than happy to have official documents undersell as it provides them with legal cover.

By attending just one Amway-related meeting in the year, the author of the blog post in question is considered an active business builder by Amway, and included in income statistics. This would be the case even if they did not attempt to sell a single product and did not attempt to recruit a single new distributor. I am doubtful the IRS (or CRA) would similarly categorise them.

So why does Amway count these folks as IBO's? Why do IBO leaders encourage these folks to run hobby businesses? How did the author of this blog post get the idea he was a legitimate business owner making a profit if he is in reality, running a hobby business?
 
"Too much time and money? With Amway you can have an expensive hobby, playing business with money from your real job!"

Nah, haven't seen that ad.
 
Another Amway IBO nailed by an audit:

http://rothcpa.com/2014/04/tax-roun...ur-car-and-shame-on-you-for-doing-my-bidding/

Manner in Which Petitioners Carried On the Amway Activity

Although petitioners kept records of their Amway expenses, they did not use those records to analyze their business performance or to prepare profit projections, a break-even analysis, or a formal budget. Despite several years of activity during which they realized cumulative net losses of $192,427, petitioners failed to make any meaningful change in their strategy or tactics in an effort to increase the likelihood of earning a profit. On this record, it is a fair inference that petitioners used their records only to compute the amounts of losses attributable to the Amway activity when preparing their tax returns. Considering all the facts and circumstances, we conclude that petitioners did not conduct the Amway activity in a businesslike manner.

Petitioners’ History of Income or Loss

At the time of trial petitioners had never reported an annual profit in respect of the Amway activity. To the contrary, they reported cumulative net losses of $192,427 from 2005 through 2011. The modest gross receipts that petitioners derived from the activity have been eclipsed by the substantial expenses they incurred over the years. Although petitioners testified that they believe the Amway activity will eventually generate profits, we cannot discern on this record any definitive trend to the upside for petitioners, and there certainly is no indication that they are on their way to the level of profitability that would allow them to recoup the substantial cumulative losses they have incurred to date. In sum, petitioners’ history of consistent and substantial losses is indicative of a lack of profit objective.
 

I highlighted the scary part:
Petitioners’ History of Income or Loss

At the time of trial petitioners had never reported an annual profit in respect of the Amway activity. To the contrary, they reported cumulative net losses of $192,427 from 2005 through 2011. The modest gross receipts that petitioners derived from the activity have been eclipsed by the substantial expenses they incurred over the years. Although petitioners testified that they believe the Amway activity will eventually generate profits, we cannot discern on this record any definitive trend to the upside for petitioners, and there certainly is no indication that they are on their way to the level of profitability that would allow them to recoup the substantial cumulative losses they have incurred to date. In sum, petitioners’ history of consistent and substantial losses is indicative of a lack of profit objective.
 
Amway lol.

Seriously.

Let's see how many expenses we can create so we can "make money" by saving on taxes. What a joke.
 
Amway lol.

Seriously.

Let's see how many expenses we can create so we can "make money" by saving on taxes. What a joke.

Once upon a time, I was young and foolish and got into Amway. I wised up quickly and got out. I had actually achieved a fairly high level quickly but realized the scam and got out.

Some of the thing we were taught:

Job bad, Amway good.
Amway is your only hope.
Losing money is success because you are investing in your financial future.
Going into debt is ok - only if you are buying tapes/cds, books and seminars.
Amway saves marriages
Amway IBO's have a 2% divorce rate
Diamonds pay cash for everything
Work hard and invest in the system for 2-5 years and walk the beaches of the world financially free
 
The portion of that computer you use for business is tax deductible. If you claimed the entire cost, you shouldn't be using it for personal use.

And in Canada, computers are capital (not expenses), which means you deduct a portion of the original purchase price annually until there is $1 remaining. I think they're CCA class 8, which is 30%.



It is deductible because it is an expense; if it isn't an expense (a negative cost), you shouldn't be deducting it.

And in Canada, it has to be wholly used for business in order for the square footage to be deductible. Comingled space (using the dining room table for business) means it's not eligible. And it also has to be an expense that's deducted. e.g.: my home office is 5% of the square footage, so I can deduct 5% of my heating and electricity expenses. We don't have a mortgage, so that's about it. Expenses for utilities come to about $250/yr.



Yes, the business use of items is deductible. But you wouldn't be doing/using that stuff for business otherwise. You should not be deducting all your phone costs, for example, if you only call clients once a month.

This is probably one of the 4 most common frauds I have seen for home based businesses. Phone, meal, car, clothing, in that order. I recommend getting a business account to keep things clear when audit time comes. Otherwise, if you're not logging calls, and your revenue is very small, CRA has good reason to demand proof that the phone is used for business at all and without it, rejection is likely.

When I was a frontline agent at the phone company, I would estimate that about half the 'small businesses' (less than 5 employees) deliberately and with full knowledge moved all their personal phones into a business account in order to expense them in the business name. e.g.: a sole prop engineer who has 1 phone she uses for both personal and business puts her husband's phone, three kids' phones, all on some sort of shared plan with one bill in the business name and expensed the whole thing.



They wouldn't be personal expenses when you used them for business if you weren't in business. If you weren't in business, you wouldn't be using the phone as much, the computer as much or anything else.

The only possible exception I can really think of is meals, but that mechanism dries up pretty quickly if you are actually using dining events to promote business. There is no way to justify having friends over to discuss possible sales week after week with no significant sales. That somebody would suggest this is a smart business model with a straight face is why most of the world really feels sorry for Amway salespersons. Having friends over is a business expense. What a big bag of sadness.



So long as the car is used for business purposes, this is fine. If you are simply saying it's for business and then using it for personal stuff, the company is committing tax fraud.

In Canada, if you have a business fleet car, it is assumed to be 100% business use. Non-business use would be evidence of fraud (I think there is an informal 5% mileage allowance for personal use of employees if they are allowed to take the vehicles home after work, and emergencies).

For a personal car, you can expense against proportional mileage, you have to keep a log. i.e.: if you drive it 10% for business, you can expense 10% of the lease, maintenance, gas.



I am aware of them, and many more. I am also aware that small business people abuse the idea, either because they do not understand it or because they are willfully participating in fraud.

My dad and I grew up among entrepreneurs and small business owners and we really felt like outsiders because of how they all took this systematic petty larceny for granted as a good thing. He turned down a few partnership opportunities because their casual pride in having a bag of tricks to defraud the customer, suppliers, and taxman, made him predict he would simply be the next mark.

Here's one my childhood friend told me about a few years ago. They own a cluster of grocery stores here in Vancouver. On Friday and Saturday afternoons the crowds are so dense they are not worried about losing customers, so they shut off the Point of Sale devices and say "debit machine is down, cash only please". Those sales are not logged. The inventory is marked 'spoiled'.

However, CRA is getting suspicious (a similar business they know about is being audited) because of the regularity and because POS systems are actually pretty reliable. They were considering software that is designed to fudge the numbers for Integrated POS/PC registers, but that hit the news lately and he's thinking that particular gravy train may be over as well. Total fraud over the last ten years could be close to a million.



In any case, what's worth pointing out about the claim in the OP is that all of these 'expenses' we're discussing are probably not even what he's talking about... they are not listed in his business expenses. If he had auto expenses, they would have been listed as "auto expenses: $500" - something like that.

What the author mentioned were vague 'incentives' which tells readers nothing. We would need to know more about those to understand how it relates to that tax refund. As a poster pointed out above, for an $815 loss to generate $1594 less taxation, the tax rate would have to be over 200%, which is clearly impossible. Whatever the truth is, it's not revealed in his blog. Bottom line: I think he's fully aware that anybody in this scenario really lost money and is lying to recruit down streams.

The other possibility is that he may have carried several years of losses forward (In Canada, you can do that for up to 7 years), but again, why wouldn't he mention that since it's pretty material to the calculation. I think it's safe to assume this isn't what happened.

I actually do an exercise like this each year: I calculate my taxes with and without my corporation's contribution to my income (I am compensated through special dividend rather than wage). I'm not going to post my "total tax refund" - I'm interested in the *difference* attributable to the business, that way I know a bit more about how much the business is providing me, exactly, when I consider how much time I spend running it. If the net after tax income was less than $10/hr I would close the business immediately.

So my guess is that the author is not calculating the difference between the with and without business tax refund. I would expect that if he's using the $815.44 to offset a median Canadian wage in the 25% income tax bracket, he's reduced his tax burden by about $200. Meaning, his $2200 refund is now $2400. Down $800, up $200, he's made a real net loss of $600 in 2013 from the business.
 
I highlighted the scary part:

The highlighted passage:
petitioners testified that they believe the Amway activity will eventually generate profits

Well, what else are they going to say?

Without knowing more about this case, it does sound like some acquaintances and relatives of mine whom I mentioned in the previous post... there's just this culture that circulates strategies and you either think it will work or you don't.

I have a cousin who is what I call a 'serial bankruptcy pro'. His deliberate strategy is to run up these huge losses in 'ventures' in order to offset his taxable income from the Post Office.

How do you run up these huge expenses? Lease a Mercedes - say you're trying to 'fake it till you make it'. Go to Maui for a month, claim you met people there for business, but the deal fell though. Darn, total write-off. Dine out with friends at expensive restaurants (forget $10 bags of tomatoes - this is about the $40 tenderloins) and say you were asking them to invest as partners but they turned you down. Rent a yacht for the summer. Say you entertained potential clients on it.

And when CRA comes around, swear up and down that - why yes - you are confident that next year will be the breakthrough year for profitability, you've just had some bad luck recently. After all, you're an entrepreneur, and entrepreneurs are smarter than government bureaucrats. Everybody knows that.
 
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blutowski,
Great post. The Amway claims remind me of this bit of tax advice: If you really want to get a huge deduction, have a kid.

I have no idea where this "only looking at the savings" notion comes in. I do here it elsewhere though. "Look at this great new car I have. I saved a thousand dollars on it!" (As if they wouldn't have saved several thousand by not buying a car at all.)

Maybe it's related to the gambler thing where they tend to remember their wins and forget the losses.
 
The highlighted passage:

Well, what else are they going to say?

Without knowing more about this case, it does sound like some acquaintances and relatives of mine whom I mentioned in the previous post... there's just this culture that circulates strategies and you either think it will work or you don't.

I have a cousin who is what I call a 'serial bankruptcy pro'. His deliberate strategy is to run up these huge losses in 'ventures' in order to offset his taxable income from the Post Office.

How do you run up these huge expenses? Lease a Mercedes - say you're trying to 'fake it till you make it'. Go to Maui for a month, claim you met people there for business, but the deal fell though. Darn, total write-off. Dine out with friends at expensive restaurants (forget $10 bags of tomatoes - this is about the $40 tenderloins) and say you were asking them to invest as partners but they turned you down. Rent a yacht for the summer. Say you entertained potential clients on it.

And when CRA comes around, swear up and down that - why yes - you are confident that next year will be the breakthrough year for profitability, you've just had some bad luck recently. After all, you're an entrepreneur, and entrepreneurs are smarter than government bureaucrats. Everybody knows that.

Good post. I believe that IBO's are taught that "success is right around the corner". That you will "make it" as long as you never give up. So many believe that if they keep plodding along and paying for those training seminars and instructional cds, they will eventually strike it rich.

Meanwhile, taxpayers are subsidizing their Amway hobbies which is disguised as a business.
 
Good post. I believe that IBO's are taught that "success is right around the corner". That you will "make it" as long as you never give up. So many believe that if they keep plodding along and paying for those training seminars and instructional cds, they will eventually strike it rich.

There's some research about this. Different angles. One is investigating how a business community that does not tolerate negativity creates an environment where genuine risks are suppressed, so business cases stop being based on reality. That's a topic within organizational behaviour.

On a different level, there's economic psychology research into why small businesses have such a high failure rate, and why some business owners are serial bankruptcies (not of the intentional kind who are mislabelling personal activities as business expenses, but honest repeat failures). It's proposed that there is very little "pre-mortem" thinking in the business plans. There was no sitting down with a list of paths to failure. So, if even one thing goes wrong, there is no contingency plan and no buffer. Every problem is literally unexpected and the entrepreneur is lurching from strategic crisis to strategic crisis instead of navigating around or even heading off problems that were acknowledged as possible and concentrating on streamlining operations.




Meanwhile, taxpayers are subsidizing their Amway hobbies which is disguised as a business.

My experience is that within this community, Amway is just one more passing interest. Over the years, I've seen lots of schemes come and go within these individuals' households as they try one thing after another. It goes through their social group in waves. My cousin that I described in a previous post was feigning a construction contractor thing for awhile, then he went though the motions of being a real estate agent for a few years, then an investment advisor for awhile. Amsoil was his first MLM. He was involved in a bartering thing for awhile. Now it's a digital currency I don't remember the name of, "the safer alternative to bit coin" (he says he's convinced that bitcoin is a CIA snooping technology).

At the end of the day I really just feel sorry for somebody whose life has come to such a state of commingling social and business that every time I went to their house, they were pushing some self-serving business proposition on me. It made him a real bore and we invented excuses not to visit most of the time.

I have always felt that a sign of success is that you don't commingle work and pleasure. I admit this is just a personal bias, of course. I come by it honestly: my dad never discussed his work until I was an adult and actually asked him for advice years into my career.

It was actually a big decision for me to dedicate a home office since I thought it could impact my boundaries. However, the overall life/work balance improved because I could cut out 2 hours of commute a day and can run on my lunch break without worrying about stinking up my cubicle.
 
It was actually a big decision for me to dedicate a home office since I thought it could impact my boundaries. However, the overall life/work balance improved because I could cut out 2 hours of commute a day and can run on my lunch break without worrying about stinking up my cubicle.

What are you eating for lunch?
 
My experience is that within this community, Amway is just one more passing interest. Over the years, I've seen lots of schemes come and go within these individuals' households as they try one thing after another. It goes through their social group in waves. My cousin that I described in a previous post was feigning a construction contractor thing for awhile, then he went though the motions of being a real estate agent for a few years, then an investment advisor for awhile. Amsoil was his first MLM. He was involved in a bartering thing for awhile. Now it's a digital currency I don't remember the name of, "the safer alternative to bit coin" (he says he's convinced that bitcoin is a CIA snooping technology).

At the end of the day I really just feel sorry for somebody whose life has come to such a state of commingling social and business that every time I went to their house, they were pushing some self-serving business proposition on me. It made him a real bore and we invented excuses not to visit most of the time.

I have always felt that a sign of success is that you don't commingle work and pleasure. I admit this is just a personal bias, of course. I come by it honestly: my dad never discussed his work until I was an adult and actually asked him for advice years into my career.

It was actually a big decision for me to dedicate a home office since I thought it could impact my boundaries. However, the overall life/work balance improved because I could cut out 2 hours of commute a day and can run on my lunch break without worrying about stinking up my cubicle.

I bolded the part that I'm commenting on.

I think you really struck an important point. In many cases, people are under the impression that they are serious business builders (possibly due to upline teaching) but in reality, they have a hobby where like minded people get together to socialize. Sort of "playing Amway" if you will.

Anytime a large group of "serious" IBO's get together, I wonder if even 2% of them are making an actual net profit after factoring in all of their expenses? I would say the answer is no.
 
There's some research about this. Different angles. One is investigating how a business community that does not tolerate negativity creates an environment where genuine risks are suppressed, so business cases stop being based on reality. That's a topic within organizational behaviour.

Got a ref? That sounds an interesting read

My experience is that within this community, Amway is just one more passing interest. Over the years, I've seen lots of schemes come and go within these individuals' households as they try one thing after another. It goes through their social group in waves. My cousin that I described in a previous post was feigning a construction contractor thing for awhile, then he went though the motions of being a real estate agent for a few years, then an investment advisor for awhile. Amsoil was his first MLM. He was involved in a bartering thing for awhile. Now it's a digital currency I don't remember the name of, "the safer alternative to bit coin" (he says he's convinced that bitcoin is a CIA snooping technology).

I suspect this group (and I've encountered them too) are literally looking for "get rich quick" and when each thing isn't fast enough they jump to something new. All of them - even trading digitial currencies - have a learning curve and will take time and work to develop in to profitable businesses let alone "wealth".

At the end of the day I really just feel sorry for somebody whose life has come to such a state of commingling social and business that every time I went to their house, they were pushing some self-serving business proposition on me. It made him a real bore and we invented excuses not to visit most of the time.

I have always felt that a sign of success is that you don't commingle work and pleasure. I admit this is just a personal bias, of course. I come by it honestly: my dad never discussed his work until I was an adult and actually asked him for advice years into my career.

I'd says true success has pleasure separate from work, but work is also a pleasure. I suspect even within the employment market, a large large percentage of out-of-work socializing occurs with work colleagues.

It was actually a big decision for me to dedicate a home office since I thought it could impact my boundaries. However, the overall life/work balance improved because I could cut out 2 hours of commute a day and can run on my lunch break without worrying about stinking up my cubicle.

I've worked from home (or the beach, or the airport or wherever!) for nearly 20 years. Can't even imagine doing it otherwise. Even where I have employees in a more conventional business they're at the office and I go there for occasional meetings and otherwise Skype it in.

It's a beautiful day here today, they're in the office working, I'm going to go out and finish the pool deck :) (don't tell 'em!) :cool:
 
Icerat -- can't speak to Canadian tax issues but in the US you have to carefully 'ringfence' business assets versus personal use assets to deduct them from your taxes. Thus, while my husband sometimes works as a contractor, we cannot deduct his computer or our ISP expenses because they are not purely or primarily for business purposes. Trying to do so is a good way to get audited and fined.
 

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