bit_pattern
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Except that concerns over the cost have evidently been allayed:
To the tune of $2.75 billion, apparently
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America's $2.75 billion dollar gift to Israel
- Thread starter bit_pattern
- Start date
Except that concerns over the cost have evidently been allayed:
To the tune of $2.75 billion, apparently
quixotecoyote
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Probably sloppy reporting given that no other source backs up your interpretation.
Interestingly:
Interestingly:
GrouchoMarxist
Cowardly insulter of Buddhism
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Perhaps they intended to say: "The entire deal will be funded by American military aid."
I don't know what the point would be, but at least it would be a complete sentence.
Puppycow
Penultimate Amazing
Yeah, that sentence is incomplete or grammatically odd, and seems to contradict other parts of the article, like this:
bigjelmapro
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It would be interesting to see how Foreign military sales translates to gifts, especially since FMS's over the course of the year for Israel, which would include the purchases of F-35's over the next 15 years, was slightly over 30 billion for 2008: On Foreign Military Sales, which is over 1 billion less than Egypt and over 46 billion less than Saudi Arabia.
This F-35 deal, soon to be followed by the Netherlands, Singapore, Australia, Belgium, Greece, Finland, Denmark, UK, etc. will bring down the burden of this whooping $300 billion program, and per unit costs for the f-35 so other countries will purchase them.
I've read the same article in Reuters, and the nitwits there assume (comments area) that since Israel receives about 2.4-2.7 billion/year of military aid (not gifts), this translates to Israel purchasing the above f-35's. Geniuses there.
This F-35 deal, soon to be followed by the Netherlands, Singapore, Australia, Belgium, Greece, Finland, Denmark, UK, etc. will bring down the burden of this whooping $300 billion program, and per unit costs for the f-35 so other countries will purchase them.
I've read the same article in Reuters, and the nitwits there assume (comments area) that since Israel receives about 2.4-2.7 billion/year of military aid (not gifts), this translates to Israel purchasing the above f-35's. Geniuses there.
bigjelmapro
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Beerina
Sarcastic Conqueror of Notions
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I thought the US reserved the latest and greatest to itself, and maybe some extreme allies like the UK, with the older ones going to less friendly or free nations. Every time it built a newer one, it shifted everybody's level up to the next plane.
Is Saudia Arabia at the same level as Israel?
Is Saudia Arabia at the same level as Israel?
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
No. Saudi Arabia is getting upgraded F-15s. If the F-35 can be considered a 5th-generation fighter, the upgraded F-15 belongs to generation 4.5.
One of the purposes of the F-35 program was to have a 5th-generation fighter that was still suitable for sharing with other nations. It fills the arms gap among U.S. allies, between 4th-generation fighters and the 5th-generation F-22, which incorporates technologies which are decidedly not for export.
Speaking of the Saudis, in light of their recent $90 billion arms deal with the U.S., which scored them the upgraded F-15s, I'm scratching my head trying to figure out why bit_pattern thinks a measly $2.75 billion deal for Israel is at all noteworthy. I mean, the F-35 is an awesome plane, sure. It's probably not as awesome as ten times as many F-15s, though.
bigjelmapro
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F-35's aren't really that big of a jump from the F-16i's Israel currently has. I would've opted for a greater number of the newer F-15se's for its increased range and speed.
WildCat
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Stealth is a huge jump IMHO.
Hutch
A broken man on a Halifax pier, the last of Barret
Just a couple of notes because I work (and have done so for the past 25 years) in the Foreign Military Sales (FMS) field.
One, Thunder is in error by saying the US military will fund it; as others pointed out, the US Army/Navy/Air Force do not have the legal right to provide financial support to foreign governments except where allowed by law (some training, I believe, falls in this and other special aid). But in general, FMS is either Foreign Military Financing (US Aid money given to countries to purchase US military equipment/services), Loans (often 'forgiven'), and the foreign customer providing their own cash for purchasing.
Based on the FY11 budget request, it looks like Israel is due to get around $3,000,000,000 in aid (they normally get the lion's share (see page 128 of http://www.usaid.gov/policy/budget/cbj2011/2011_CBJ_Vol_2.pdf). So I presume this money (and future FMF budgets) will be used to pay the lions share of the F35 purchase.
Or--the US gives Israel our money so that they can spend it in the US of A for our products.
Saudi Arabia (and indeed, most of the Middle East oil-oligarchies) pay us on a cash money basis, albeit that a lot of that cash came out of our pockets buying a commodity that they have in abudance. So at least we're getting some of our oil money back....
And Beerina, all FMS customers want the latest/greatest, and few if any get it. One of the holdups on the Israel deal (IIRC) was that the Israelis wanted some of the encryption codes we use on the aircraft and the Pentagon, in the interests of national security, refused to let go of them. I do not know what compromise was reached, but I do know that there are items on almost any US system we sell that are not released to any FMS customer, no matter how close our relationship.
If you have any questions on what anyone is getting in terms of major deals, go here: http://www.dsca.mil/PressReleases/36-b/36b_index.htm Anything over $15 million in Major Defense Equipment or $50 million total program must by law be notified to Congress. Saudi hasn't been yet, but should be soon.
I rather like this one: http://www.dsca.mil/PressReleases/36-b/2010/Israel_10-41.pdf Thats a lot of gas....
Press on.
One, Thunder is in error by saying the US military will fund it; as others pointed out, the US Army/Navy/Air Force do not have the legal right to provide financial support to foreign governments except where allowed by law (some training, I believe, falls in this and other special aid). But in general, FMS is either Foreign Military Financing (US Aid money given to countries to purchase US military equipment/services), Loans (often 'forgiven'), and the foreign customer providing their own cash for purchasing.
Based on the FY11 budget request, it looks like Israel is due to get around $3,000,000,000 in aid (they normally get the lion's share (see page 128 of http://www.usaid.gov/policy/budget/cbj2011/2011_CBJ_Vol_2.pdf). So I presume this money (and future FMF budgets) will be used to pay the lions share of the F35 purchase.
Or--the US gives Israel our money so that they can spend it in the US of A for our products.
Saudi Arabia (and indeed, most of the Middle East oil-oligarchies) pay us on a cash money basis, albeit that a lot of that cash came out of our pockets buying a commodity that they have in abudance. So at least we're getting some of our oil money back....
And Beerina, all FMS customers want the latest/greatest, and few if any get it. One of the holdups on the Israel deal (IIRC) was that the Israelis wanted some of the encryption codes we use on the aircraft and the Pentagon, in the interests of national security, refused to let go of them. I do not know what compromise was reached, but I do know that there are items on almost any US system we sell that are not released to any FMS customer, no matter how close our relationship.
If you have any questions on what anyone is getting in terms of major deals, go here: http://www.dsca.mil/PressReleases/36-b/36b_index.htm Anything over $15 million in Major Defense Equipment or $50 million total program must by law be notified to Congress. Saudi hasn't been yet, but should be soon.
I rather like this one: http://www.dsca.mil/PressReleases/36-b/2010/Israel_10-41.pdf Thats a lot of gas....
Press on.
bit_pattern
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^^ Thanks for clearing that up, very informative 
bigjelmapro
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Although I don't doubt Hutch's experience in his field, presenting this almost 3 billion per year US aid as purely gifts is quite dishonest.
First and foremost though, the US's private military industry and its involvement in the ME is significantly more developed than that of say African nations, in playing the balance game in maintaining Israel's QME in the region, compared to supplying mostly small arms to competing African tribes. Supplying advanced aircraft to SA and defense systems to Israel, then a few years later, visa versa. This was all done when the US replaced France as Israel's major supplier of arms and commodities, which France was from 1949 to about the late 1960's, of which the US developed the 'Commodity Import Program' or CIP (as the US did with Vietnam), thereby establishing monopolies in Israel, from cashews to hi-tech items.
Mind you, a fair deal, the amount of which is moot, of the US military hardware outside of the aircraft and other advanced systems, often involve the US exporting their outdated weapons systems and munitions supplies. Otherwise, these weapons would simply sit rotting away in warehouses. Who can forget those nice outdated cluster munitions Israel was force to purchase over the last several decades from the US.
Israel's QME and the supplying of weapons to both sides is in addition to the same approach the Russians have been employing for over 50 years. Supply weapons to both sides to destablize the region, then invest in said economies and assist in peace processes between opposing countries. Rinse, repeat. (Ie Iran/Iraq, Syria/Lebanon/Jordan/Egypt, UAE/SA/etc.)
Foreign military aid to Israel, where 24% go into Israel's private military industry, where the US has significant influence in whom Israel selects tenders with, also includes joint R&D projects. Since these are joint-projects, both sides receive payment for exporting such systems and the successors, ie Arrow and THEL. Israel also sells Israeli-developed systems to the US such as TROPHY for use in Iraq for coalition armored vehicles, ontop of supplying mortars and munitions in both Gulf wars and Afghanistan to US troops. The Israeli arms industry also has to export a greater deal in order to turn of a profit since it does receive assistence, much of it is not 'waived'.
U.S. Foreign Aid to Israel
As for Saudi Arabia purchases, sure, these are paid with oil profits (often exorbitant) which the Saudis pay for foreign and direct military purchases. What is left out is the Saudi demand for 35% of these purchases to be offset, thereby taking away American jobs and exporting them to places like Turkey. So double costs (or triple if you include the result of offsets) to the American government/economy in receiving oil profits which US and other foreign companies create in the first place, and providing offsets (which Israel doesn't do to the same effect as SA).
Read about that here: Offsets: The Industrial, Employment and Security Costs of Arms Exports
Foreign military sales to Israel, which include spare parts and the aforementioned jp-8 fuel, are part of of the $30 billion+ per year in sales. Loan guarantees of about 2/3rds of the approximately $3 billion per year to military assistance, of which a further 24% is invested in Israel's private military industry, can be more seen for its ROI down the road. I would see the ROI to be significantly higher from Israel's military assistance and purchases (as in not 'gifts') to be better for the US's economy than compared to the high offsets demanded by the Saudis or any other recipients in the ME/NA/NE regions.
I would like to see the US-Israel equivalent of BARD and BIRD foundations in countries like Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and Yemen, on top of the bi-lateral trade agreements outside of foreign drilled and processed oil such as in SA.
EDIT: In regards to the f-35 purchases, the major holdup, as with the f-16i's, was the demand for Israel to make modifications to the electronic systems to, for example, be modified to be able to use Israeli-made munitions. The encryption bit wasn't not the primary issue here...
First and foremost though, the US's private military industry and its involvement in the ME is significantly more developed than that of say African nations, in playing the balance game in maintaining Israel's QME in the region, compared to supplying mostly small arms to competing African tribes. Supplying advanced aircraft to SA and defense systems to Israel, then a few years later, visa versa. This was all done when the US replaced France as Israel's major supplier of arms and commodities, which France was from 1949 to about the late 1960's, of which the US developed the 'Commodity Import Program' or CIP (as the US did with Vietnam), thereby establishing monopolies in Israel, from cashews to hi-tech items.
Mind you, a fair deal, the amount of which is moot, of the US military hardware outside of the aircraft and other advanced systems, often involve the US exporting their outdated weapons systems and munitions supplies. Otherwise, these weapons would simply sit rotting away in warehouses. Who can forget those nice outdated cluster munitions Israel was force to purchase over the last several decades from the US.
Israel's QME and the supplying of weapons to both sides is in addition to the same approach the Russians have been employing for over 50 years. Supply weapons to both sides to destablize the region, then invest in said economies and assist in peace processes between opposing countries. Rinse, repeat. (Ie Iran/Iraq, Syria/Lebanon/Jordan/Egypt, UAE/SA/etc.)
Foreign military aid to Israel, where 24% go into Israel's private military industry, where the US has significant influence in whom Israel selects tenders with, also includes joint R&D projects. Since these are joint-projects, both sides receive payment for exporting such systems and the successors, ie Arrow and THEL. Israel also sells Israeli-developed systems to the US such as TROPHY for use in Iraq for coalition armored vehicles, ontop of supplying mortars and munitions in both Gulf wars and Afghanistan to US troops. The Israeli arms industry also has to export a greater deal in order to turn of a profit since it does receive assistence, much of it is not 'waived'.
U.S. Foreign Aid to Israel
As for Saudi Arabia purchases, sure, these are paid with oil profits (often exorbitant) which the Saudis pay for foreign and direct military purchases. What is left out is the Saudi demand for 35% of these purchases to be offset, thereby taking away American jobs and exporting them to places like Turkey. So double costs (or triple if you include the result of offsets) to the American government/economy in receiving oil profits which US and other foreign companies create in the first place, and providing offsets (which Israel doesn't do to the same effect as SA).
Read about that here: Offsets: The Industrial, Employment and Security Costs of Arms Exports
Foreign military sales to Israel, which include spare parts and the aforementioned jp-8 fuel, are part of of the $30 billion+ per year in sales. Loan guarantees of about 2/3rds of the approximately $3 billion per year to military assistance, of which a further 24% is invested in Israel's private military industry, can be more seen for its ROI down the road. I would see the ROI to be significantly higher from Israel's military assistance and purchases (as in not 'gifts') to be better for the US's economy than compared to the high offsets demanded by the Saudis or any other recipients in the ME/NA/NE regions.
I would like to see the US-Israel equivalent of BARD and BIRD foundations in countries like Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and Yemen, on top of the bi-lateral trade agreements outside of foreign drilled and processed oil such as in SA.
EDIT: In regards to the f-35 purchases, the major holdup, as with the f-16i's, was the demand for Israel to make modifications to the electronic systems to, for example, be modified to be able to use Israeli-made munitions. The encryption bit wasn't not the primary issue here...
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