America: What's wrong with "socialism", anyway?

[theprestige]

Sort of like Capitalism.. except in Capitalism, the money is horded to a few entities.

I think, if you took a moment or two to consider the real world, you would find that the vast majority of capitalists either spend or invest their money. Hoarding does them no good. Spending and investing, on the other hand, does everybody at least some good.

 

[thaiboxerken]

I think, if you took a moment or two to consider the real world, you would find that the vast majority of capitalists either spend or invest their money. Hoarding does them no good. Spending and investing, on the other hand, does everybody at least some good.

Spending, good. Investing...depends. Didn't something just happen because of crappy investments.. something big?

 

[tyr_13]

Factory worker A makes 50 Thingamajigs in a week.
Factory worker B works harder and makes 300 Thingamajigs in a week.
Factory workers A and B make the same paycheck.
Factory worker B sees no benefit for working harder and drops production down to 50 Thingamajigs in a week, like worker A.
Entire production drops. Soon there are not enough products for the population. Society crumbles.

I see you've worked for Wal-Mart too! Isn't capitalism great? Oh, you were talking about socialism? My mistake.


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I'm a pragmatist. Some systems work better as capitalist ones, some as socialist ones. Police, military, fire departments, education, and health care are the ones I'd say tend to be better socialist than not. I tend to favor as light a regulation as is needed as well, but in some cases that is a lot of regulation, like with food production and housing.

The important part to remember is that which is better as which can and does change.

 

[Nursedan]

Just look at Venezuela. Private industry becomes nationalized, therefore competition is killed, therefore incentive is killed, therefore innovation is killed, therefore the economy stagnates, then crumbles. More entities are nationalized to attempt to stop the economic downturn, and things get worse. Do you know that there are daily brownouts there to conserve electricity? It wasn't always this way.

Socialism eradicates competition and rewards those who work less, rather than those who work more.

There are no success stories of socialist economies.

Name one innovation that came from socialist environment... Can't think of one? Okay, think of an innovation that came from a capitalist environment.... Not so hard, is it?

 

[theprestige]

Spending, good. Investing...depends. Didn't something just happen because of crappy investments.. something big?

Your cherry-pick is showing. If you're going to count the investments that caused the downturn, you should probably also count the investments that produced the heights from which the downturn is turning.

Either that, or stop posting on the Internet, which has been a benefit to people largely through investment.

ETA: Either that, or admit that your only real complaint about capitalism is that it isn't perfect, and your only real reason for preferring socialism is that you have an obvious and unthinking double standard.

 

[thaiboxerken]

Name one innovation that came from socialist environment... Can't think of one? Okay, think of an innovation that came from a capitalist environment.... Not so hard, is it?

There are quite a few scientific discoveries and innovations that came about because of government funding. I don't think a pure socialist country would work, but neither to I think a purely capitalistic one would either.

 

[thaiboxerken]

Your cherry-pick is showing.....

Either that, or stop posting on the Internet, which has been a benefit to people largely through investment.

Oh the irony!

 

[Nursedan]

There are quite a few scientific discoveries and innovations that came about because of government funding. I don't think a pure socialist country would work, but neither to I think a purely capitalistic one would either.

I should've said socialist country, like Venezuela.

 

[theprestige]

Oh the irony!

So you agree that capitalists don't hoard their money, and that investment is better than hoarding?

 

[Travis]

I should've said socialist country, like Venezuela.

Way to cherry pick a socialist country that is dysfunctional. We might as well use Somalia as an example that capitalism doesn't work.

Perhaps Sweden and South Korea would be better contrasts.

 

[Nursedan]

Way to cherry pick a socialist country that is dysfunctional. We might as well use Somalia as an example that capitalism doesn't work.

Perhaps Sweden and South Korea would be better contrasts.

My first post referred to Venezuela.

 

[MattusMaximus]

Down with our socialist fire departments!

 

[Travis]

My first post referred to Venezuela.

I know and you listed a series of events that didn't happen in Sweden which is also a socialist country.

 

[Kthulhut Fhtagn]

So you agree that capitalists don't hoard their money, and that investment is better than hoarding?

The problem is that, in reality, "capitalists" don't invest a clear majority of their money. Investment can be very risky and even seemingly smart investments can result in the loss of substantial amounts of money due to a freak accident. So the wealthy, who I would say comprise the majority of the investor class, do tend to hoard great sum os money rather than spending or investing it. That's just smart, imo, rather than investing great sums of money.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

Can you expand on this? It seems to be a contradiction

He described a situation of unfair compensation that leads to the crumbling of society. Since unfair compensation is not unheard of within laissez faire capitalism, that situation had nothing to do with socialism.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

That ain't' it. That's a progressive tax system

You understand that is only part of it, right? I'm also for nationalised healthcare, transport, some housing for poorer people, education, power and various other things.

The tax is just the start. Mwahahaha.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

ask anyone who lived in the USSR or North Korea.

they will tell you ALLLLLLLL about..the "glories" of Socialism.

I really really want to stop people saying this.

The USSR, particularly after the rise of Stalin, bears about as much resemblance to Socialism as the Democratic Republic of Congo does to Democracy.

In order to understand what socialism is, read socialist writings don't just say "Hur hur, USSR".


Oh, and what makes it even funnier is that a lot of people in Russia actually miss the USSR. They want it back.

 

[Legend]

Factory worker A makes 50 Thingamajigs in a week.
Factory worker B works harder and makes 300 Thingamajigs in a week.
Factory workers A and B make the same paycheck.
Factory worker B sees no benefit for working harder and drops production down to 50 Thingamajigs in a week, like worker A.
Entire production drops. Soon there are not enough products for the population. Society crumbles.

ask anyone who lived in the USSR or North Korea.

they will tell you ALLLLLLLL about..the "glories" of Socialism.

Just look at Venezuela. Private industry becomes nationalized, therefore competition is killed, therefore incentive is killed, therefore innovation is killed, therefore the economy stagnates, then crumbles. More entities are nationalized to attempt to stop the economic downturn, and things get worse. Do you know that there are daily brownouts there to conserve electricity? It wasn't always this way.

Socialism eradicates competition and rewards those who work less, rather than those who work more.

There are no success stories of socialist economies.

Name one innovation that came from socialist environment... Can't think of one? Okay, think of an innovation that came from a capitalist environment.... Not so hard, is it?

It's the first part I have a problem with.
And who decides what is Too Much.
And people are going to resent working harder and getting less.

I am not against a net or social programs per se, but if the above is Socialism then I am against it for the reasons stated and one other big one:It Won't Work. People work better when they will directily profit from it.

Is it just me, or are many people confusing "socialism" with "communism"?



Alex.

 

[Blue Mountain]

Is it just me, or are many people confusing "socialism" with "communism"?



Alex.

An all too common response in the United States. To quite a few, any hint of socialism is merely the snout of the communist bear poking into the sacred tent of American capitalism. The rise of the Tea Party faction in the Republican Party in response to Obama's attempts to bring a small measure of sanity to the U.S. health cars system is one example.

 

[Legend]

An all too common response in the United States. To quite a few, any hint of socialism is merely the snout of the communist bear poking into the sacred tent of American capitalism. The rise of the Tea Party faction in the Republican Party in response to Obama's attempts to bring a small measure of sanity to the U.S. health cars system is one example.

Ah, yes. Thanks.

I did consider this, I mean, I've always basically considered Australia a socialist country, so to hear these comparisons to Stalin and Korea and workers not being paid the same for equal work had me a little discombobulated. That word is relevant, though totally superfluous; I use because I can .

Alex.